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RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/2/2007 8:40:59 AM   
EPGAH


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DMFParadox
As for the economy, the cycle turns.  But don't blame the immigrants.  American society is riding the wave of complex information and social systems.  The infrastructure and gross production are getting neglected a bit in the excess of attention spent on support services, and music/entertainment.  What's amazing about this day and age though is that effort spent on, say, entertainment, and the innovations resulting from it, can have in very few steps an impact on factory productivity.
Hey, guess what?  You could start a business and hire some mexicans, how about that?  Then you get your cake and eat it too; raising the quality of life for americans (you) AND immigrants.  And the gross national product to boot.  But most people don't think like that.  They want to stay lazy, and wish the problems in their own lives away.  Or tell the government to fix it.  Ugh.

I'm sorry, what?
Exactly what part of the infrastructure do the "immigrants" (More and more of which nowadays are illegal) not stress? Education? Medical? Electrical? Water? Sewage? Hell, even Internet is now offered in Spanish--pretty amazing for a people who are only here to "Do the Jobs Americans Won't Do"(TM)!
(And note, I am NOT saying we haven't neglected the infrastructure; we have indeed, but there's no need to "stress-test" a neglected infrastructure with a few MILLION more unpaid or partially-unpaid "customers"!)
LadyEllen seems to want to admire the immigrants' "cleverness" at having found a way to cheat the system, or at least property-taxes, paying in less while still making ever-increasing demands (pulling out MORE) on the services funded by the very taxes they're cheating! Yes, very "clever"--now pay up! Or should legitimate citizens have to pay more to cover the shortfall? I think that will only increase the resentment...
(Apologies requested in advance if I misinterpreted your post, LadyEllen)
As to hiring immigrants, that sounds like a great, if hypocritical idea...Hiring the very people who are overtaxing (And tax-evading) in our country?
Plus, most CHOOSE not to be able to understand me...After 159 years, you'd think they could either stay on their side of a border set by a war they started (and lost!) or learn at least a rudimentary level of our language before crossing...
As to LEGAL border-crossing being too expensive, it's SAFER, and even "coyotes" charge for their ILLEGAL services! Plus they wouldn't have to worry about "heartless" ICE agents "breaking up families" when the illegals CHOOSE to leave their kids in America "for a better life"!
And as you said, it's maids, nannies, and orange-pickers coming from Mexico (And MS13 and other criminal enterprises setting up "branch offices" in America, but people overlook that, 'cause it's "racist", right?) I'm a computer-repairman, having someone working for me who can't even understand the language would be a significant barrier to learning!
Oddly, this is being "discovered" in underfunded public schools across the nation--and the illegals want us to cut funding in half, and set up a "separate but equal" Spanish-language set of classes! In addition to violating "Brown vs. Board of Education", it's a FINANCIALLY stupid idea...especially considering that as stated above, the invaders have found a way to pay less than their share of the costs for the educational system AND they have more children on average than Americans or even LEGAL immigrants!
Their whole culture seems to recoil from learning and assimilating the way fictional vampires recoil from a crucifixes! Of course, this is ONLY an attempt to preserve their culture, right? As I stated in another post, their culture is what made THEIR country the way THEY wanted it. OUR country is (more or less) the way WE want it, and since it's good enough for them to (continuously) invade, why should WE change for THEM, rather than THEM change for US?
As to the quality of life, I don't see how MORE and NOISIER neighbors, MORE crime, MORE graffiti improves anything...Maybe I just didn't take the class "Gangland Blight as Art"?

P.S. Their status as a slave class is VOLUNTARY, and is no worse than ours would be if we invaded Mexico--Heck, check Mexico's immigration laws: LEGALS are not even allowed to own property or hold office! Our LEGAL immigration system is much more open than theirs, and they still choose to SNEAK in, rather than WAIT to come in legally, or even better, STAY HOME and improve Mexico!

< Message edited by EPGAH -- 11/2/2007 8:43:36 AM >

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RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/2/2007 9:04:23 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		Epgah: you've summed it up nicely there
.The only area I would disagree is Language. I think multi lingualism is a good thing but no special services at public expense  should be provided for those who cant speak the native lingo.

For example in the UK we get official docs. in many different Asian languages. Due to expense I think the PC brigade is waking up to that one and things appear to be slowly changing.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 11/2/2007 9:06:13 AM >

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RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/2/2007 9:26:58 AM   
EPGAH


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Status: offline 		Well, in fairness, in America here, the "Multiple languages at TAXPAYER expense" bit was an Executive Order that Clinton made just before he left office, to make a worse place for Bush II to "inherit"! (Which may or may not be why he pardoned that drug kingpin)
HOWEVER, Bush has had 7 YEARS to fix it, and instead, he has been making it worse, up to, but not including the amnesty he tried to pass! That only got stopped because Americans were vocal in our more civilized way--phonecalls, faxes, physical and electronic mails--rather than marches in the street under an enemy flag...We Americans have JOBS, we have to pay taxes--in fact, MORE taxes to support the invading slackers--so we can't just run out and throw a public tantrum if things don't go OUR way!
In an ironic/shameful note, some of the LEGAL immigrants who participated in those "protest" tantrums were fired, and are suing to get their jobs back. Since it was a VOLUNTARY anti-American act, why has our justice-system ejected those cases out-of-hand?
And you're half-right: Multilingualism is OK, but America is an ENGLISH-speaking country, we should not be FORCED to learn any other country's language ON OUR OWN LAND! I agree that if we want to do business with Country X, then we could learn Country X's language, at least partially, to make Country X's inhabitants feel more at home, and perhaps get a more favorable deal...BUT that is an OPTION, not an entitlement, and it cuts both ways: Since the foreigns are coming to America and want American money (On a scale greater than what they could get at home), then they should learn English! If they don't want English, then they shouldn't accept our money, either, since there is LOTS of English printed on our "paper" money, and our stock certificates, and even MOST of our coins are still stamped with "In God We Trust"--in English! (Oddly, they haven't objected to that!)
Our national anthem should be especially involable, especially given the horrible alleged "translation" that they were pushing for us to accept!
If they insist on being treated as if they were in their own country, we could do that too: Lower wages for illegals to match what they'd get in their own country, and try to follow THEIR country's immigration laws--especially Mexico's super-harsh ones--as stated above!

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RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/2/2007 9:38:51 AM   
missturbation


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Status: offline 		Just wondering per chance if anyone is going to answer the questions i actually asked at the beginning of my thread?
 
quote:

This threw me a little as i have just been thinking i feel sorry for most of these immigrants, that have come here for political reasons. That if anyone was being discriminated against, it was them.
So my question here is do you believe there is discrimination? And if you do, who against?
He didn't say there MAY be a problem, or POSSIBLY a problem which leads me to wonder - How independent can an inquiry be, when he obviously falls into the category of not believing there is any discrimination against us, or even that there may be?
3. The reporter then asked Trevor Phillips if he thought we as a nation were at a point where we could be adult enough to discuss this possible problem? 
Can we?


I'm all for healthy debate but this thread was really aimed at the discrimination occuring and i don't really see it being discussed. And before someone says it, yes i know i cant control the way a thread goes but this is going way off what it was intended as.


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RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/2/2007 9:41:17 AM   
RCdc


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Status: offline 		People without children, regardless of employment or ethnic origin are low priority and will not be allowed to go on housing lists, or are discouraged, simply because they will not fair well on the points system and therefore will never move up the list.
 
Those with families are different however, but it does depend on the number of dependants and the area you apply.
Yes - like all public services or other organisations - immigration does put a strain on housing.  However, I believe legal immigrants don't really place a huge strain (unlike say, refugees) on council housing in this present age.  I don't have figures, only personal experience and think most of the media frenzy you see about housing is on the whole scare stories.
 
I think it is important as RL pointed out - to see the difference between legal, refugee etc... even refugees don;t effect council housing until they are allowed to become legal as they are kept in half way houses/camps/flats which are temp.
 
Peace
the.dark.

< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 11/2/2007 9:43:03 AM >

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RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/2/2007 10:16:20 AM   
mya75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

People without children, regardless of employment or ethnic origin are low priority and will not be allowed to go on housing lists, or are discouraged, simply because they will not fair well on the points system and therefore will never move up the list.
 
Those with families are different however, but it does depend on the number of dependants and the area you apply.
Yes - like all public services or other organisations - immigration does put a strain on housing.  However, I believe legal immigrants don't really place a huge strain (unlike say, refugees) on council housing in this present age.  I don't have figures, only personal experience and think most of the media frenzy you see about housing is on the whole scare stories.
 
I think it is important as RL pointed out - to see the difference between legal, refugee etc... even refugees don;t effect council housing until they are allowed to become legal as they are kept in half way houses/camps/flats which are temp.
 
Peace
the.dark.

Nicely stated ...

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RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/2/2007 10:26:28 AM   
EPGAH


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
People without children, regardless of employment or ethnic origin are low priority and will not be allowed to go on housing lists, or are discouraged, simply because they will not fair well on the points system and therefore will never move up the list.
Those with families are different however, but it does depend on the number of dependants and the area you apply.
Yes - like all public services or other organisations - immigration does put a strain on housing.  However, I believe legal immigrants don't really place a huge strain (unlike say, refugees) on council housing in this present age.  I don't have figures, only personal experience and think most of the media frenzy you see about housing is on the whole scare stories.

Yes, but don't policies like this simply encourage immigrants to breed, to take advantage of loopholes in the law, and/or public sympathy?
I can say this with more certainty, since America has a much more egregious loophole, in that a certain Constitutional Amendment grants the children of illegals "birthright" citizenship, just for having been popped out on American soil! (Originally, this law was noble, it gave the children of slaves citizenship, but as always, if you don't explicitly spell out the INTENT of the law in the LETTER of the law, later generations will pervert the SPIRIT of the law!)
This is much worse than it initially appears, because that child (perhaps with some "coaching"/guilt-trips from fellow invaders?) can apply to have its family let in, then they can get THEIR families in...and so on, such that letting one in becomes letting 40 in. This process is given the delightful sobriquet "Chain Migration", but I think a more fitting term would be "Spearhead", since one child (The little point at the tip) can PUSH THROUGH a much wider number of invaders...All of whom would claim to be "legal", and none will leave willingly...(C'mon, think of the spear...what happens once the point penetrates? The rest of the spearhead forces the wound open wider, and the barbs at the back prevent easy removal!)

< Message edited by EPGAH -- 11/2/2007 10:31:56 AM >

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RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/2/2007 10:46:44 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

Yes, but don't policies like this simply encourage immigrants to breed, to take advantage of loopholes in the law, and/or public sympathy?

 
No more than it encourages ANYONE to 'breed'.
 
quote:

...(C'mon, think of the spear...what happens once the point penetrates? The rest of the spearhead forces the wound open wider, and the barbs at the back prevent easy removal!)

 
[font="Times New Roman"]I think of the spear and where I would like to see it penetrate, however, your eyes would be watering...

 
the.dark.

< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 11/2/2007 10:49:58 AM >

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RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/2/2007 11:10:28 AM   
EPGAH


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
I think of the spear and where I would like to see it penetrate, however, your eyes would be watering...
the.dark.

How adult of you! Either you want to castrate invading illegals as I do, or you meant that as a dig against me! Did anyone ever tell you there's a difference between being witty and being RUDE? Invading someone else's house without permission is considered rude, and same with another person's COUNTRY...Your post veers toward rude, but let's assume you meant illegal foreigns should be castrated...
If not, I encourage you to leave whatever gated-community utopia you're hiding in, and come to Wal-Mart, where you can see first-hand a couple with dozens of little hordelings--none of whom can speak any English--knocking things off the shelves, pocketing things (I'm sure they MEANT to pay for it!), etc. The manager of the local Wal-Mart wishes a license were required for their "type" to breed...Perhaps because replacing broken/stolen items is expensive? (NOT always the same couple, either! If it were, I could assume that couple was an aberration, rather than the norm for illegals...)
Your tagline says "Take only photographs, leave only footprints"...If illegals did take such a low-profile approach, perhaps they'd be more tolerated, instead of flaunting their illegality and inability to learn English in everyones' faces?

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RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/2/2007 11:24:52 AM   
missturbation


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quote:

Yes, but don't policies like this simply encourage immigrants to breed, to take advantage of loopholes in the law, and/or public sympathy?


If anything i see a lot of british people having children to take advantages of loop holes in the law and our benefit, housing system. I'm also not sure the use of the word breed here isn't just a tad too malicious and said in disgust by you. Everyone has the right to have children.
 
quote:

If not, I encourage you to leave whatever gated-community utopia you're hiding in, and come to Wal-Mart, where you can see first-hand a couple with dozens of little hordelings--none of whom can speak any English--knocking things off the shelves, pocketing things (I'm sure they MEANT to pay for it!), etc. The manager of the local Wal-Mart wishes a license were required for their "type" to breed...Perhaps because replacing broken/stolen items is expensive? (NOT always the same couple, either! If it were, I could assume that couple was an aberration, rather than the norm for illegals...)


Again i will say you are describing a lot of Brit families here too. Again the venom implied with your use of the word breed is deplorable.
 
You seem to be missing the whole point of the thread anyway. I'm asking if there really is discrimination against the Brits and the immigrants are favoured. Americans in your case.
 
From your posts so far all i see is you being prejudice about them and suggesting they should be discriminated against.

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If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

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RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/2/2007 11:45:37 AM   
EPGAH


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Status: offline 		Yes, it is venomous and intentional, because in America, the welfare system gives MORE money to people who have MORE kids...Whether or not they support them with that money, or just spend it on alcohol, cigarettes and illegal drugs is their decision! This has led to some calling pregnant foreigners "Welfare Baby Mills" (Analogy to puppy mills, which are universally considered deplorable, whereas "everyone has the right to have children", so having more to get more money is considered what, clever?)...
But this gives an inherent bias in favor of the foreigns: They don't HAVE to work (officially...incoming cash is sometimes conveniently "forgotten" so as not to reduce or stop the Gravy Train) to support the extra children, they will take more resources to educate (And even more, given the innate resistance to education conferred by their "culture")...Then they get to complain about overcrowding--which was also voluntary--starvation of their "extra" children (With cigarettes and brand-new SUVs, how can they afford food, too? Americans aren't giving our invaders enough!) and if deported, they whine, "What about our CHILDREN?"
And yes, I admit, there are certain fringe-groups here in America that have more public-supported children as a form of "passive protest", AKA Bleeding "The Beast" (Our government, never mind that this very Beast FEEDs them--how ungrateful!)
Yet noone in the media--let alone in government--has yet had the guts to question who FORCED them to have unlimited children in a country that resents and/or hates them and/or their intrusion (Or at least their unrelenting greed and ingratitude!)! If not forced, then perhaps a proverb like, "If you can't feed it, don't breed it" would be in order, as practiced by MOST citizens. Having fewer children allows you to concentrate wealth and education (College is expensive FOR THE RECIPIENT, but public education is increasingly expensive on all!) on the few you do have. Parental attention, too, since it has only recently been given consideration as a valuable resource!
If everyone were responsible, there would be a stable population...Then again, if everyone were responsible, this thread would be unnecessary, since other countries would take care of their own excess populations, rather than just sending the First World countries their malcontents--and then accepting the "remittances" (Polite word for "plunder" or "loot") back FROM the First World. This extra revenue stream is IN ADDITION TO, not in lieu of, foreign-aid. If we made foreign-aid contingent upon government reforms and stopping the flow of illegals to our two countries, the stream of illegals would either dry up instantly, or at least be redirected to other countries...Perhaps China? After all, aren't ALL superpowers "morally beholden" to accept the rejects of other cultures?
But of course, I jest. China would machinegun them down the first time they tried to riot in the streets for their "rights"!
No, seriously: Noone WITH POWER in either of our countries needs to stop the flow of illegals, they have their own private security to keep riffraff off THEIR property, the rest of us fend for ourselves...And besides, would you really want to deprive the third-worlders of their graft? Sweet deal for them, no wonder they don't want to reform! Change is uncomfortable!

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RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/2/2007 11:55:50 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		The population of the UK has increased and is projected to increase at a rate much greater than the increase in housing stock. That increase is fuelled mainly by immigration.. Legal/illegal is almost irrelevant
It follows priories in allocation of public housing must be applied
Same applies to school places, hospital places.

Why for instance should a poor say farm labourer or shop worker have almost zero chance of getting a home at the same time as some bogus refugee with 3 kids from say Zimbabwe is housed ?

And as for birth rates....he he he he
Lets all whistle as we ride hot foot towards the precipice of social fracture

One poster admits indigenous young girls milk the welfare system for all its worth.
Official policy spokespersons deny that problem exists too.

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RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/2/2007 12:03:47 PM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		Missturbation: do you recall how many Eastern Europeans were projected to arrive here when Poland and others entered the EU.
Answer about 13 000
In the event at least 250 000 odd have arrived.

Why do you think restrictions have had to be put on Bulgarian and Rumanian potential immigrants ? Did you know that such restrictions have been imposed.
Possibly illegally for all I know. The restriction I mean.

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RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/2/2007 12:16:39 PM   
EPGAH


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Status: offline 		America ALLEGEDLY abolished our quota system in 1986...SUPPOSEDLY this is the reason that our immigrants shifted from UK/Europe to Latino America and even China(!) America VASTLY underestimated how many would pour in once we opened the floodgates
And as a possible side-effect, the "quality" of immigrants dropped precipitously too: Well-educated Europeans/English/Irish/Scottish (The latter possibly having the "unfair" advantage of already KNOWING English!)...But also eager to work, eager to learn, and even eager to assimilate--IF they were allowed! (Yes, I know about "No Irish Need Apply", but it does NOT apply to our current situations)
Then we closed down Ellis Island...Not only was it not needed, but it became a sort of "Museum of Shame" of a time when we filtered out the diseased, criminal, or otherwise undesirable immigrants and sent them back AT THEIR EXPENSE, not ours!
How dare we! We filter our air, our water, and even our sewage, and we use antibacterials to sanitize our hands and household surfaces of undesirable organisms, but Heaven forfend we filter out undesirable PEOPLE!
Now, most "immigrants" consider coming to the First World a "right", and don't consider learning the language of the place a necessity, let alone asking permission, obeying the laws, renouncing their "old" country's citizenship, or jettisoning their more objectionable customs! (Look up "Female Castration", "Arranged Marriages" as the most common examples) Yet oddly, they don't understand why the authorities--and the people they displace and/or offend--don't trust them!
HOWEVER, these undesirables call themselves illegal or "undocumented" IMMIGRANTS--and some "forget" the illegal part--and that fosters prejudice against ALL immigrants! (Much as a rape victim would have a hard time trusting other men? Or would that be called an "undocumented husband"?)

There is anecdotally in ONE encyclopedia, a single Senator saying that placing legal limits on the number of children immigrants should have is unnecessary, since "immigrants are unlikely to have children in our society", followed by something like, "they'll be too busy"...Boy was HE wrong!
Source: American Heritage Encyclopedia
The American Heritage Encyclopedia is more or less a MASSIVE history book, of America, multiple volumes in chronological order!

< Message edited by EPGAH -- 11/2/2007 12:21:22 PM >

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RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/2/2007 12:23:18 PM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		The restrictions on Romanian and Bulgarian workers are legal. We also had the option, exercised by many of our neighbours, to restrict incomers from Poland and the  other countries who entered the EU alongside them - but we chose not to. The restrictions in any case are only for a transitional period.

By all accounts the gypsy population over in Romania is anxious to get over here - these arent gypsies as we know them, but proper gypsies. Equally, the Romanians are anxious for them to go, (as indeed the other countries are, where gypsies are to be found), because theyre a total pain in the neck, scrounging, stealing and disregarding every law as they please, whilst wanting social benefits.

E

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RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/2/2007 12:30:15 PM   
EPGAH


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
By all accounts the gypsy population over in Romania is anxious to get over here - these arent gypsies as we know them, but proper gypsies. Equally, the Romanians are anxious for them to go, (as indeed the other countries are, where gypsies are to be found), because theyre a total pain in the neck, scrounging, stealing and disregarding every law as they please, whilst wanting social benefits.
E

Wow...then our illegals are actually gypsies? Who knew!

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RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/2/2007 12:41:07 PM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		LadyE: the Rumanian gypsys sound like perfect candidates to be allowed to enter the UK then lol
I also read or saw reports on a TV news programme of how eager they were to get into the UK.

I recently heard either a Rumanian or Bulgarian government spokes person lamenting the fact that remittances back to those countries will not exist while their natives cannot enter the UK.
That means that purchasing power will not be removed from the UK economy. Yet anyway.

Epgah has raised another important point , disease.
TB HIV and HEPITITUS have all increased dramatically as a consequence of lunatic not to say almost criminal immigration policy.

adding I am rather surprised that the PC thinker par excellence NG hasn't chipped in his two pennorth.
Has he emigrated to Poland ?

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 11/2/2007 12:57:06 PM >

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RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/2/2007 12:47:42 PM   
EPGAH


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Status: offline 		Yes, and at risk of being Biblical, due to our illegals, LEPROSY is making a comeback! We should DEFNITELY charge the invaders' home countries a hefty fee for making US their designated Leper Colony!
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44394
Naturally the World Health Organization denies it--only third-world countries have that; our concerns are overstated, etc....But what happens when America becomes the dumping ground for the undesirables of the third world?
Are we just being paranoid, or is the rest of the world jealously clinging to their favorite toxic-waste dumpsite?

< Message edited by EPGAH -- 11/2/2007 12:51:21 PM >

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RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/2/2007 1:03:45 PM   
DomMeinCT


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EPGAH

Yes, and at risk of being Biblical, due to our illegals, LEPROSY is making a comeback! We should DEFNITELY charge the invaders' home countries a hefty fee for making US their designated Leper Colony!
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44394
Naturally the World Health Organization denies it--only third-world countries have that; our concerns are overstated, etc....But what happens when America becomes the dumping ground for the undesirables of the third world?
Are we just being paranoid, or is the rest of the world jealously clinging to their favorite toxic-waste dumpsite?


Wow.  I'm just waiting for your next post  to espouse euthanasia, forced sterilization, and New World Order theories.

/sarcasm

< Message edited by DomMeinCT -- 11/2/2007 1:04:17 PM >

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RE: Adult enough to discuss it!! - 11/2/2007 1:05:21 PM   
EPGAH


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Status: offline 		So you think having more diseases because we can't filter incoming people anymore is just coincidence?

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