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RE: What are words for? - 11/14/2007 8:06:14 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

Rover,

I guess your post makes more sense then.  I wasn't saying there was only one true way to use a safeword - I'm saying that as far as I was aware that was the definition of a safeword as used in every BDSM community I've been exposed to.  In every public party or open dungeon.  Everywhere.

Obviously people can make their own definitions of words up - FFS I can say that by *my* definition I'm a Master because I'm really good at what I do as a slave.  But that might make things confusing when I post things like "As a Master, I find it arousing to kiss my owner's feet.  I feel that any Master should do so if their owner requires it."  And then write five pages about how I'm a Master of servitude and how if anyone says they've never heard any female slave call themselves "Master" they were imposing their one true way on me.

Or I could not do that because it's really ridiculous and impedes rational discussion.

The posts I made are valid in the context of safeword=stop.  If you see a safeword as just another word that may or may not be obeyed we have a different definition of the word, so nothing you say about safewords will make a bit of sense to me and nothing I say about them will make a bit of sense to you.  It's not saying "there is only one true way" to try to agree on the terms discussed before discussing them.

Either way I agree completely - if a safeword is just something the Dominant can fuck off and ignore or follow at his own leisure, then no the submissive isn't the one in control there.  But then, really now, what's the point of having one?



It has been spelled out repeatedly why people would choose to have one, and that "stop and assess my condition" is not the same as "stop what you are doing because I want to top from the bottom and I want you to top my way".  Red means "I am in trouble, you have exceeded my limits" Those limits maybe mental or physical, but they are limits nonetheless... and we all have limits. I cannot fly for example, that is a physical limit. I cannot have my head rotated 360 degrees, it will kill me, so that is a limit.

You did not even respond to their use in forced sex scenes, which is a very good reason to have a code word to stop.

Here is the thing, anything a submissive does to stop play could be construed as topping from the bottom, crying, yelling, putting hands up, saying "sir, I think you may have broken my pelvis, please check it for me"... what is the difference between these things and a safeword?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to xoxi)
Profile   Post #: 201
RE: What are words for? - 11/14/2007 8:52:06 AM   
xoxi


Posts: 1066
Status: offline 		But regardless - "stop and assess my condition" is either something that must be obeyed if the bottom calls red/aardvark/coffee/onomonapoeia or something that the top can choose to ignore.

If the paramaters of the relationship dictate that it must be obeyed - it's not "topping from the bottom" in my opinion but it is still a command that the Master has to follow if he intends to keep his word.  That bothers me on a mental level, personally, as far as my own relationship dynamic - which is why I don't use one like that.

If the paramaters of the relationship dictate that it does not need to be obeyed - why is it a 'safeword' and not just a regular word?  What's the point of having one in place if "red" means "assess my condition" and the top thinks "meh I'll do it later it's not like we agreed that I *had* to stop if she called red"? 

Yes it's useful to have one in place if the bottom believes s/he is injured and wants play to stop so s/he can be assessed.  But if it's totally arbitrary whether the top has to pay attention or not...I ask again.  What's the point?

The analogy I always heard about a safeword is that it's like a release mechanism on a restraint.  Push the button and that's it - scene stopped.  Even if it's just to stop it to assess the condition, or because a limit has been pushed, it still means stop.  I can see how that's a useful thing to have - I never once said it wasn't.  I just don't understand how it's of any use if it's something that you agree can be ignored or dismissed.

Also one thing I want to make clear - even if the safeword doesn't mean "stop - end scene" as you are saying, and instead means "I have information" it still means "stop - I have information."  Or "Pause - I have information" or any other variant of "Do not continue until I give you this information."

If "red" meant "I have an urgent issue that must be addressed" I would assume "red" also means "let me tell you what it is" - that's what I mean by it's a command.  I see a difference between topping from the bottom and making a command - but I still don't want my relationship to include a word I can use to command my Master that he must obey if he intends to follow what he agreed to.

I have no problem with people using safewords.  I've used them in the past.  I think they can be incredibly useful tools.  That doesn't change the fact that it's a command


< Message edited by xoxi -- 11/14/2007 9:03:20 AM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Safe words - 11/14/2007 9:43:48 AM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		I use a phrase.
If you do not stop that now I will fucking kill you when I get loose.
It is the cuss word which makes them stop.
Kyst
quote:

ORIGINAL: tinkatoy

What do you use for safe words?


_____________________________

pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley


(in reply to tinkatoy)
Profile   Post #: 203
RE: What are words for? - 11/14/2007 9:47:14 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		And the idea that I must stop and gather this information has 0 ZERO NO reflection on a shift in who is being dominant.
BEACAUSE I ordered the bottom submissive slave to make sure I had all the information I needed to make sure they were safe and healthy.
So since there is a standing order to convey the information obedience requires that they convey the information.
Since that may very well be impossible to do unless I stop and recieve the information, the calling of RED (I have information that you may require) is obedience rather than dominance. The thing is I obligate myself to act in theagreed upon manner at the use of a safeword, the slave submissive bottom did not put that obligation on me I put it on myself.
How can it be them reversng dominance if I set the rules from the begining and they don't break the rules.
A slave's duty is to obey regardless of if the order forces them to do something that seems on the surface like they are not being submissive. Obedience outranks submission, because to disobey eliminates the possibility that you are submitting, while the reverse is not true.



You see in public venues all the time the ONE TRUE WAYISM of Red= Stop. And the fact is within the walls of the venue we all submit to the rules of the club owners, or we don't play there. Simple fact, if we choose to ignore their rules, they have the right to remove us. (ie Their house, Their rules) However in a D/sM/s relationship the slave lives under the Master's rules even within the confines of a community play venue. However the Dominant/ Master/ insert term here is obligated to play under house rules ONLY when they are within the community venue, when outside the cmunity venue they get to play by whatever rules they have set up.

Short form:
1) we are at a community play party I have signed a release, and signed that I have read and will obey the rules of the venue
Then if the community rule is Red means STOP then for the period of time I am in the venue I have agreed to play by those rules. ( Or I ignore their rules play by my own rules and risk the consequences of removal/ banning/ whatever)
2) We are at a private party in someone elses home, they say We have no universal safeword for this party
Then I play by my own rules and Red means "Sir I have information that you may require to make informed decissions about my health and safety"

My issue is not with those who don't use safewords. Hey use whatever format for communicating information you want and need to have. My issue is with the idea that you or anyone esle can tell me that the control has shifted beacause the one true waysm of Red= stop is an absolute universal definition that I must use even at my own home or I'm not really using a safeword.




(in reply to xoxi)
Profile   Post #: 204
RE: What are words for? - 11/14/2007 9:58:19 AM   
xoxi


Posts: 1066
Status: offline 		You really didn't read what I said, did you?

I didn't say red=stop.  I said that IF red=I have information, then likely red ALSO means "pause so I can tell you this information."  Cuz really  now, I can't imagine if you're whipping someone and she says "red" meaning "I have information" you're just going to make a mental note of it and keep on going...then five minutes later after a "red" after every lash finally let her down and say "gee I guess you have quite a bit to tell me, eh?"

The way I see it if I have something to tell my Master I'll say it.  If he can't hear "my arm broke" over the whipping he probably couldn't hear "red" either...so neither would work.  I don't feel the need to add a command of "Let me tell you this now" before I give the info.  I will just say it because I know my Master and I know how he would react to that.  He doesn't want me to be injured...he probably worries more about my safety than *I* do!

I guess it's just a mental thing with me.  I don't think it's a total switch of authority positions or anything...it's one simple command I would give out of the thousands he gives me.  It's just one of those things that 'grinds my gears' so to speak...I see it as ordering my Master to listen to me.  That doesn't make him any less of my Master...we know who belongs to whom.  It's just something I don't want to do, and my reason for not wanting to do it is because of how I view it.

You don't have to accept that viewpoint as your own, but there's no need to say it's not a valid one.  Especially when it's something that's really a matter of perception...I can see why you don't think it's a command.  I just disagree

Edit: And besides all that my posts weren't really about what a safeword was used for.  They were about whether a safeword must be adhered to or if the Top can decide to ignore it (which Rover put forward as a valid use of one) - all I'm saying is that if a safeword can be ignored at a Top's whim it's not much of a safeword.  Call it my one true way if you want, but I see no point in using one if it's just going to be ignored.


< Message edited by xoxi -- 11/14/2007 10:08:38 AM >

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RE: What are words for? - 11/14/2007 10:48:09 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

Yes it's useful to have one in place if the bottom believes s/he is injured and wants play to stop so s/he can be assessed.  But if it's totally arbitrary whether the top has to pay attention or not...I ask again.  What's the point?


What is the point of any of it if the Dominant does not respect the submissive to the point that he would continue to engage in an activity that was harming her/him? I would not continue in a relationship in which my welfare counted for so little.. but that is just me and how I view the world.. I am not a martyr, I am a submissive. I do not give up my right to my physical limits in this world. I would not allow a dominant to permanently damage me because "he decided he did not want to stop". I would not consent to being murdered or having my limbs cut off either...

quote:

If "red" meant "I have an urgent issue that must be addressed" I would assume "red" also means "let me tell you what it is" - that's what I mean by it's a command.  I see a difference between topping from the bottom and making a command - but I still don't want my relationship to include a word I can use to command my Master that he must obey if he intends to follow what he agreed to.



So what you are saying is that if your dominant person told you that you were to use a safeword if you felt as though you were in trouble, and he commanded  you to do so, you would ignore that command from him and disobey him? Interesting... see I have been ordered to use a safeword if I am able to do so and I get into trouble so he can stop and assess my condition to determine what he should do about it. So basically I should ignore what I was commanded to do by him. Sorry, I find that too freakin funny.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to xoxi)
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RE: What are words for? - 11/14/2007 10:54:02 AM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		Reading this thread is making me want to cry "RED".  We have this same insert head into brick wall exercise about once a month.  The wall ain't getting any softer people.

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I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: What are words for? - 11/14/2007 11:19:09 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

Reading this thread is making me want to cry "RED".  We have this same insert head into brick wall exercise about once a month.  The wall ain't getting any softer people.


That is the way that safeword threads always go

I understand your safeword thread limit

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to laurell3)
Profile   Post #: 208
RE: What are words for? - 11/14/2007 11:43:05 AM   
xoxi


Posts: 1066
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

So what you are saying is that if your dominant person told you that you were to use a safeword if you felt as though you were in trouble, and he commanded  you to do so, you would ignore that command from him and disobey him? Interesting... see I have been ordered to use a safeword if I am able to do so and I get into trouble so he can stop and assess my condition to determine what he should do about it. So basically I should ignore what I was commanded to do by him. Sorry, I find that too freakin funny.


No, that is not what I said.  In fact I don't see anything in any of my posts that even remotely resembles anything relating to this concept.  Nor did I say you, or anyone else, should not use safewords.  And I most certainly did NOT tell you to disobey an order from your Master to use one.

My post had absolutely nothing to do with you or your relationship.  I was talking about my own relationship and said that I don't use them, and that my Master doesn't use them.  One of the first things he told me was "I don't use safewords" and I smiled in relief and said "neither do I."  So to answer your question - if my Master told me to use a safeword I would wonder who the strange man who looked like my Master was. 

And if I were single and in the negotiating stages of a relationship with a different man, who did use safewords, I would tell him how I felt about them.  I don't know if I would be able to be with a man who used them, because I really need to feel confident that saying "I'm injured" will make him stop, instead of waiting to hear the code word.  I also don't like the way they make me feel mentally - first of all they make me feel like I'm commanding my Master, and second of all they make me feel like I'm play acting a role.  I know you don't feel that way and I'm not trying to convince you to feel that way - I'm just saying that personally, I do.  And that's why my Master is my Master and your Master/Dominant/Top (don't quite know the details of your dynamic) is your M/D/T.

My post was just my reason and motivation for not using them...and also a small debate with Rover over his assertation that a safeword is still valid if it can be ignored.  I think we agree on that much at least...that's the only thing I was even debating.  The rest was just a description of my viewpoint.  Like I told Archer, you have every right not to share my viewpoint, but there's no reason to say it's not valid.  Your relationship is very different from my own and I respect that difference.  I was writing about my ideas, my relationship, and how I view safewords.  That's a bit less "freaking funny" than the nonsense you somehow managed to claim came from my mouth, but it's a more accurate description.  I tend to prefer the latter.


< Message edited by xoxi -- 11/14/2007 11:47:31 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 209
RE: What are words for? - 11/14/2007 12:01:26 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		In debate one of the strongest tactics available is to disprove the initial premise.
In this case it was that Red= Stop
And that has been the idea that has been lost on folks since the start of this.
Premise:  If red = stop then...............
But we are countering with "In truth Red does not always = stop"
Because it is a construct it can be constructed in multiple ways.
Red does not always = stop therfore the rest of the point is moot. 


On the issue of dominance shifting the point that you did not address was central, and repeated by julia.

If X orders Y to use a safeword to communicate distress then how by using it has dominance reversed. Regardless of if Red=stop or not if the use was ordered by X in the first place, then Y using it (assuming within the spirit of the order) is not an act of dominance or even a command but rather simply an act of obedience.

EDITED TO ADD OK posted too quickly you address the issue above.

Edited to additionally add The bit about "You didn't really read......." is kinda a pot meet kettle thing. I was just as frustrated that you didn't read what I said.
(In this case most likely we each read the entirety and just didn' place the same emPHAsis on the same silABles)

< Message edited by Archer -- 11/14/2007 12:13:17 PM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 210
RE: What are words for? - 11/14/2007 12:22:36 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		Archer,
Your public venue and private party point is very much a "one true way"! House rules rule and the safe-word for disagreement is not to enter.

Trust you don't feel it is an attack on your dominance if we agree to disagree on the other part of this issue that I raised. beth's responsibility to insure the safety of my 'property' extends to her. Ergo she's required to let me know if there is some kind of condition that exists that could affect that safety. I believe that what Elegant coveys to you is similar. However, I don't think you'd represent that is universally the case. I've seen, heard, and albeit long ago, acted upon hearing a safe-word used solely for the purpose of dominating what was going on. If you haven't my regards to you and all your acquaintances.

quote:

On the issue of dominance shifting the point that you did not address was central,
My question would be why, outside the context of public venue with universal safe words dictated by the 'house'; why require translation to affect action? Doesn't that put adult play and interaction between people on word which in and of itself does not disclose the problem? 

In practice, I think there is common ground in our sentiment that ongoing communication is critical during a session regardless of the intensity. However, my argument would be within the agreement that I don't want to have to translate the broad stoke "red" into a specific issue to address.

quote:

So what you are saying is that if your dominant person told you that you were to use a safeword if you felt as though you were in trouble, and he commanded  you to do so, you would ignore that command from him and disobey him? Interesting... see I have been ordered to use a safeword if I am able to do so and I get into trouble so he can stop and assess my condition to determine what he should do about it. So basically I should ignore what I was commanded to do by him.
No one is saying that your dominant can't submit to you and provide himself with an excuse, "you had a safe word you could use", for putting you through something beyond your comfort level or inflicting an intensity that you didn't previously agree upon and/or anticipate. I understand and support you and any other person who gives or needs to retain some modicum of dominance.

Then again, you bring up "trouble". Were beth in a state that she or I defined "troubling" I don't require a magic word or need to take back any dominance assigned to a safe-word to address the trouble. Your "hysterical" cry speaks to that. Unless "hysterical crying" IS the magic action for stop - you having "red" as the magic word - shouldn't expect any relief while "hysterically crying"; unless there is another set of rules applied to your dom for consideration of that possible occurrence. 
quote:

Sorry, I find that too freakin funny.
I find it hysterically hilarious!

(in reply to Archer)
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RE: Safe words - 11/14/2007 12:32:05 PM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

However, if you are playing privately and the dominant/Top doesn't give a damn, no amount of safewords or life jackets is going to help you.


Boy is that fucking true....when faced with someone who does not listen you can scream out Red, Blue, Green or bloody murder and it will not matter.

(in reply to Padriag)
Profile   Post #: 212
RE: What are words for? - 11/14/2007 12:52:20 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Archer,
Your public venue and private party point is very much a "one true way"! House rules rule and the safe-word for disagreement is not to enter.

Trust you don't feel it is an attack on your dominance if we agree to disagree on the other part of this issue that I raised. beth's responsibility to insure the safety of my 'property' extends to her. Ergo she's required to let me know if there is some kind of condition that exists that could affect that safety. I believe that what Elegant coveys to you is similar. However, I don't think you'd represent that is universally the case. I've seen, heard, and albeit long ago, acted upon hearing a safe-word used solely for the purpose of dominating what was going on. If you haven't my regards to you and all your acquaintances.

Certainly I have run into, had it used on me, heard it, seen it, etc my personal tactic has been rather than dismiss the use of them entirely to modify their use within my relationship/ scenes to contend with the down sides.
 
I agree we are in many ways solving the exact same problem just different ways of geting to the same place.
 
You would rather they do without the safeword idea, I would rather modify the idea to fix the problem areas, both of us are looking for the way to make sure the information gets conveyed.


quote:

On the issue of dominance shifting the point that you did not address was central,
My question would be why, outside the context of public venue with universal safe words dictated by the 'house'; why require translation to affect action? Doesn't that put adult play and interaction between people on word which in and of itself does not disclose the problem? 

Because rather than confuse the issue to a impared mind on endorphines the same word is used regardless of location to indicate the one message she is obligated to give me. "Sir there is something wrong that you might need to know"
And RED takes less thought and less time to say especially through sobs and tears which are far from uncommon it seems in both our SM times. LOL
We have several one word communications tools.
Red, Wrap, Bastard, GDDMIT (you got me again), And the all time favorite
FUCKYOUFIFTHANGEL all one word.


In practice, I think there is common ground in our sentiment that ongoing communication is critical during a session regardless of the intensity. However, my argument would be within the agreement that I don't want to have to translate the broad stoke "red" into a specific issue to address.

quote:



As above we are solving the same how to communicate in an SM scene.
Lots of common ground, just comming at it from fundamentally different angles.
You take the mountain pass I'll cut my way through the swamp and we'll both get to the campsite.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 213
RE: Safe words - 11/14/2007 1:19:05 PM   
chellekitty


Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline 		Merc...if you do not subscribe to One Twue Wayism....what is this?

Post #24
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
If beth had a safe-word and/or used one, she would be the dominant in the activity. I don't distinguish her from any other slave. "submissives" are different in my mind, however yes the same opinion applies.


_____________________________

One thing I know: the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who will have sought and found how to serve. ~Albert Schweitzer

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: What are words for? - 11/14/2007 2:48:15 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

So what you are saying is that if your dominant person told you that you were to use a safeword if you felt as though you were in trouble, and he commanded  you to do so, you would ignore that command from him and disobey him? Interesting... see I have been ordered to use a safeword if I am able to do so and I get into trouble so he can stop and assess my condition to determine what he should do about it. So basically I should ignore what I was commanded to do by him.


No one is saying that your dominant can't submit to you



Actually, Mercnbeth, that is exactly what you are insinuating about julia and my relationship by responding to her. julia and I have never once shown this level of disrespect to your relationship, yet you continually attack our relationship when we post on general topics.  She will be down in a few weeks and we were hoping to take you up on your gracious invitation to go to the south bay munch, but I can only imagine you would also lack self control and respect for us in person.  We are not the only people on even this thread you have levelled your bilious nonsense at, e.g., Rover, so consider whether the person out of step with the band is not the rest of us.  I ascribe to the "Choose your battles carefully" theory, and frankly, taking crap from you is a waste of time for both she and I. 

If you want to hold yourself up as a model BDSM and D/s practitioner, you may want to take your attacks away from the specific relationships and individuals, and refer to the general topic at hand.  Failure to do so generally rebounds on the one attacking, and casts a negative light on the person showing disrespect to others. 

How would you feel if somebody took your words out of context and attempted to trash your relationship with them?

Sinergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 215
RE: Safe words - 11/14/2007 3:15:28 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty
Merc...if you do not subscribe to One Twue Wayism....what is this? Post #24
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
If beth had a safe-word and/or used one, she would be the dominant in the activity. I don't distinguish her from any other slave. "submissives" are different in my mind, however yes the same opinion applies.


chelle,
You're right I did reference a "One Twue Wayism". It is my "one true way" for beth and any other submissive who choses to be with me. I have a "one true way" for us. I don't require anyone else to subscribe to it. I don't carie if anyone else follow it. The reference to anyone with me. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

quote:

Actually, Mercnbeth, that is exactly what you are insinuating about julia and my relationship by responding to her. julia and I have never once shown this level of disrespect to your relationship, yet you continually attack our relationship when we post on general topics.
You consider a reply and "attack". I consider it a reply. However, when words such as "silly" "ignorant" or any other choice of name calling is referenced - I don't consider it an attack, but simply an indication of not having an actual counter-argument. It is disrespectful, but in most instances I consider the source and discount the words similarly to the person.

quote:

She will be down in a few weeks and we were hoping to take you up on your gracious invitation to go to the south bay munch, but I can only imagine you would also lack self control and respect for us in person. 
Happy that you have overcome Julia's previously mentioned aversion to any BDSM group public events. We'll look forward to seeing you. Although I have no idea what you'd use as a reference point for my lack of self control, you'll both be given the respect you deserve.
quote:

We are not the only people on even this thread you have levelled your bilious nonsense at, e.g., Rover, so consider whether the person out of step with the band is not the rest of us.
Synergy, never needed any band to be in step with and can't imagine ever wanted to. I'm intrigued at how vehement and emotional you are to have me be. Sorry if I refuse to be a member of the safe-word band; you'll have to live with that fact.

quote:

and never attempted  I ascribe to the "Choose your battles carefully" theory, and frankly, taking crap from you is a waste of time for both she and I. 
You forgot to note; but not in this case?

quote:

If you want to hold yourself up as a model BDSM and D/s practitioner, you may want to take your attacks away from the specific relationships and individuals, and refer to the general topic at hand.  Failure to do so generally rebounds on the one attacking, and casts a negative light on the person showing disrespect to others.
Don't have that as an ambition either, and seek to be no "light" positive or negative. If that interest you feel free. Neither beth or I will stand in your way. We only post and reference how we live. I'm proud of it, but the first thing we tell people who contact us for personal insight is that we do no represent any BDSM lifestyle dogma - only Merc & beth dogma. When you and Julia post you do so anticipating that you are "models"? I don't think so - and I KNOW so concerning us.

quote:

How would you feel if somebody took your words out of context and attempted to trash your relationship with them?
I'd reply by putting them in context and making an argument for them which they could agree or not. If I thought I wasn't clear or failed to consider something raised by the other party, I'd note it. If it were in reference to something factually incorrect I'd say so. (see above reply to chellkitty as an example.)

Ultimately, it's not critical or required if others want to share my beliefs or how I live with them. But that's just me...

(in reply to chellekitty)
Profile   Post #: 216
RE: What are words for? - 11/14/2007 3:46:35 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

Either way I agree completely - if a safeword is just something the Dominant can fuck off and ignore or follow at his own leisure, then no the submissive isn't the one in control there.  But then, really now, what's the point of having one?


As an additional source of communication whenever folks feel that it's beneficial to them, particularly during scenes which mimick nonconsent. 
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to xoxi)
Profile   Post #: 217
RE: What are words for? - 11/14/2007 3:49:42 PM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

I have no problem with people using safewords.  I've used them in the past.  I think they can be incredibly useful tools.  That doesn't change the fact that it's a command



It must be annoying to wake up everyday, climb in your car, start driving, and come under the mystical power and control of the mighty STOP sign.

Personally, if I had this narrow minded outlook that was being presented here, I would be annoyed at having to live under the constant tyranny of an inanimate road sign.

I've immensely enjoyed reading this discussion...but come on....

11 pages of watching you and Merc try and restrain this discussion to the narrow minded parameters of your own creations will exhaust anyone's patience.

Your just wrong.

Give it up.

Its pathetic at this point.



_____________________________

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(in reply to xoxi)
Profile   Post #: 218
RE: What are words for? - 11/14/2007 4:57:19 PM   
xoxi


Posts: 1066
Status: offline 		Mad Rabbit I don't even know what you are talking about or what you're saying I'm wrong about.

Are you saying I'm wrong for how I feel?  Or that I'm wrong for not using safewords?  Or are you just assuming that because I agree with one of the many concepts that Merc posted that I support his entire argument for his own reasons?

If you're saying I'm wrong for how I feel - go fuck yourself.  Seriously.  My motivation for engaging in legitimate activities is not under your jurisdiction.

If you're saying I'm wrong for not using safewords - go fuck yourself. Seriously.  My relationship is not under your jurisdiction.

If you're assuming I endorse everything Merc posted for the reasons he posted - I don't, never did, never claimed to, and don't like words being put in my mouth.  Merc's paramaters are not my paramaters and unlike him I'm just saying "the reason I don't do this is because xyz" NOT saying "this is dangerous because of xyz."  In fact I've endorsed the use of safewords multiple times.  So I have to ask you, in all seriousness, what on earth are you even TALKING about?????

And I actually mind the "tyranny" of having to stop at a stop sign when there are no freaking cars around a lot more than I mind the "tyranny" of...um...whatever the hell you're comparing that to.  The tyranny of...deciding not to use a safeword?  No wait that was a choice.  For some reason I doubt you mean the tyranny of expressing my views on a forum and then having people say I'm wrong for how I feel despite the fact that I respect how THEY feel.  But yeah I hate stop signs and fortunately live in a big city and take the train more often than not.  And I've never been ticketed for crossing the street on foot when the light was red.

(in reply to MadRabbit)
Profile   Post #: 219
RE: What are words for? - 11/14/2007 5:07:11 PM   
xoxi


Posts: 1066
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

In debate one of the strongest tactics available is to disprove the initial premise.
In this case it was that Red= Stop
And that has been the idea that has been lost on folks since the start of this.
Premise:  If red = stop then...............
But we are countering with "In truth Red does not always = stop"
Because it is a construct it can be constructed in multiple ways.
Red does not always = stop therfore the rest of the point is moot. 


On the issue of dominance shifting the point that you did not address was central, and repeated by julia.

If X orders Y to use a safeword to communicate distress then how by using it has dominance reversed. Regardless of if Red=stop or not if the use was ordered by X in the first place, then Y using it (assuming within the spirit of the order) is not an act of dominance or even a command but rather simply an act of obedience.

EDITED TO ADD OK posted too quickly you address the issue above.

Edited to additionally add The bit about "You didn't really read......." is kinda a pot meet kettle thing. I was just as frustrated that you didn't read what I said.
(In this case most likely we each read the entirety and just didn' place the same emPHAsis on the same silABles)


Maybe.  But my point wasn't that red=stop, my point was that red=stop=a command.  And I genuinely feel that if you replace 'stop' with 'let me tell you this now' it's still a command....the middle part is just a synonymous explanation of the term "red" - my premise could basically be construed as IF red=a command the Master must obey, THEN it means the Master's power is not absolute.  So you might be arguing against red=stop with Merc, but with me, you're arguing against red=a command.   I know that if you ordered your partner to use a safeword you wouldn't feel it was a command and I appreciate that viewpoint as valid. 

I on the other hand have not been ordered to use one.  In fact I've been ordered not to use one, if you want to get technical, although it's like ordering me to eat delicious cake for breakfast...I'm not quite arguing   And the reason that I have been ordered not to use one is because we view it as a command.  So to say "would you disobey your Master if he told you to" just does not compute any more than "would you shoot yourself in the face if your Master told you to."

But I can say, that IF I had a Master who ordered me to command him to pause activity and listen to my information for the sake of my safety, I would obey his order to command him. LOL I can't *not* view it as a command any more than you *can* view it as one...but I think we both agree that whether we consider a safeword a command or not, the Master's will comes first. 

I'm lucky enough to have a Master whose will coincides with my own beliefs.  That's probably why he's my Master y'know?

< Message edited by xoxi -- 11/14/2007 5:10:51 PM >

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 220
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