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RE: Safe words - 11/14/2007 5:14:35 PM

serenitee

Posts: 13
Status: offline

While I believe in safety while playing, I eventually would rather give up my right to have a safe word and be completely trusting in my Owner because I strongly believe that is the ultimate gift (besides actual servitude of course). But before getting to that stage, the stop light system works best in a variety of situations. Random play it is great for because when playing with someone new, they may not know specific limits and red, yellow, green works well to help achieve a fantastic play session. Safety is number one, which is why I am cautious as to who I play with, and if it is someone new, I tend to have an experienced Dominant with me regardless if safe words are used or not. But not all the time is this the case so in the beginning even if it is just “red” that is used, it’s still a very good idea while learning your play partner. Trust is crucial for play and I don’t suppose I would play with anyone that my Dominant (or myself for that matter) didn’t think suitable for that session, therefore, despite having a safe word, I most likely wouldn’t use it anyway.

(in reply to chellekitty)

Post #: 221

RE: What are words for? - 11/14/2007 5:15:27 PM

MadRabbit

Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
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If I stop every single time at a stop sign, we can come up with two different theories for the cause of this behavior.

1. I am the one in control of the vehicle and am making a concious choice to stop in light of the new circumstane provided by the sign.
2. The sign is in control of me, forcing me to stop every single time.

If I stop play to tend to my bottom every single time a safe word is used, we can come up also come up with two different theories as presented here in this thread.

1. I am in control of the scene and am making a concious choice to stop the play based on the new information and circumstance that has come up.
2. The bottom is in control of me, forcing me to stop every time with the safeword.

Now...I could easily disaprove both theories in both scenarios by either running the stop sign or ignoring the safeword, but I refuse to. Why? Because I won't be irresponsible to simply disaprove a conjecture.

So in light of the abscense of fact, we both only can theorize why I, in fact, stop at a stop sign and stop at a safeword.

I say its theory #1.

You claim its theory #2.

However, the logic in theory #2, while it may seem great when viewed narrow mindedly in the limited parameters of a BDSM scene, isn't realistic, rational, or practical in any other equal context.

In the word according to xoxi where tops are controlled by the magical power of the bottom's safeword, then we are all, in fact, enslaved and submissive to the magical power of the stop sign we confront everyday.

As opposed to the simple rational explanation of I am in control of the car and make a concious choice to stop at the powerless stop sign, because thats what I do because of my character as a responsible adult.

Its easy to be right with your beliefs in this discussion if you make up the rules, but the rules you are making up aren't realistic.

You can believe whatever you want to. You can believe there is a moon made of green cheese. It still doesn't change the fact that your conjecture (or "beliefs") is/are flawed.

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 11/14/2007 5:21:40 PM >

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to xoxi)

Post #: 222

RE: Safe words - 11/14/2007 5:20:42 PM

sexyred1

Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

I use a phrase.
If you do not stop that now I will fucking kill you when I get loose.
It is the cuss word which makes them stop.
Kyst

quote:

ORIGINAL: tinkatoy

What do you use for safe words?

LOL, I am with you, I say the same thing.

(in reply to Missokyst)

Post #: 223

RE: What are words for? - 11/14/2007 5:22:33 PM

xoxi

Posts: 1066
Status: offline

Okay, MR, that makes a bit more sense. Allow me to address your concerns, please, although you directed your post to a theoretical audience, speaking *about* me rather than directing your post *to* me.

You missed one very important part of my argument - when each time before I said "the Top must stop" I specified "according to the parameters of their relationship." I didn't say it's a magic word that makes the top stop (lol) I said that if the top intends on keeping his word, that he agreed to at the start of the relationship, THEN he must stop. Or pause to collect the information being offered or whatever the safeword means to THEM.

So let me present option 3, in both stop sign and safeword version:

3. The driver can choose whether or not to stop at the stop sign. However s/he does so knowing that as a citizen of state xyz s/he can and will be ticketed and fined if s/he does not stop. The driver must therefore choose between being a law abiding citizen of state xyz, breaking the law, or moving to a state with no stop signs.

3. The top can choose whether or not to follow the safe word. However s/he does so knowing that at the beginning of the relationship, one of the paramaters agreed to is that s/he will follow the meaning of the safe word that was specified. The top must therefore choose between keeping his or her word and being a responsible top, breaking his word (which some people still see as a matter of one's reputation - to be respected and upheld) or being in a relationship with no safewords.

Make a bit more sense now?

< Message edited by xoxi -- 11/14/2007 5:24:53 PM >

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 224

RE: What are words for? - 11/14/2007 5:29:23 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

Maybe. But my point wasn't that red=stop, my point was that red=stop=a command. And I genuinely feel that if you replace 'stop' with 'let me tell you this now' it's still a command....

aaaaaaaww NO!

Let me tell you this now... is a question....

Maybe I so ok.. or maybe I say... that's nice we shall continue. Red doesn't need to mean Stop play is done.. give me after care.

Red might mean... I really really really would like to stop.... Oh that is really nice slave... oh why do you want to stop... Being a responsible Top I am looking the motivation/reasons behind the thought process..... slave says... cause I need to go pee... *chuckles..... throws towel on floor... pee as you need to.. but we shall continue.

of course.... it might be... my vision is blurred and I am getting a very bad headache on the left side of my head....mmmmm I think I will stop in this situation and maybe alittle more... maybe.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to xoxi)

Post #: 225

RE: What are words for? - 11/14/2007 5:33:16 PM

MadRabbit

Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

3. The driver can choose whether or not to stop at the stop sign. However s/he does so knowing that as a citizen of state xyz s/he can and will be ticketed and fined if s/he does not stop. The driver must therefore choose between being a law abiding citizen of state xyz or moving to a state with no stop signs.

3. The top can choose whether or not to follow the safe word. However s/he does so knowing that at the beginning of the relationship, one of the paramaters agreed to is that s/he will follow the meaning of the safe word that was specified. The top must therefore choose between keeping his or her word and being a responsible top, or being in a relationship with no safewords.

Make a bit more sense now?

Sure, if you are providing support for Skinner's theory of the non-autonomous human and are supposing that I don't, in fact, make choices based on circumstance and information.

Perhaps I am a robot?

But still amazingly...you making up the rules and theoritcal relationships and clinging to them despite the endless numbers of variations of relationships and safewords usage.

You still constantly claim that A SAFEWORD IS UNIVERSALLY A COMMAND.

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 11/14/2007 5:34:48 PM >

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to xoxi)

Post #: 226

RE: What are words for? - 11/14/2007 5:33:59 PM

xoxi

Posts: 1066
Status: offline

KOM,

I completely agree with you. I was simply saying that the middle part, when you paused to hear the information, was the command part. Whatever you do with that info I agree is your choice.

If you're saying that when the slave says "red/I have info" you see nothing wrong with replying "that's nice, tell me when we're done" then I agree it's not a command that must be followed according to the parameters of your relationship. I was addressing my posts in the context that a safeword is something that triggers a response that must be obeyed in order to keep your word as agreed to in the beginning.

Like I said quite a few times, if a safe word can be listened to or ignored at the Top's discretion (the safeword itself, not the choice of what to do AFTER the safeword has been used and followed) then it's not a command. But at the same time it doesn't really provide the bottom with any additional security, you know?

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 227

RE: What are words for? - 11/14/2007 5:38:53 PM

xoxi

Posts: 1066
Status: offline

MR,

I am unfamiliar with the theory you referenced and would like to stress, once again, that I'm not representing ANYONE'S arguments but my own. Not Merc's, not Skinner's. Not anyone else's.

And what I was saying was that the circumstance and information provided mean that, just as a person who doesn't stop at a stop sign is a criminal, a top who doesn't follow the safeword is one who goes back on his word. I consider that to be a form of lying, and also unethical.

So you're right in the sense that yes, it is a choice between following the safeword or being a liar...but are you saying those choices have equal merit? Perhaps if a woman was raped and had the choice "suck my cock or be shot in the face" you would say that she wasn't really raped, because she could have chosen to be shot in the face. So it was her choice?

I think the choices of 'follow the safeword as agreed' or 'be an unethical, disreputable liar' are inherently unequal. This is because I consider my word something that has value, and when I say I will do something, I mean it.

My question for you is do you see those two choices as equal or unequal?

< Message edited by xoxi -- 11/14/2007 5:39:41 PM >

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 228

RE: What are words for? - 11/14/2007 5:48:52 PM

xoxi

Posts: 1066
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

You still constantly claim that A SAFEWORD IS UNIVERSALLY A COMMAND.

Yup. Cuz that's what I believe. In fact I'll go one step further and say that if a safeword is agreed to, it is not only a command but a command that must be followed if the Top has any sense of honor.

And that my friend is why I do not use safewords. Because I see them as a command. And I don't want to command my Master.

If you're trying to convince me that it's not a command, I have to ask why? Are you trying to convince me to use them myself? Because I've already said numerous times that I consider safewords a valid tool and have no problem with any other person using them...so you can't be trying to convince me to accept that they are valid. No need to convince me something I already said I believed three pages ago.

Or maybe you just want me to say "My viewpoint is invalid" so you feel happy? If that's the case, by all means continue, because I will not say those words until I believe them to be true. I don't.

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 229

RE: What are words for? - 11/14/2007 5:52:37 PM

chellekitty

Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline

is the comparison equal? a Master compared to a rapist?

the point is that red may or may not mean "stop" ....as it has been said over and over and over and over and over...well you get the point...its been said...between two (or more) consenting adults, a safeword means whatever they agree it to mean...as Archer posted, the same safeword means two different things between his two slaves (i think that is both their positions) red to one means stop, because he trusts her not to say red unless it absolutely means stop....red to another means i need to communicate something, at which point he will choose whether to continue or not...

which i think brings me to the key point, in my not so humble opinion....a safeword without trust from both sides of the flogger (or whatever) means absolutely nothing....that does not make safewords bad...it makes playing without trust -in some form or another, from trust in your partner to trust in the DMs- bad...again, in my not so humble opinion...

chelle

_____________________________

One thing I know: the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who will have sought and found how to serve. ~Albert Schweitzer

(in reply to xoxi)

Post #: 230

RE: What are words for? - 11/14/2007 5:55:08 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

I think that perhaps ithat for you it seems like a command, you will not play with them, and safewords have no place in your relationship. But that is a different statement than :

quote:

Yup. Cuz that's what I believe. In fact I'll go one step further and say that if a safeword is agreed to, it is not only a command but a command that must be followed if the Top has any sense of honor.

And that my friend is why I do not use safewords. Because I see them as a command. And I don't want to command my Master.

I think that that there is a difference between saying that for you something would feel a certain way in the context of your relationship, and making the blanket statement that safewords are commands to everyone... even after we have repeatedly told you we do not view it that way.

I have no problem with the fact that you would not use a safeword because it feels like a command to you. I do have a little trouble with you stating that it is a command period in every other relationship... I never endeavored to tell you what safewords should be to you. I perceived you telling me what you think they are for me.

Am I clear now?

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 11/14/2007 5:56:30 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to xoxi)

Post #: 231

RE: What are words for? - 11/14/2007 5:59:58 PM

MadRabbit

Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

MR,

I am unfamiliar with the theory you referenced and would like to stress, once again, that I'm not representing ANYONE'S arguments but my own. Not Merc's, not Skinner's. Not anyone else's.

You should check it out. Its about how human beings don't really make choices and are simply human bio robots responding to reinforcers.

It will help you out some.

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

And what I was saying was that the circumstance and information provided mean that, just as a person who doesn't stop at a stop sign is a criminal, a top who doesn't follow the safeword is one who goes back on his word. I consider that to be a form of lying, and also unethical.

Okay once again, you are pushing this discussion down your parameters and on your terms of this theoretical relationship.

Hey, I will play along...

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

So you're right in the sense that yes, it is a choice between following the safeword or being a liar...but are you saying those choices have equal merit? Perhaps if a woman was raped and had the choice "suck my cock or be shot in the face" you would say that she wasn't really raped, because she could have chosen to be shot in the face. So it was her choice?

I think the choices of 'follow the safeword as agreed' or 'be an unethical, disreputable liar' are inherently unequal. This is because I consider my word something that has value, and when I say I will do something, I mean it.

My question for you is do you see those two choices as equal or unequal?

Okay...so let's say you rupture your spleen during the course of a scene and are bleeding internally...there is no way that your Top can know this.

So you inform him...."Master, I think I am bleeding internally".

No use of the pesky controlling safeword. Just clear communication.

Now he is forced with a choice. Do I stop the scene or do I keep on going and risk my slave dieing?

That seems like just as unequal of a choice as the one's presented above. I am going to assume that your Master is the kind of guy who will stop every time he is informed of a ruptured spleen.

So applying the logic you have presented here for why safewords should not be used, your Master is being controlled by you, the slave! You are the dominant party because your ruptured spleen and the risk of losing you over not fixing that ruptured spleen are forcing him to stop doing what he wants to do and tend to it!

As much as you want to narrowly look at this issue, there is no escaping that every Master, given the fact that they aren't God, is going to eventually have to stop or change what he wants to do based on the circumstances, information, or actions of or presented by his slave.

Extending the logic past these narrow parameters of yours, there is no stopping or hindering the inevitability that a Master is going to be (as you have put it) "controlled" by his slave in some form or fashion.

Without safewords, it will just happen in some other form or fashion according to the same logic you used to debunk safewords.

So your argument against not using them amounts to squat in a "Big Picture" sense.

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 11/14/2007 6:04:03 PM >

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to xoxi)

Post #: 232

RE: What are words for? - 11/14/2007 6:02:07 PM

chellekitty

Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline

hey MR....in reference to your tagline....what if the chainsaws aren't running?

_____________________________

One thing I know: the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who will have sought and found how to serve. ~Albert Schweitzer

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 233

RE: What are words for? - 11/14/2007 6:03:45 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

a safeword without trust from both sides of the flogger (or whatever) means absolutely nothing....that does not make safewords bad...it makes playing without trust -in some form or another, from trust in your partner to trust in the DMs- bad...again, in my not so humble opinion...

I think that this above is the wisest thing I have read on this thread.... really true

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to chellekitty)

Post #: 234

RE: What are words for? - 11/14/2007 6:05:00 PM

MadRabbit

Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

hey MR....in reference to your tagline....what if the chainsaws aren't running?

Only if they have a safeword

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to chellekitty)

Post #: 235

RE: What are words for? - 11/14/2007 6:05:00 PM

xoxi

Posts: 1066
Status: offline

Chelle - it makes as much sense as comparing a submissive to a stop sign

Julia - I actually got the opposite impression - that people were adamently trying to prove that a safeword IS NOT a command and that to view it as one is invalid. These are just a few of the quotes from my previous posts in this topic:

quote:

That bothers me on a mental level, personally, as far as my own relationship dynamic - which is why I don't use one like that.

quote:

I still don't want my relationship to include a word I can use to command my Master that he must obey if he intends to follow what he agreed to.

quote:

My post was just my reason and motivation for not using them...and also a small debate with Rover over his assertation that a safeword is still valid if it can be ignored. I think we agree on that much at least...that's the only thing I was even debating. The rest was just a description of my viewpoint. Like I told Archer, you have every right not to share my viewpoint, but there's no reason to say it's not valid. Your relationship is very different from my own and I respect that difference. I was writing about my ideas, my relationship, and how I view safewords. That's a bit less "freaking funny" than the nonsense you somehow managed to claim came from my mouth, but it's a more accurate description. I tend to prefer the latter.

quote:

I also don't like the way they make me feel mentally - first of all they make me feel like I'm commanding my Master, and second of all they make me feel like I'm play acting a role. I know you don't feel that way and I'm not trying to convince you to feel that way - I'm just saying that personally, I do. And that's why my Master is my Master and your Master/Dominant/Top (don't quite know the details of your dynamic) is your M/D/T.

quote:

My post had absolutely nothing to do with you or your relationship. I was talking about my own relationship and said that I don't use them, and that my Master doesn't use them.

And finally, to stress the point that this is just my view and I was defending my right to have it, not ordering anyone else to share it:

quote:

LOL I can't *not* view it as a command any more than you *can* view it as one...but I think we both agree that whether we consider a safeword a command or not, the Master's will comes first.

I'm lucky enough to have a Master whose will coincides with my own beliefs. That's probably why he's my Master y'know?

Am *I* clear now?

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 236

RE: What are words for? - 11/14/2007 6:11:43 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

I do not want to go through all the previous posts, but I am not the only one that has read your posts as being doublespeak.. on one hand saying for you, and then making blanket statements such as "Red = stop universally" and "red is a command"... like I said.. I could go back and find ever infinitive statement you made in this regard, but I am willing to just let it go down to miscommunication and agree that our relationships just work differently.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to xoxi)

Post #: 237

RE: What are words for? - 11/14/2007 6:13:08 PM

xoxi

Posts: 1066
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

So your argument against not using them amounts to squat in a "Big Picture" sense.

Okay. You win. My argument and motivations amount to squat in a big picture sense.

But as far as the small picture goes, in that one little relationship between two people out of six billion in the world, my motivations mean quite a bit. And really, that's all I care about...and all I was trying to say from the beginning.

I see safewords as a command.
My Master sees safewords as a command.
For that reason we do not use safewords.
And it makes us happy.

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 238

RE: Safe words - 11/14/2007 6:13:37 PM

frustratinggirl

Posts: 29
Joined: 6/13/2007
Status: offline

"honor"

although we only agreed to it when we first met each other as a directional tool, I think their useful for people who dont know each other well enough, eventually the word just gets pushed out of mind.

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 239

RE: What are words for? - 11/14/2007 6:17:05 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Trust you don't feel it is an attack on your dominance if we agree to disagree on the other part of this issue that I raised. beth's responsibility to insure the safety of my 'property' extends to her. Ergo she's required to let me know if there is some kind of condition that exists that could affect that safety. I believe that what Elegant coveys to you is similar. However, I don't think you'd represent that is universally the case. I've seen, heard, and albeit long ago, acted upon hearing a safe-word used solely for the purpose of dominating what was going on. If you haven't my regards to you and all your acquaintances.

I agree with Merc that is much more prevalent with those that use safewords that there will be a specific safeword that will mean "Stop.... Play is Done"   In Public Play venues.. by far the most common term used is "RED" that will mean "Stop .... Play is Done".

However, just because in Public Venues and the majority of relationships that use safewords have a safe word that equates to "Stop... Play is Done".... this doesn't mean that others can use safewords and do not allow the bottom to decide that the play is done. Red could mean... "I have critical information to share that I am of the opinion is necessary to protect your property from being Harmed". Of course... the Master/Dominant maybe have a different opinion on the given information. Thanks dear... but we shall continue!

Then of course.. there are those that don't as a norm use safewords/triggers words/code words and go with just general communication.

IE... A while back I was enjoying myself with Kyra. The previous night I did a very intense abrasion scene. The next morning she was very much in pain to simple touches... poor flesh was rather raw. She expressed very clearly between tears that she wanted to stop... I think she actually beg "please stop my lord" mmmmmmmm god that was good. I looked at her... are you Harmed? (asked rhetorically)  I then continued to make her cry and well I couldn't help but be turned on and well.. a guy got to do what a guy got to do.

The experience had a very sobering effect on her.. realizing that she can experience such pain and was not going to be Harmed.

People need to do what works for them. I do feel that when a person uses a safeword that equates to "Stop... Play is Done!"... they could be very much in control of the scene.   Control must be active/exercised for it to exist. If the bottom doesn't use the safeword to "Stop... Play is Done" then they never have control.... but such a situation does establish a Joint Authority situaiton. Since both individuals in the scene/relationship have the option to exercise control and "Stop... Play is Done" In my relationships... I have the Authority and as such.. the girls can not exercise control if they desire to maintain the Integrity of the relationship. what is bolded is extremely important. It is important to acknowledge that M/s relationships do not live on an Island. We are subjected to the reality that an individual can exercise a control that draws on the authority of society (ie Laws of the Land) However, exercise this outside authority violates the integrity of the M/s relationship. This to me Ends the relationship.. Without Integrity... the relationship is Doomed! It is also important to understand that many Masters/Dominants have their own Personal Integrity with their own principles. "Do thy will... Harm none" We don't want our slave to be harmed and as such we take steps to ensure that will not happen. Some choose to use safewords.... and as such... some Masters will even Delegate authority in some cases and allow the slave to exercise control and "Stop... Play is Done". However, the exercise of such control is rooted in the authority delegated from the Master. It is a delegated authority because the Master could at any time in the relationship tell the slave... I no longer give you the priviledge to exercise control and "Stop... Play is Done" In my opinion, If the Master doesn't have the prerogative and right to remove delegated authority if he so desires. Then I see a D/s dynamic in it's core and not a M/s one.

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 11/14/2007 6:26:36 PM >

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 240

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