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I didn't say red=stop.  I said that IF red=I have information, then likely red ALSO means "pause so I can tell you this information."

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Also one thing I want to make clear - even if the safeword doesn't mean "stop - end scene" as you are saying, and instead means "I have information" it still means "stop - I have information."  Or "Pause - I have information" or any other variant of "Do not continue until I give you this information."

If "red" meant "I have an urgent issue that must be addressed" I would assume "red" also means "let me tell you what it is" - that's what I mean by it's a command.

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ORIGINAL: xoxi

I completely agree with you.  I was simply saying that the middle part, when you paused to hear the information, was the command part.  Whatever you do with that info I agree is your choice.

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

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ORIGINAL: xoxi

Yup.  Cuz that's what I believe.  In fact I'll go one step further and say that if a safeword is agreed to, it is not only a command but a command that must be followed if the Top has any sense of honor.

Oh wow look...someone interjecting and applying their beliefs as an absolute for all relationships...

At least, when I am purposely being a close minded ass and say things like "I believe that the literal "no limits" is a myth", I admit that I am dismissing some people's relationships.

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ORIGINAL: xoxi

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

So your argument against not using them amounts to squat in a "Big Picture" sense.

Okay. You win. My argument and motivations amount to squat in a big picture sense.

But as far as the small picture goes, in that one little relationship between two people out of six billion in the world, my motivations mean quite a bit.  And really, that's all I care about...and all I was trying to say from the beginning.

I see safewords as a command.
My Master sees safewords as a command.
For that reason we do not use safewords.
And it makes us happy.

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ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

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ORIGINAL: xoxi

I completely agree with you.  I was simply saying that the middle part, when you paused to hear the information, was the command part.  Whatever you do with that info I agree is your choice.

And your dead Wrong...  Look at the Definition of Command for god sakes.

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ORIGINAL: xoxi

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ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

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ORIGINAL: xoxi

I completely agree with you.  I was simply saying that the middle part, when you paused to hear the information, was the command part.  Whatever you do with that info I agree is your choice.

And your dead Wrong...  Look at the Definition of Command for god sakes.

The pertinent definition from dictionary.com that I feel apply to the idea that when a safeword is used, the Top must respond to it in the way agreed to are the following:

1.to direct with specific authority or prerogative; order:  (the 'authority' used is the agreement made at the beginning of the relationship that a safeword means the top must do xyz - ie listen to information.)

or more simply,

7.to issue an order or orders.

We're talking about two different things...I'm talking about the immediate reaction to the safeword and you're talking about the reaction to the information given after the safeword is used.  And I agree with you completely about that.

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

And as long as we have come to the agreement that your arguments against safe limits, while perfectly fine f0r your style, have no actual validity for anyone else who choose to use safewords, then thank you.

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ORIGINAL: xoxi

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ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

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ORIGINAL: xoxi

I completely agree with you.  I was simply saying that the middle part, when you paused to hear the information, was the command part.  Whatever you do with that info I agree is your choice.

And your dead Wrong...  Look at the Definition of Command for god sakes.

The pertinent definition from dictionary.com that I feel apply to the idea that when a safeword is used, the Top must respond to it in the way agreed to are the following:

1.to direct with specific authority or prerogative; order:  (the 'authority' used is the agreement made at the beginning of the relationship that a safeword means the top must do xyz - ie listen to information.)

or more simply,

7.to issue an order or orders.

We're talking about two different things...I'm talking about the immediate reaction to the safeword and you're talking about the reaction to the information given after the safeword is used.  And I agree with you completely about that.

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

So anytime a dominant and a submissive converse in any setting whatsoever and he stops to listen to what she has to say then she is commanding him? Interesting

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ORIGINAL: xoxi

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

And as long as we have come to the agreement that your arguments against safe limits, while perfectly fine f0r your style, have no actual validity for anyone else who choose to use safewords, then thank you.

Change that to "may or may not have actual validity for anyone else who choose to use safewords, based on that person's own values and ideas" then we'll agree.

I kinda like words to mean specifically what they mean and I'm sure as fuck not going to agree that my ideas are ONLY valid for me.  They're valid for anyone who subscribes to them.  Just like yours are.

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

It makes no difference.

If logically you are going to conclude that one kind of information is a command because of the consequences of ignoring that information, then any kind of information that comes loaded with consequences for ignorance is a command.

Hence, the Big Picture still trumps. If a safeword is a command, then direct communication about a ruptured spleen or a broken bone or a cut artery qualifies as a command under your argument.

You would dare to command your Master with your broken bones?!

Not a true slave in my book!

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ORIGINAL: xoxi

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

So anytime a dominant and a submissive converse in any setting whatsoever and he stops to listen to what she has to say then she is commanding him? Interesting

That depends.

If she says "There's a squirrel in the road" then it is not a command.  If she says "Stop the car, there is a squirrel in the road" then it is a command.

And once again I would like to stress that just because a command is given does not mean it must be followed.  I could tell my Master "go make me breakfast" and that would be a command...whether or not he listens to it.

My problem with safewords isn't that they are simply a command...my problem is that when a safeword is agreed on, it becomes a command that must be followed in order to maintain the boundaries of the relationship.  It's really a trivial issue, and like I said it's just something that "grinds my gears" personally...I'm not saying OMG safewords disrupt the balance of power in a relationship!!!!!  I'm just saying it's one of those things that just bothers me on a fundamental level.  YMMV.

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Hey, your wounded ego and stubborneness aren't my problem.

All the logic you have presented as to why safewords are controlling I have shown still applies in some other shape or form without safewords.

At this point, this amounts to "I don't want to use safewords because I don't like them!" since there isn't a valid argument.

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ORIGINAL: xoxi

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

It makes no difference.

If logically you are going to conclude that one kind of information is a command because of the consequences of ignoring that information, then any kind of information that comes loaded with consequences for ignorance is a command.

Hence, the Big Picture still trumps. If a safeword is a command, then direct communication about a ruptured spleen or a broken bone or a cut artery qualifies as a command under your argument.

You would dare to command your Master with your broken bones?!

Not a true slave in my book!

It does make a difference to me.

The phrase "I have broken bones" conveys information.

The safeword "Red" conveys information indirectly, by saying "I have information," but in addition, by nature of being a safeword, it also carries the weight of "as we agreed in the beginning of our relationship I order you to stop and assess this information."

Saying "I have broken bones" isn't saying "I order you to take me to the hospital."  It's not saying "I order you to stop play and check on me" - whether or not it's said after a safeword.  That is still just information.

A safeword carries with it an obligation.  Information doesn't.

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit


If two people agree that a safeword is to be used only in an emergency or a critical situation, then saying "Aardvark" is simply a communication that there is an emergency or critical situation.

In that context, it's no more of a command then saying "I have a ruptured spleen!"

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If you would just simply realize that some people, like myself, use safewords solely in the scope of an emergency or critical situation that really does require me to stop out of necessity, this silliness can come to an end.

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ORIGINAL: xoxi

Strangely enough, I think that I do have a valid argument, and I don't feel you disproved it. 

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ORIGINAL: xoxi

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ORIGINAL: MadRabbit


If two people agree that a safeword is to be used only in an emergency or a critical situation, then saying "Aardvark" is simply a communication that there is an emergency or critical situation.

In that context, it's no more of a command then saying "I have a ruptured spleen!"

Yes but "Aardvark" also means "by the agreement we made before we started playing you must assess this information."

If a top ignores "I have a ruptured spleen" he's a dickface.  If a top ignores "Aardvark" he's not only a dickface, but he's also dishonored his word.

Now, IF you are saying this in the context that a prior agreement was made that "If I tell you I am injured you will give me medical care" then I will say the two are equally a command. I'm guessing that's the angle you're coming from here.  It wasn't something I specified though...nor was it something you specified...so I assumed that it wasn't what we were discussing.