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RE: Safe words - 11/11/2007 5:38:57 PM   
ImpGrrl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
If beth had a safe-word and/or used one, she would be the dominant in the activity.


I think that this *could* be the case, but is not necessarily.

Sometimes the bottom will be the only one to know that the play *needs* to stop.  And, if they are unable in that very instant to say *why* - then a "safeword" could be used.

For instance.  We have one.  It's "safeword".  We have it because once we were playing and something was hurting so badly I needed it to stop right then - as in, I felt like actual damage was occurring.

However, in that moment, it hurt so badly that all I could say was "please no please stop" etc.

Well - as sadists, that's fucking hot in our lives. 

So, after he stopped that activity (didn't stop play), we finished play, etc - we talked about it.   And he decided that he didn't want an unintentionally broken slave, so if that ever happened again I'd say "safeword".

So - if I ever have to use it, this is what happens.  I say it.  He stops long enough to give me the time/presence of mind to tell him what is wrong.  Then, once he's heard me - *he* decides if, when, and how play continues.  Maybe he *does* want to hurt me that badly.  Maybe he doesn't, but wants to continue play.  Or maybe he wants to stop entirely.  It's his call, not mine.

So I don't see that as me being "dominant" in that situation.  It's another communication tool, not a command, not a way of directing him.

Of course, all of that *is* predicated on me using it in a way consistent with our relationship dynamic.  If I misused the safeword, I could very well be controlling him.  The point is, I'm not.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 141
RE: Safe words - 11/11/2007 5:47:31 PM   
ImpGrrl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RRafe

Exactly-the only way to be safe is to communicate-or have a safe Top who watches carefully.


I'd change that "or" to an "and".


(in reply to RRafe)
Profile   Post #: 142
RE: Safe words - 11/11/2007 5:49:52 PM   
ImpGrrl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetSarijane

I don't use safewords. I use open communication. It's what works for me.


I used to say that too - and for the most part still agree.  I have one exception circumstance, which I outlined in my last response. (Edited to add - not the last one.  The one before it)

quote:



If others choose to use safewords, that's their choice and I have no problem with that per se, however I do have a problem with the use of them being touted as the "one true way" or pushed as the safety measure when in fact they are only as good, as safe as the top. Never rely on a safeword alone to save your ass. It's not a magic fix all word.


1000% agreed.

< Message edited by ImpGrrl -- 11/11/2007 6:12:09 PM >

(in reply to SweetSarijane)
Profile   Post #: 143
RE: Safe words - 11/11/2007 5:54:36 PM   
ImpGrrl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

how do you think your advocating of NOT using basic saftey precautions comes off? A lot of new folks read this message board, looking for quality information... if you DON'T use safewords, could you at least mention the fact that you have been in the same relationship for years, and can now practically read each other's minds? Or at least give a better detailed set of reasons why you don't, so the hypothetical newbie reading your posts don't just blow off basic saftey principals because "people on CM say it's not really needed." 

Just my opinion... I could be wrong.


See - I think that "basic safety precautions" need a re-write.  So no - I won't re-word my opinions on this stuff to cater to the lowest common denominator - because I believe in *educating* new folks, not feeding them pablum.

I don't (except as mentioned in a previous post) use safewords.  The *only* time I even *have* one is when I'm playing with my owner - because only he has the authority to hurt me badly enough that I might need it.

Otherwise, I could know the top or bottom (I switch) for years or minutes - no safeword. 

(in reply to bipolarber)
Profile   Post #: 144
RE: Safe words - 11/11/2007 6:02:11 PM   
ImpGrrl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

The justifications for the use of these "code" words is generally so that things like "no" and "stop" don't get misunderstood. Why is the vocabulary of a submissive thought to be so limited? Do dominants think that we are incapable of expressing our needs with real words that actually mean what we say? Maybe I'm weird, but if I get a cramp the first word that usually comes into my mind is "cramp". If I overextend my knee the first thing that pops into my head is "knee". If I'm going to puke...well you guessed it...."puke".


Agreed (except as mentioned) - this is how much of our communication during play occurs.

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 145
RE: Safe words - 11/11/2007 6:08:05 PM   
ImpGrrl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Having a safe-word takes most, if not all, of the responsibility for what happens away from the dominant. He/She can flail away all the skin from the submissive's back and/or break every blood vessel in the submissive ass and if the submissive is stoic, is having an "out of body experience", or just can't vocalize or express the agreed upon magic word; and his/her reaction to a complaint can be "Whoops, Damn - sorry that you lost a pint of blood. I thought that was a bit much, but since I didn't hear your safe word I figured- hey, what the hell!" There has been an example of this occuring given in this thread.


Again - not necessarily.   Relying exclusively on the bottom's use of a safeword as the only way to stop the scene - yes.  But using it as an added communication tool - not so much.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 146
RE: Safe words - 11/11/2007 6:37:24 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ImpGrrl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Having a safe-word takes most, if not all, of the responsibility for what happens away from the dominant. He/She can flail away all the skin from the submissive's back and/or break every blood vessel in the submissive ass and if the submissive is stoic, is having an "out of body experience", or just can't vocalize or express the agreed upon magic word; and his/her reaction to a complaint can be "Whoops, Damn - sorry that you lost a pint of blood. I thought that was a bit much, but since I didn't hear your safe word I figured- hey, what the hell!" There has been an example of this occuring given in this thread.


Again - not necessarily.   Relying exclusively on the bottom's use of a safeword as the only way to stop the scene - yes.  But using it as an added communication tool - not so much.


I cannot imagine a universe in which my Daddy would beat me unrelentingly because I did not use a safeword.... sorry, that is just a red herring and it has nothing to do with the efficacy or safety of safewords. As far as me being in control, well I often think I am capable of taking more than he gives me, but since it really is all about him, I don't get a vote.

_____________________________

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(in reply to ImpGrrl)
Profile   Post #: 147
RE: Safe words - 11/11/2007 9:20:58 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ImpGrrl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Having a safe-word takes most, if not all, of the responsibility for what happens away from the dominant. He/She can flail away all the skin from the submissive's back and/or break every blood vessel in the submissive ass and if the submissive is stoic, is having an "out of body experience", or just can't vocalize or express the agreed upon magic word; and his/her reaction to a complaint can be "Whoops, Damn - sorry that you lost a pint of blood. I thought that was a bit much, but since I didn't hear your safe word I figured- hey, what the hell!" There has been an example of this occurring given in this thread.


Again - not necessarily.   Relying exclusively on the bottom's use of a safe-word as the only way to stop the scene - yes.  But using it as an added communication tool - not so much.


Imp,
Well, based upon your reply, although "not necessarily" a submissive does sometimes have his/her safety in their own hands. And if the dominant IS relying on the bottom's safe-word, fairly common based on the posts made on this thread especially with limited experience or casual encounters, to to stop the scene; than yes once again the submissive is in  control. Meaning you agree that sometimes the submissive dominates the scene by a safe-word and it may be necessary that the submissive is responsible for what is inflicted.

Again I'll pose the a simple question;  in your perfect scenario and session, if the submissive says their safe word does the session stop? They aren't in danger and it hasn't gone beyond any predetermined "limit". The submissive just "isn't feeling it" and says "RED!" If the scene stops, the power, and in BDSM terms the dominance in control of the session, was in the hands of the person saying the word.

It doesn't matter to me what you label either participant. In regards to power and authority you either have it or you don't. A person having to stop at the mention of the word does not have that power and/or dominance. The person who makes it stop does.

Use any boat, car, train, plane, or donkey cart analogy you'd like but any other conclusion can only be reached from a rationalized position.

However I don't understand why anyone sees this as being a display of weakness or wrong. Either safe-words have the effect you, and others who use them say they do and have the power implied, or they don't and their use is meaningless. The conclusion and result speaks to pragmatic fact.

Agreed its semantics, and obviously it is a source of personal conflict to point out something so basic, but fact the fact remains

RED = STOP - The top stops; Who dominated?

(in reply to ImpGrrl)
Profile   Post #: 148
RE: Safe words - 11/11/2007 10:19:34 PM   
laurell3


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Status: offline 		It's honestly more likely the case that a Dom stops because of concern for me and I'm begging him not to.  However, some of these responses in this thread don't take into consideration that Dom/mes are HUMAN BEINGS and not freaking superman.  Yes, they can learn how to read you and can be skilled at it, but are they all-knowing mind-readers?  NO.  Are there things about you and your body and mind they can't see and know regardless of skill?  Of course.  I can't imagine not saying, my shoulder is really bothering me in this position (prior shoulder injury) and ending up being immobilized because of a scene and anyone I've ever personally been with not being pissed off at me for not mentioning it because that obviously is not at all their intent with the scene.  Does that mean I have control?  Of course not, it means we are both humans with limitations, not merely roles.

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(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 149
RE: Safe words - 11/11/2007 10:23:22 PM   
downkitty


Posts: 224
Joined: 10/1/2007
Status: offline 		We don't have a safeword. There's no need. He's not a sadist and I'm not a masochist. We don't have play sessions that involve pain in that way. About the only thing we do that could possibly involve a safeword is when I ask him if I may be allowed to resist. Even then, though, safeword wouldn't really apply, because he's getting what he's going after, period. lol

Respectfully,

Amy



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(in reply to tinkatoy)
Profile   Post #: 150
RE: Safe words - 11/12/2007 4:54:21 AM   
Rover


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Again I'll pose the a simple question;  in your perfect scenario and session, if the submissive says their safe word does the session stop? They aren't in danger and it hasn't gone beyond any predetermined "limit". The submissive just "isn't feeling it" and says "RED!" If the scene stops, the power, and in BDSM terms the dominance in control of the session, was in the hands of the person saying the word.


I'll answer as well, since you seem to have overlooked my post to you on this same topic (post #124 if you'd care to reply).  In your example above, the submissive offers some information in the form of an expletive that will most often cause a Dominant to ascertain what the problem is (the problem is not "Red"... "Red" merely communicates that a problem exists).  Same result as if the couple does not use "Red" or any other mystical safeword and the bottom merely says "Harry, I believe I felt my femur snap... you might care to take a moment and investigate".  Of course, you may be the exception.

quote:


It doesn't matter to me what you label either participant. In regards to power and authority you either have it or you don't. A person having to stop at the mention of the word does not have that power and/or dominance. The person who makes it stop does.  

Use any boat, car, train, plane, or donkey cart analogy you'd like but any other conclusion can only be reached from a rationalized position.


The weatherman issues a tornado warning in the middle of the scene, and the Dominant/Top stops to assess the danger.  Does that mean all weathermen are now in charge of scenes?  No, the Dominant/Top was simply presented with some additional information which he processed and assessed.
 
The cat rubs against one of the candles in the scene, lighting itself like a torch and begins running around the room.  The Dominant/Top stops to douse the smoldering remains of fluffy.  Does that mean that all cats are now in charge of scenes?  No, the Dominant/Top was simply prsented with some additional information which he processed, assessed, and decided to act upon.
 
Little Timmy, Jr. can be heard opening the door to the bedroom in the middle of his parent's scene.  The Dominant/Top stops to put little Timmy, Jr. back to bed and then lock his own door upon return to the bedroom.  Does that mean that all children are now in charge of scenes?  No, the Dominant/Top was simply presented with some additional information which he processed, assessed, and decided to act upon.
 
In the middle of their scene, the bottom conveys that a problem exists, in that the chains have become bound and are pinching her skin so tightly that the excruciating (and "bad") pain is preventing her from achieving her Master's desired state of mind.  Does that mean that the submissive/bottom is in charge?  No, the Dominant/Top was simply presented with some additional information which he processed, assessed, and decided to act upon.
 
Do you see how this works?  All without making everyone else the one that's "twuely" in control. 

quote:


However I don't understand why anyone sees this as being a display of weakness or wrong.  Either safe-words have the effect you, and others who use them say they do and have the power implied, or they don't and their use is meaningless. The conclusion and result speaks to pragmatic fact.


You've consistently ignored what people say about their use of safewords, and are misstating the effect you claim they have.  And the pragmatic truth is that you (and everyone else) uses them as well.  Safewords are not just "Red" or "Rumplestilskin".  Safewords are also "Merc, the wire has cut into my wrist and I believe that's arterial blood spurting onto the new sofa".  Use whatever works for you, since the effect and results are exactly the same. 

quote:


Agreed its semantics, and obviously it is a source of personal conflict to point out something so basic, but fact the fact remains


You're right, it is semantics.  So why are you so emotionally invested in being seen as not having a safeword?  Though it really doesn't matter... call it whatever you like so long as it works for you. 

quote:


RED = STOP - The top stops; Who dominated?


If that were the end of the story, then I'd say the bottom dominated.  But it's not.  It's the equivalent of saying that people stop at stop signs... and remain there.  They don't.  They process the traffic, assess the dangers and possible actions, and then move on.  Same thing with safewords.  Dominants process the information, assess the possible courses of action, and then move on in whatever manner they have decided upon. 
 
John

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(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 151
RE: Safe words - 11/12/2007 5:54:34 AM   
MistressRouge


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tinkatoy

What do you use for safe words?


Blinking the eyelashes frantically, or clenching the fists frantically -signals :)

I have no interest in safewords and dont use them

To add: I feel safewords take the edge away from play, also to WILL a sub/slave/player to safeword is not what I am about or practice. Some subs that I see, have in the past safeworded prematurely with other Dom/mes, thus leaving them feeling let down and unfulfilled. Why give them a comofrt blanket to rely on, I would much rather have full control over them, and those that visit Me like the fact I do not use safewords. My total awareness of their wellbeing is always paramount, I also like full control of Mine, and use signals only which I feel are much more effective when sub is bound, gagged, hooded and restricted.

Safewords are useful for those that need them.

< Message edited by MistressRouge -- 11/12/2007 6:04:21 AM >

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(in reply to tinkatoy)
Profile   Post #: 152
RE: Safe words - 11/12/2007 6:21:19 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

The weatherman issues a tornado warning in the middle of the scene, and the Dominant/Top stops to assess the danger.  Does that mean all weathermen are now in charge of scenes?  No, the Dominant/Top was simply presented with some additional information which he processed and assessed.
 
The cat rubs against one of the candles in the scene, lighting itself like a torch and begins running around the room.  The Dominant/Top stops to douse the smoldering remains of fluffy.  Does that mean that all cats are now in charge of scenes?  No, the Dominant/Top was simply prsented with some additional information which he processed, assessed, and decided to act upon.
 
Little Timmy, Jr. can be heard opening the door to the bedroom in the middle of his parent's scene.  The Dominant/Top stops to put little Timmy, Jr. back to bed and then lock his own door upon return to the bedroom.  Does that mean that all children are now in charge of scenes?  No, the Dominant/Top was simply presented with some additional information which he processed, assessed, and decided to act upon.
 
In the middle of their scene, the bottom conveys that a problem exists, in that the chains have become bound and are pinching her skin so tightly that the excruciating (and "bad") pain is preventing her from achieving her Master's desired state of mind.  Does that mean that the submissive/bottom is in charge?  No, the Dominant/Top was simply presented with some additional information which he processed, assessed, and decided to act upon.
 
Do you see how this works?  All without making everyone else the one that's "twuely" in control. 

 
This made me chuckle and at the same time was one of the best posts I have seen in relation to dominance and safewords

It does not matter how many of us give examples of a time when we used safewords in a way that was helpful... there will still be someone who brings up some freak accident or some idiot that decided to rely completely on them. People were idiots before they got a hold of safewords.

Sometimes safety belts kill car passengers in accidents...but we still use them even though we have airbags too. Smart people do not rely completely on a safety belt to keep them from dying in a wreck, they also obey traffic laws and drive defensively too. Why would any thinking person rely on a word to keep them completely safe?.... Police have codes they use to quickly communicate issues to others, they often do this when they are adrenalized and possibly injured.. are they dominating the dispatcher or communicating to them?

The humorous thing in my mind is that someone outside of a dynamic between two other individuals is going to pronounce what their relationship is or isn't based upon a goddamned word. It is very funny in my mind that someone would presume to know what is in the hearts and minds of other people or how their relationship works behind closed doors. The presense of a word does not define dominance in my opinion, it is just utterly ridiculous to think that it does. Dominance and submission are a way of being in my mind. I have to wonder about dominance that would be challenged by the use of a word to communicate the distress of someone in masochist mode, I would not play with a dominant that felt his dominance could be so easily challenged, who felt that if I communicated distress to him that he was not in control anymore.

I took a break from this site when Sinergy and I broke up for a few months. I rethought the entire submissive thing mainly because the men that approached me could not just "be" dominant, they seemed to have something to prove... My submit button was broken. One of the things I most appreciate about my Daddy is that he just is who he is, allowing me to be who I am... and it feels submissive to me, and he communicates that his interaction with me makes him feel dominant... In the end we only remember the way that we feel, all the other "stuff" doesn't matter.

In the end people should do what feels right to them, if having a safeword feels right and it is not the only tool a couple uses in their play to be safe.. that is what they should do....twue dominance and submission is not even a factor in the equation in my opinion. There is no safe way to do a dangerous thing, as my Daddy constantly reminds me, all we can do is endeavor to reduce the risks.



_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 153
RE: Safe words - 11/12/2007 8:53:09 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		Rover,
quote:

So why are you so emotionally invested in being seen as not having a safeword?  Though it really doesn't matter... call it whatever you like so long as it works for you. 

You misinterpret adamant belief for emotion. I have seen first hand, and spoken with people who had very bad experiences directly attributed to safe-words. Its from that perspective that I see them as dangerous and my adamant position comes from that believe. Can you get just a hurt without them? ABSOLUTELY. But playing without them insures you either know the risk, or trust the person instead of a word. That's worth the redundancy.

The other argument is what it is. A person keeping control is the issue not what determines when that control is used. My position addresses that fact. Observing a protruding bone indicates its broken. Did having a safe-word stop it from being so? Maybe you think a Dom would require to hear the magic word before stopping; however I think it better to know the person well enough to ascertain he/she would have the visual capacity to see the bone, the mental skill to appreciate the occurrence should end the scene, and the emotional self restraint not to be concerned with whatever personal goal he/she had before the accident. 
quote:

I certainly hope you do not believe everything you read online.  I know I don't.

I would also say that everything that has occurred is not documented on the internet either.
quote:

Honestly, I know of no one that engages in the scene dynamics you described.  No one.  Not a single person.  And yet many of them routinely utilize safe words.  So either I'm missing something that is plainly evident to you, or you're describing something that does not exist.  I'm betting on the latter
You say so on the internet - so my example never happened and could never happen. If you have to believe that to make your point so be it. Whatever the scenario, the submissive's safe-word controls the scene. You choose to not believe that people remain stoic, even though they said so here. You choose not to believe that some dominants/tops, especially with limited or no experience, use the bottoms ability to safe word as a rationalization to increase the intensity as they say so here. You have to - I don't. But I'd profess that's it is MUCH safer to think my scenario, or anything similar, could happen and does rather than profess belief in a practice that provides a false sense of security.

We already agree a safe-word offers no magical protection to the submissive. It only requires one occurrence where the dominant is relying on a submissive's safe-word to gage intensity to make its use dangerous. That thought may not go through your mind. That works for you - GREAT! Safe-word away! You want to warrant each and every other person representing themselves as a 'Dominant' has your same thought process?

Now address the fundamental aspect of their use. When the 'Red' word is used, assuming its because of the protruding bone and not because the submissive's nose itches, is it before or after the sensation? 'Red' may have ended it - it didn't make the sub 'safe' from experiencing it; clairvoyant ability notwithstanding.

Eliminating and/or not relying on safe-words isn't cutting off communication its not putting them in place time to knowing your partner. It doesn't put a magic word or words in place of ongoing clear communication and touch. No safe word play makes the consequence of what occurs a shared responsibility. It requires knowledge of your partner. 

Its obvious that sometimes that knowledge means you know that he/she can't give up that level of control. They want to keep the 'remote control' in their hand even if they don't want, and never bother, to change the channel. The keeping of that power, that dominance, is something they need. So be it, so it is; unemotional but pragmatic.

Keep the power, relinquish the power. Able to stop the scene - you have the power. It isn't a matter of 'true'. Just as not using a safe-word isn't an indication of 'true' anything either. On the other hand, I have seen and been with some very dominant people represent themselves as 'submissive' because they enjoy the sensations attributed to the submissive side of the flogger. Safe-words provide the vehicle to experience the sensation without relinquishing the dominance. It's a win/win for those that need and want to maintain that power to be with people who really don't want all the responsibility in the first place. Nose itch or bone break - 'Red' means stop.

Sure you may get to go again - but you did stop, not because you wanted to but because of the authority, dominance, of the sign. Here again, we agree, the person who has the sign or in control of putting up has the power or dominance to stop you. Sometimes they turn the sign around and it just says slow. Either way - it wasn't you at that point dominating the road. And to make the other point, seeing a signalman with his/her sign facilitation traffic flow at a road construction site; if you just drove right through the sign and/or the man holding it - did it keep the person and/or sign as safe as they thought they were?

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 154
RE: Safe words - 11/12/2007 2:06:26 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Merc the problem is as I see it thus far.
6 or 7 people have indicated that Red does not equal stop but rather it equals I Have information you might need about my mental or physical safety situation. Yet you persist in contending that Red = stop.

I unserstand the basic premise that the ability to force a stop is a manner of control. I'm not disagreeing with that concept I'm disagreeing with the premise that a safeword constitutes that ability to force the scene to stop.

Case #1 I give Jill a safeword to use to inform me when she has reached what she believes are her limits, I make the agreement that I will stop the scene if/when the word is used. In my world that measn I have given her the responsibility to communicate when her limit has been reached. I set the condition that I would stop in that case on myself. Can that responsibility be used in a manner that is inconsistant with the negotiated agreement? Sure it can. However if we assume everyone is going to operate in good faith then the control has not shifted.

If Jill decides that she wants to stop the scene before she reaches her limits then she faces a decission, LIE and use the safeword before the agreed condition has been met, or attempt to communicate her desire to stop in some other manner.
I make a huge assumption that I know I am making when I give someone a safeword. That they will only use it for the intended purpose and no other.

Case #2 Elegant has a safeword she knows based on 8+years together that she can use it only as a means of comunicating that she is in distress of some sort that she is having real difficulty dealing with. When she uses the safeword she knows one thing and only that one thing. That I will ask her what the problem is? and ten I will decide if I wish to continue the scene enough to have her suffer through whatever distress she is in or I will take some course of action to relieve te suffering without nessisarily stopping the scene, or I will stop te scene having had the infrmation communicated to me.
Red does not = stop in the case of Elegant's safeword. Red means I am in serious distress and need to communicate that distress to you.

Both of these cases have different contentions as to how safewords do not transfer authority/ dominance back to the submissive/slave/bottom.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 155
RE: Safe words - 11/12/2007 2:57:16 PM   
MidnightMaiden


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Joined: 10/22/2007
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quote:

Its obvious that sometimes that knowledge means you know that he/she can't give up that level of control. They want to keep the 'remote control' in their hand even if they don't want, and never bother, to change the channel. The keeping of that power, that dominance, is something they need. So be it, so it is; unemotional but pragmatic.


This sparked a curious thought in my head.... if this belief is true, that holding the safeword is like holding the remote, then doesn't the sub have that power simply by knowledge of what a safeword is.  No disrespect intended.... I assume Beth has read this thread... so imagine previous to this she had absolutely no knowledge of what a safeword was so no power to use one, but know she knows that RED is a commonly used one.  Doesn't she now have that remote, whether she chooses to use it or not?  She may call out Red, and you may not stop, but that's not the point, her calling out it is the key factor, right?  Attempting to control the scene?  It seems that as submissives we have no choice whether or not to have that remote in our hands, its whether we choose to push the buttons.  Could you assume then that the only D/s relationship that is not affected by the potential underplay is one in which the sub was kept in a bubble and had no idea what a safeword was?

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 156
RE: Safe words - 11/12/2007 3:08:36 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

Midnight Maiden: It seems that as submissives we have no choice whether or not to have that remote in our hands, its whether we choose to push the buttons.  Could you assume then that the only D/s relationship that is not affected by the potential underplay is one in which the sub was kept in a bubble and had no idea what a safeword was?

MM,
You fail to consider another possibility. beth never got the "remote" until she knew what a TV was and what kind of 'program' that my personal network broad-casted. You are absolutely correct. A lack of experience in and of itself is dangerous. I say it's more dangerous with responsibility for control than it is without it. It requires more than a magic word or a magic remote button. As it was, beth didn't have any experience regarding this lifestyle with or without safe-word. When she learned of their use, she acknowledged that even having one, wouldn't do her any good. It would take about 1 minute of observing her during any scene to appreciate that fact.

Are you of the belief that acting upon an expressed safe-word should be arbitrary? You say; "you may not stop". When you play with someone and use a safe-word is it used with the belief he/she "may not stop"? And if you use it and he/she does stop for any reason, wasn't it you who controlled that action?

I disagree in your ability to choose. You have a choice to have a safe-word or not. You have a choice to trust or not. Once making that choice, you don't have the choice to adjust the volume. It makes your initial choice more important and it also makes you think about the consequences of it. I see no problem with taking the time to make those choices and surrendering or not.  

Kept in a bubble without a safe-word? I'd argue that a safe-word is akin to being in a protective bubble. Giving the impression of protection but in actuality made of soap.

No disrespect taken.

Archer,
I addressed the issue but agree its not clear. My posts are pointed to those that have a word, red or whatever, kept by the submissive that stops whatever the activity.

It should noted that have no magic words between us, but never has it been represented that no words are exchanged. she is not, and has never been prevented from speaking. I have ongoing dialog with her during any and all of our trysts. Sometimes its with the conscience beth and sometimes it's on a more intimate level with her body. she isn't stopped from noting that her nose itches. However to get me to scratch it, I may require more of beth than a disassociated word like "yellow" which would initiate the inquiry to determine what's wrong. "Master, your slave's nose itches" suffices, and what I use to scratch it, if I scratch it at all doesn't impact the mind set of either of us. Who knows, the same "yellow" can mean the pool man showed up early and is peeking in the window. But I'd rather know that with the first expression versus getting involved with a word association process. Meanwhile, I don't rely on her to maintain an ongoing evaluation over every stroke to determine whether it hurts too little, too much, or is Goldilocks perfect.
quote:

When she uses the safe-word she knows one thing and only that one thing. That I will ask her what the problem is?
I honestly don't think the condition you describe is reason to employ a safe-word. Doesn't it make any problem a two step problem instead of one? And what of Elegant? She's got something wrong somewhere on her body or in her mind. Instead of expressing it, she first has to convert the feeling to a safe-word. You then hear the safe-word and have to get the specifics from her. Does the process represent the most efficient manner of communicating the issue causing distress? Having a similarly long term and involved relationship with beth, I'd much prefer eliminating the safe-word and just to addressing the cause for using one.

It is in this representation that the distinction is only semantics. beth's expression that her nose itch's is no different than the word Elegant uses to get your attention. Except I know exactly what beth thinks is wrong with the first sound. Your example has the safe-word as the start of a determination process. Not better or worse, but different; serving our individual taste and preference. I'm sure you can make an argument as to why your way is more efficient and effective too.  

But again, this is not how the OP and many who've replied her represent how safe-words are used, or why they are "safe". When safe-words are used as they are commonly; I stand behind my positions regarding dominance and safety. In its colloquial reference I also stand behind the position that any magic word considered protective is dangerous for both parties involved.

quote:

I make a huge assumption that I know I am making when I give someone a safe-word. That they will only use it for the intended purpose and no other.
I agree and without any qualitative judgment implied; for many reasons I don't want to make similar assumptions. I prefer that any submissive, short term or life partner, trust and rely primarily on me. I want them to let go of as much as possible of their personal responsibly for themselves. We've gone from generalities to personal specifics, however I have a basis and goal for my belief.

Contrary to how it may be coming off in print, this isn't a result of an egomaniac belief that I know better than them what they can handle. Instead it is my belief that the safe-word evaluation process inhibits the process of the submissive appreciating and surrendering to whatever sensation they happen to be experiencing. I love the rapture, "eyes rolled back in the head" look and expression I obtain. I'm not saying that look is impossible to obtain with a safe-word, but I'd argue that whatever part of the submissive's brain that is allocated to the safe-word evaluation process does have some effect on the journey to get there.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 11/12/2007 3:40:04 PM >

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 157
RE: Safe words - 11/12/2007 4:06:25 PM   
xoxi


Posts: 1066
Status: offline 		My Lord and I don't use safewords.  It's a personal choice of ours - I'm not saying that safewords are an inherently bad thing, but we refuse to use them...basically for the reason that Merc said - it places control of the scene in my hands.  If he is whipping me and it's starting to hurt too bad, I can say yellow and he will switch to something else.  Or I can say red and he will stop it.  That basically puts me in charge of how intense the scene will be and how long it will last.  A safeword is something that has to be obeyed instantly - it's more or less a command.  I say red, and he must stop.  I'm sorry but I don't like the idea of commanding my Master. 

If I say something like "Master I'm begging you, please stop, I can't take any more," my Lord is not a sociopath - if he has a general idea of my pain tolerance, combined with the fact that I'm telling him I can't take any more, he will most likely stop...or at least slow things down to the point that I'm not injured.  But it's his decision, not mine.  In the case of an emergency, if I said "Master I think I just sprained my wrist/broke my arm/dislocated a finger/etc." or if it was more urgent, simply "help, I'm injured" to get his attention so I can explain.  Most Dominants and Masters have a protective side to them and while 'stop' might not get their attention immediately, 'help' usually does.  However 'help' is NOT a safeword for me...it's not a command for him to stop that he must obey.  It's just an attempt to get his attention.

Also another reason I don't use a safeword is more of a mental thing for me...it makes my slavery seem less real.  I don't do scenes that can be ended when the director (or slave) yells "cut!"  Using a safeword to instantly halt what we're doing just seems so false to me...it's like he's playing the role of Master and I'm playing the role of slave and that can be stopped at the push of a button - as soon as I say 'red' he isn't the Master anymore, he is obligated to stop what he's doing.  What is he then?  And more importantly, what am I?  The slave that can command my Master?  I would feel like someone play acting the role of a slave until it gets to be too much, and then deciding to step out of that 'role' and order him to stop rather than communicate with him and ask him to stop.

I belong to my Lord - I am his slave.  I don't command him.  I can inform him, I can ask him, I can beg him...but it would really bother me to know that I can use a word that will command him to stop, and that according to the dynamics of our relationship he has to obey it.

One thing I would like to add...when I was younger and first learning about the local BDSM scene, I played casually with two friends of mine, both well respected Dominants in the community.  With both of them I used a safeword, but it was an entirely different situation.  I was not their slave...I wasn't even *their* submissive.  I was a friend, who was playing the role of their submissive for the evening.  They had no actual authority over me, we were equals who were playing Dominant and Submissive, and my pleasure was just as important as theirs was.  I no longer play casually because I don't particularly care for it, but if I did, I would use safewords then.  The reason I don't use them in my relationship is because they negate the Master/slave dynamic in my eyes - as far as casual partners go it *is* a 'scene' that can be stopped, and the participants *are* actors playing their roles.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 158
RE: Safe words - 11/12/2007 4:22:27 PM   
MidnightMaiden


Posts: 142
Joined: 10/22/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Are you of the belief that acting upon an expressed safe-word should be arbitrary? You say; "you may not stop". When you play with someone and use a safe-word is it used with the belief he/she "may not stop"? And if you use it and he/she does stop for any reason, wasn't it you who controlled that action?

I disagree in your ability to choose. You have a choice to have a safe-word or not. You have a choice to trust or not. Once making that choice, you don't have the choice to adjust the volume. It makes your initial choice more important and it also makes you think about the consequences of it. I see no problem with taking the time to make those choices and surrendering or not.


Thank you for your thoughtful response, I always enjoy reading posts by yourself and Beth, I have learnt a great deal :)

My dilemma is this... I have no desire to use a safeword.  I do trust.  During breathplay there are times where my body struggles, but my mind is not afraid.  But I have knowledge of that safeword, I know it exists, its a universal BDSM language, whether it is incorporated into each individual relationship or not.  So I find myself, when on the receiving end of particularly painful administrations, thinking to myself "IF we used a safeword, is this a point at which I would be saying it".  We don't use a safeword, but that knowledge itself is still there, whether I wish it to be or not.  Does that make sense?

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 159
RE: Safe words - 11/12/2007 5:22:14 PM   
phedre81


Posts: 56
Joined: 10/29/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

My Lord and I don't use safewords.  It's a personal choice of ours - I'm not saying that safewords are an inherently bad thing, but we refuse to use them...basically for the reason that Merc said - it places control of the scene in my hands.  If he is whipping me and it's starting to hurt too bad, I can say yellow and he will switch to something else.  Or I can say red and he will stop it.  That basically puts me in charge of how intense the scene will be and how long it will last.  A safeword is something that has to be obeyed instantly - it's more or less a command.  I say red, and he must stop.  I'm sorry but I don't like the idea of commanding my Master. 

If I say something like "Master I'm begging you, please stop, I can't take any more," my Lord is not a sociopath - if he has a general idea of my pain tolerance, combined with the fact that I'm telling him I can't take any more, he will most likely stop...or at least slow things down to the point that I'm not injured.  But it's his decision, not mine.  In the case of an emergency, if I said "Master I think I just sprained my wrist/broke my arm/dislocated a finger/etc." or if it was more urgent, simply "help, I'm injured" to get his attention so I can explain.  Most Dominants and Masters have a protective side to them and while 'stop' might not get their attention immediately, 'help' usually does.  However 'help' is NOT a safeword for me...it's not a command for him to stop that he must obey.  It's just an attempt to get his attention.

Also another reason I don't use a safeword is more of a mental thing for me...it makes my slavery seem less real.  I don't do scenes that can be ended when the director (or slave) yells "cut!"  Using a safeword to instantly halt what we're doing just seems so false to me...it's like he's playing the role of Master and I'm playing the role of slave and that can be stopped at the push of a button - as soon as I say 'red' he isn't the Master anymore, he is obligated to stop what he's doing.  What is he then?  And more importantly, what am I?  The slave that can command my Master?  I would feel like someone play acting the role of a slave until it gets to be too much, and then deciding to step out of that 'role' and order him to stop rather than communicate with him and ask him to stop.

I belong to my Lord - I am his slave.  I don't command him.  I can inform him, I can ask him, I can beg him...but it would really bother me to know that I can use a word that will command him to stop, and that according to the dynamics of our relationship he has to obey it.

One thing I would like to add...when I was younger and first learning about the local BDSM scene, I played casually with two friends of mine, both well respected Dominants in the community.  With both of them I used a safeword, but it was an entirely different situation.  I was not their slave...I wasn't even *their* submissive.  I was a friend, who was playing the role of their submissive for the evening.  They had no actual authority over me, we were equals who were playing Dominant and Submissive, and my pleasure was just as important as theirs was.  I no longer play casually because I don't particularly care for it, but if I did, I would use safewords then.  The reason I don't use them in my relationship is because they negate the Master/slave dynamic in my eyes - as far as casual partners go it *is* a 'scene' that can be stopped, and the participants *are* actors playing their roles.



The way you expressed yourself here really clarified this for me.

With the Domme I met with several times, who was just introducing me to the scene, we WERE sort of "role playing"--we were playing at least, and I wasn't HERS, we both acknowledged that I was gaining experience, testing the waters.

With my current partner (at the risk of pulling in tangents from another thread that's been on my mind) we are not in a TPE relationship.  I have a safe word, and I've used it.

However, like I noted before, I think simply using words that were not assigned special meaning, would have the same effect.  With my current partner, if she felt comfortable with it, I would be willing to do away with the safe word, and trust her judgment explicitly--if I said, "Please, I don't think I can take any more" I don't KNOW that she would stop.  But I know that I would trust her judgment on whether or not stopping needed to happen right then.

I suppose if your safe word doesn't mean the Master HAS to stop right then, it doesn't give the sub the power.  But, I have to agree with Merc that if the safe word doesn't mean STOP, why is it actually better than simply communicating what the problem is??

(in reply to xoxi)
Profile   Post #: 160
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