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RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/1/2007 6:33:31 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Carry on like that MsM and I will "get 'em off"
Specially for you lol

G'nite OZ its now 01:30 AM UK time.

(in reply to MissMagnolia)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/2/2007 2:30:27 AM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		Miss Magnolia, is that the sum total of your contribution to the debate?

If you'd rather play thread cop than display your interest in and viewpoint on the topic, perhaps you'd like to  comment on this:


quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

What we need lack of reality are facts that address the issue. Not list a lot of other facts that do not!


The italics are his, not mine. I'm curious as to why you consider my comment offensive but not his?

Afterwards, I'm sure you'd be treated to seeks "getting them off for you" if you're very lucky.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/2/2007 3:42:47 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		I'll start by saying how fed up I am of hearing how "immigrants are evil, because.........."

That out of the way, the presence of so many new people is definitely putting a strain on public resources; we've had a few brave souls responsible for providing public services speak out on the issue - and it stands to reason in the absence of such testimony that if one has more people requiring more services (not to mention more complex services) then the cost will rise, and should funding not be forthcoming, there will be a problem.

Yes, many if not most of these new people are working and contributing income tax and NI. However, it would seem that when it comes to local funding through the council tax, their contribution in no way reflects the additional cost expenditure - this simply because from evidence from up and down the land, the new people are sharing houses - whether to save their income to send home or because the cost of housing is too high is all the same - so whereas I, living alone, pay around £100-00 per month in council tax, the house next door might be occupied by ten people, paying only £120-00. This is not evil on the part of the new people - they are living within a system which allows them to take advantage of the situation. But if it costs £100-00 to provide me with local resources (libraries, schools, police, refuse collection etc), then it stands to reason that my neighbours paying only £12-00 each will leave the system wanting - and in the absence of additional funding from central government (which makes up a large proportion of councils' income, there will be a shortfall. This of course would be met by additional funding from the new peoples' income tax contributions, but this does not seem to be happening. Factor in the need to provide extra language resources through council funds as well, and the shortfall becomes even more acute.

As for housing, I find it absolutely disgusting that anyone - politicians especially, should blame immigrants (of whatever type or origin) for the failure to meet the need. It is down to the policies adopted by central government that housing is in short supply - a cynic such as myself might see the failure to build for the future as a deliberate strategy to push prices higher and provide the feel good factor of high equity and consequent ability to keep the country afloat on consumer credit spending - and this was the case before this latest wave of new people began arriving. The problem now being, that producing sufficient housing may bring prices down, bringing negative equity, repossessions and unpayable credit extensions to millions - hardly popular. Look to Mrs Thatcher for the source of this dire situation.

If housing is in short supply, then it stands to reason - however unpalatable it is - that a new arrival with children must get priority over a native who - though his/her conditions are poor - has somewhere to sleep. This isnt favouritism, its common sense - unless we are prepared to have families living on the pavements like in Calcutta. But this isnt the fault of the new people - again, they are benefitting from a situation we have produced.

What I'd like to see is for everyone to stop seeking the scapegoat of immigrants to blame our problems on. FFS, we have more than enough nouse and resource to sort our problems out. The only real worry about all these new arrivals is the water supply in the south east - and that wouldnt be an issue if we either got away from being London-centric or put in new supply pipelines from the wetter areas of the country.

In the end it all comes down to money, as usual.

E



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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to RealityLicks)
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RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/2/2007 4:41:40 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Lady Ellen, Whilst i agree that selling off the housing stock wasn`t Thatchers best policy, she is not totally to blame for this situation. It`s 17 years since she left office and both Conservative and Labour governments since then have failed to rectify the situation. As far as i am aware there is still a right to buy policy operating, so if it was such a bad idea why didnt Blair or Brown do away with it. Like it or not immigration does have a bearing on housing stock, schooling and health. I am not blaming the immigrants themselves, just Labour for not having a decent immigration policy and for failing to provide enough facilities for the people they are letting into the UK.

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/2/2007 4:55:39 AM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline 		Missturbation would not believe that immigrants asylum seekers or refugees can got priority on housing lists.

Please Seeks that is not true, don't put wordsin my mouth or twist them.
What i said was :-
'I'm far from saying you are wrong here but can you back these statements up. You claim they are fact but where did you get this factual? information from?'

I asked you for factual proof, i didn't say i didn't believe you were speaking the truth.

this quote is extracted from a document that outlines the improvements that the new (late 90s I think )human rights legislation  will introduce into British law.
 
Current legislation ie pre human rights prevent street homelessness among families; most families with children who are homeless are automatically in priority need and entitled to be re-housed by the local authority. However, existing legislation fails to prevent the use of temporary accommodation for families which is often of poor quality. This is due to a shortage of affordable housing and pressure on local authorities in areas of high demand. Placing families in temporary accommodation is the only way that some local authorities can currently fulfil their homelessness duties.
This does not prove immigrants get priority in a discriminatory way. Of course it does say that those with children who are homeless as immigrants are, would take priority but i see nothing wrong with that. They are in greater need than those who are housed over here.

 

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/2/2007 4:59:58 AM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline 		While i understand what you are asking here, it`s just as difficult to prove housing policy doesnt favour immigrants, due to its inherent nature.
I agree totally but as Trevor Phillips says 'there is said to be a problem.' Noone backs it up with any facts and figures, they just go around stating it as fact.
 
I just wonder how sucessful an inquiry can be that on one side has a man stating discrimination doesn't happen, and a public on the other who go around stating fact they can't back up.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/2/2007 5:06:03 AM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline 		Try the BBC website or any broadsheet paper's website, maybe the Refugee Council, its not hard to get more details but you won't discover many facts on collarme

Easy tiger. I put a link to the news source for factual info. Everything i have stated in my op is what was said on the news.


_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to RealityLicks)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/2/2007 5:29:30 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Havent read your whole post LadyE but I just wanted to dive in and say that I have never said that individual immigrants are evil, with the exception of the brain dead Afro kids who go around shooting one another. Yes I know some are 2nd/3rd generation born here. but do they not demonstrate a major cultural seperation?

RealityLicks: it is true I have had a minor little dig at you with a twist on your name but I have also criticised the content of your posts on a point by point basis..You on the other hand as far as I recall have  simply told me that I dont know what I am talking about.

Missturbation: PoliteSub has explained how immigrants with children can leap to the front of the queue with regard to housing needs. This is the law. The quote I gave you explains that and says that things will get "even worse" , (not their view of course) when EU human rights articles are incorporated into British Law.
adding: a 2nd read of your posts Missturbation shows that you know how it can happen and agree with it
******* expletive deleted lol

That is why  Missturbation and RealityLicks must remain in the naughty corner.
Two subs together so at least you can sympathise with one another.
Talk about me is forbidden!

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 11/2/2007 5:53:10 AM >

(in reply to missturbation)
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RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/2/2007 5:41:10 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:

LadyE
If housing is in short supply, then it stands to reason - however unpalatable it is - that a new arrival with children must get priority over a native who - though his/her conditions are poor - has somewhere to sleep. This isnt favouritism, its common sense - unless we are prepared to have families living on the pavements like in Calcutta. But this isnt the fault of the new people - again, they are benefitting from a situation we have produced.


LadyE peeerleese. Its not common sense at all. It represents a complete failure to forsee the consequences of their ie the lawmakers, stupidly idealistic social policies.
They are indeed members of the PC brigade. who, he whose name shall not be spoken even in jest claim, do not exist

Another example:
Look how inconveniencing legitimate gun owners has curbed gun crime.
or
How giving mad youth soft option sentences for the first 5/6 years of their criminal careers has reduced street crime
I could go on you know but I am sure you catch my drift

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/2/2007 5:51:04 AM   
InnocentYoungSub


Posts: 210
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

We're deamonizing people who have risked life and limb to come across the border, just so they can help support their families back home. None of them are taking jobs away from Americans. They do all the stuff in this country that no one else wants to do.


What planet do you live on? Hey buddy, I'm a HOUSE PAINTER. You're TALKING to someone who is directly affected by illegal labor. I know plenty of painters here in my town who have been in this business for 20 and 30 years, and now they're not making it. Why? All this cheap competition from people who aren't supposed to even be here according to the law. I guess the yuppies don't care if they sell their fellow Americans down the river in order to pay less to have their house painted or their lawn mowed. Then again, they probably don't view us as truly their countrymen in the first place. I suppose when certain people say "jobs aren't being taken from Americans" its actually not a lie because within their mind we're not real Americans anyway, right? We're just white trash. Who cares about us? Obviously its not Washington, or you, sir.




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RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/2/2007 5:51:45 AM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline 		Missturbation: PoliteSub has explained how immigrants with children can leap to the front of the queue with regard to housing needs. This is the law. The quote I gave you explains that and says that things will get "even worse" , (not their view of course) when EU human rights articles are incorporated into British Law.

Yes but it doesn't say that immigrants who are homeless will jump in front of the British who are homeless in the housing q. Now that would be discrimination.
 
That is why  Missturbation and RealityLicks must remain in the naughty corner.
Two subs together so at least you can sympathise with one another.
Talk about me is forbidden!
I actually think you should go in the naughty corner for not listening and twisting the truth to fit your agenda.
To be pedantic i'm not a sub to you or anyone in these forums so i will and have permission from Sir to speak my mind.
I have always enjoyed tasting forbidden fruit, so let the speaking of you commence.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/2/2007 6:02:51 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Missturbation: I am larfing with you not at you.
Whats your opinion of InnocentYoungSubs post above your last one.
Happens, here as well you know.
With our class system I should guess the indifference at the "top" is even more pronounced.

By the way while you are in the naughty corner get Reality to show you how to use quotes.
It would make your posts easier to read.
Pay attention now.....
if * = [  ie substituting a star for open square bracket then

*quote] name if you wish
text.........endtext
*/quote]

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 11/2/2007 6:12:24 AM >

(in reply to missturbation)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/2/2007 6:25:20 AM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline 		Honestly???????? Just sounds a little bitter to me. 
 
quote:

Then again, they probably don't view us as truly their countrymen in the first place. I suppose when certain people say "jobs aren't being taken from Americans" its actually not a lie because within their mind we're not real Americans anyway, right? We're just white trash. Who cares about us? Obviously its not Washington, or you, sir.


On the following :-
 
quote:

You're TALKING to someone who is directly affected by illegal labor. I know plenty of painters here in my town who have been in this business for 20 and 30 years, and now they're not making it. Why? All this cheap competition from people who aren't supposed to even be here according to the law.


I can totally understand his opinion and the anger when his livelihood is being threatened. However i would question his reference to people who are here illegally. Some of the cheap competition he refers to probably comes from immigrants who are legally entitled to be here.
 
quote:

*/quote] Pay attention now.....
if * = [  ie substituting a star for open square bracket
then *quote] text.........endtext


I did and i'm hoping it worked lol.


< Message edited by missturbation -- 11/2/2007 6:27:27 AM >

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/2/2007 6:35:42 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		First Missturbation make that first star * a square bracket [ and it would have worked.
You can always do a test post
click preview to see if it has worked then
go back to post then
cancel
OK ?
adding:Good I see you've got it.
You can leave the naughty cornernow and always speak your mind, that is what a Forum is for

In the UK it  is both legal and illegal immigrants who are reducing wage rates and taking jobs.
As a native born either American or Brit why should they be expected to see their standard of living reduced due to a misguide immigration.policy and a lax border control.
Doesn't seem right to me

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 11/2/2007 6:38:31 AM >

(in reply to missturbation)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/2/2007 7:13:15 AM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline
quote:

In the UK it  is both legal and illegal immigrants who are reducing wage rates and taking jobs.
As a native born either American or Brit why should they be expected to see their standard of living reduced due to a misguide immigration.policy and a lax border control.
Doesn't seem right to me


Agreed, but to state this is discrimination doesn't seem right to me. As i understand it the immigrants will work for less money, less rights and longer hours. Employers are not discriminating against Brits by employing the immigrants, they are saving outgoing costs.
I will not claim this is right but if you wanted to buy a collar for example and someone was selling it for £10 and another for £20, which would you buy? I'm damn sure you would go for the option that would save you money.



_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/2/2007 7:35:32 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Back to the naughty corner for you MsM. I knew I should have kept you there.
You think then that the UK political/economic policy should be set up to benefit employers and immigrants and disadvantage the "werkers" ?
Wage savings are almost certainly not passed on. Much work is seasonal Kids need school places...etc etc

You are are even more right wing than I am.
Henceforth I shall think of you as Attila the Hen the 2nd.
Mrs T was number 1.


(in reply to missturbation)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/2/2007 7:47:27 AM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline
quote:

You think then that the UK political/economic policy should be set up to benefit employers and immigrants and disadvantage the "werkers" ?


No i'm not saying that lol.
I'm saying the reality is that most of us faced with a cheaper option will take it.
My question is and you keep avoiding it, can this really be classed as discrimination which is the whole point of the entire thread?

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/2/2007 8:01:48 AM   
EPGAH


Posts: 500
Joined: 12/25/2006
Status: offline 		Actually, it sounds more like a case where discrimination is NEEDED to protect the "native" economy...I'm STILL waiting for all this "cheap" illegal labor to produce lower prices...Fruit (The item most commonly associated with illegal pickers) has about TRIPLED in price where I live, although the number of illegals has gone up, so shouldn't prices be going DOWN? Or does having more people around produce more demand, allowing them to drive prices still higher, regardless of any "wage savings"?

P.S. Tyson--who literally bring in illegals by the busload--is NO LONGER the cheapest brand!

< Message edited by EPGAH -- 11/2/2007 8:04:10 AM >

(in reply to missturbation)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/2/2007 8:05:36 AM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline
quote:

Actually, it sounds more like a case where discrimination is NEEDED to protect the "native" economy...


Interesting point, i'll have to think on that one

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to EPGAH)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/2/2007 8:19:24 AM   
DMFParadox


Posts: 1405
Joined: 9/11/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

You may be partially correct, the sudden burst of competence of our ICE Agents may have something to do with the upcoming elections, OR it might have to do with millions of international tresspassers who marched through American streets, chanting in mixed Spanish and broken English, waving flags of a "certain other country", and our flag UPSIDE DOWN--UNDER theirs! (A double insult, or maybe showing that America is in distress because of them, since flying a flag upside-down is an international symbol of distress...)
You are absolutely right about vigilante actions, but the presence of illegals DOES provide a disincentive for companies to offer Americans what we believe we're worth (And then they turn right around and whine about "being exploited"--they "risked life and limb" to be exploited--And they could've avoided it all by just staying home!)
These "extra" people will need places to live, so we'll all have to squeeze in closer together...I think they call such conditions "tenements"?
They'll need to be fed, which is the primary reason the agriculture industry "needs" illegals (The agricultural industry could mechanize further)
Also remember, the jobs they take are jobs Americans COULD take, so they either steal welfare and WIC benefits, or they force Americans onto the "dole" instead!
Their loyalties are either divided or lay entirely in their old countries...This is NOT conducive to a nation, let alone "national security"!
And most importantly, the very thing you lionize them for--sending money back home--is exactly what is their worst "feature": Taking money OUT of America's already "slowing" economy! (Chrysler is laying off 12,000 workers just today...It's front-page news!)
America already OFFICIALLY puts billions into Mexico's economy, but it has done no good, and furthermore, this extra money encourages others to dig the gold out of America!

Oh, and the language thing...If they want to stay here, and they're such good people, etc., the least show of good faith would be learning the language, rather than forcing us to bifurcate?


As for the economy, the cycle turns.  But don't blame the immigrants.  American society is riding the wave of complex information and social systems.  The infrastructure and gross production are getting neglected a bit in the excess of attention spent on support services, and music/entertainment.  What's amazing about this day and age though is that effort spent on, say, entertainment, and the innovations resulting from it, can have in very few steps an impact on factory productivity.

The biggest problem is government regulation.  It makes our lives safer and healthier, but it also slows us down...  more attention I feel needs to be spent on regulating the  regulators, because the day-to-day operation of our beauracracy is passing on largely unnoticed... and it's what has the greatest effect on commerce and qualitiy of life.  NOT immigration; generally speaking, the immigrants are not taking jobs from us... they are doing jobs that otherwise would simply not get done, they save us money and time.  Christ, they're almost a slave class.  Maids, day care, orange pickers... they don't lower the quality of life for us, they raise it.  I for one would much rather be a skilled employee making enough money to buy a house, et al., and if I were spending more on oranges then I might not be able to do that.

Hey, guess what?  You could start a business and hire some mexicans, how about that?  Then you get your cake and eat it too; raising the quality of life for americans (you) AND immigrants.  And the gross national product to boot.  But most people don't think like that.  They want to stay lazy, and wish the problems in their own lives away.  Or tell the government to fix it.  Ugh.


_____________________________

bloody hell, get me some aspirin and a whiskey straight

"The role of gender in society is the most complicated thing I’ve ever spent a lot of time learning about, and I’ve spent a lot of time learning about quantum mechanics." - Randall Munroe

(in reply to EPGAH)
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