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RE: Safe words - 11/12/2007 5:48:47 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

You misinterpret adamant belief for emotion. I have seen first hand, and spoken with people who had very bad experiences directly attributed to safe-words. Its from that perspective that I see them as dangerous and my adamant position comes from that believe.


This really is fallacy of the highest order.  No safeword has ever hurt anyone.  Here, let me demonstrate... "Red".  There... anyone harmed?  Ignorance hurts people, and if your point is that people need to be educated then we're in agreement.  But if your point is that ignorant people have been harmed because they misunderstand how a safeword is properly used, and based upon that safewords are inherently "bad" or "wrong", then you're posturing yourself as the "SSC Police".  David Stein has written about his concerns regarding the misapplication of SSC to create a list of "SSC" and "non-SSC" activities for everyone and you're simply stating that safewords are not SSC (you must be a big proponent).  Joseph Bean has written about his displeasure with the politically correct "equality of outcome" (my term, not his) which is the precursor for these SSC and non-SSC lists, and the resulting "immitative play" (his term, not mine) that it engenders. 

Automobiles can be dangerous... 46,000 Americans die each year in automobile related deaths (note: automobiles have never killed anyone either, but people have killed themselves and others by misusing automobiles).  Hundreds of thousands are injured each year.  How does that compare with the number of people you claim to have been killed or injured by the misuse of safewords?  Are you on an anti-automobile crusade as well?
 
Jay Wiseman's studies have shown that suspensions are the number one cause of BDSM injuries to both bottoms and Tops (bottoms most often injure their heads from falls, Tops most often injure their shoulders from trying to catch a falling bottom).  Do you advocate that people should not engage in play that includes suspensions? 

The number one cause of scene related deaths is from autoerotica.  Do you advocate that people not engage in autoerotica?
 
Bottom line is that you are portraying as "dangerous" a communication method that many folks use routinely to their benefit, and which (for them) reduces risk of injury and death.  All based upon some unspecified anecdotal stories that you claim to have heard.  And frankly, even if they are factual they don't demonstrate the danger inherent to safewords, they demonstrate the danger inherent to ignorance.  Ignorance is just as dangerous (or more?) when applied to knives, breath play, cutting and carving, suspensions, etc. and I don't see you advocating that people not engage in those activities.  You're simply being disingenuous.

quote:


Can you get just a hurt without them? ABSOLUTELY. But playing without them insures you either know the risk, or trust the person instead of a word. That's worth the redundancy.


Playing without safewords insures nothing... nothing at all.  It simply insures that one form of communication will no longer be available.  Using no safewords does not magically inform the ignorant.  Using no safewords will not magically cause those in a rush to play to slow down and be certain that they actually trust their partners.  You complain about the "magic" qualities the ignorant assign to safewords?  How about the "magical" qualities you're assigning to not using them?

quote:


The other argument is what it is. A person keeping control is the issue not what determines when that control is used. My position addresses that fact. Observing a protruding bone indicates its broken.


So you're limiting yourself to the information available to you via your own personal observation, and denying yourself the information available to you from your partner.  If that works in your relationship, great.  But you'll have to accept that some other folks find value in the information our partners have... information that is not available to us through our powers of observation.  Non of us is all knowing and all seeing.

quote:


Did having a safe-word stop it from being so? 


Not having a safeword does not stop it from being so either.  So what?  The issue is conveying information in order to do something about it.  Hopefully before it happens if possible (as in "I think that's too much pressure on my leg and it feels like it may snap!!").  But even if the information is conveyed afterward, it's likely that the bottom knows that damage has been done before your powers of observation will tell you. 

quote:


Maybe you think a Dom would require to hear the magic word before stopping; however I think it better to know the person well enough to ascertain he/she would have the visual capacity to see the bone, the mental skill to appreciate the occurrence should end the scene, and the emotional self restraint not to be concerned with whatever personal goal he/she had before the accident. 


Now you're just being silly, and you know it.  No one (least of all I) has said that a Dominant should do what they want until they hear a safeword.  You're just choosing to ignore all the people that correct you on that point.  A safeword is not the *only* source of information available to a Dominant (as you've pointed out, there is personal observation).  It's just one source of information, and one *more* source of information than available to those who do not communicate.

quote:


Whatever the scenario, the submissive's safe-word controls the scene.


You and beth are driving along one fine sunny California morning and about to pass an intersection.  Although you're driving, you fail to notice the car approaching from the side and obviously about to run the red light and t-bone your car.  But beth sees it clearly.  Does beth yell "STOP!!" to you as you enter the intersection, or does she keep her mouth shut because she's not the one in control and should not be giving you orders?  Or does it depend upon which side of the car is going to be hit?
 
You've just finished a wonderful dinner that beth cooked, and sit down in your favorite chair to relax.  As you're about to light a cigar, beth notices the odor of gas and realizes that the gas starter on the fireplace has been left on.  Does she yell "STOP!!" before you light the match, or does she keep her mouth shut because she's not the one in control and should not be giving you orders?  Or does it depend upon the value of your life insurance policy?
 
You're headed to work one morning and beth, being the loving girl that she is, walks you out to the car and kisses you through the open driver's side window.  As you shift the car into reverse and look over your shoulder to back out of the driveway, beth notices that your child is sitting behind the car playing jacks, too low for you to see through the back window.  Does she yell "STOP!!" before you run over your child, or does she keep her mouth shut because she's not the one in control and should not be giving you orders?  Or does it depend upon whether your answer is hypothetical and theoretical?

quote:


You choose to not believe that people remain stoic, even though they said so here.


What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

quote:


You choose not to believe that some dominants/tops, especially with limited or no experience, use the bottoms ability to safe word as a rationalization to increase the intensity as they say so here.


Is that beyond the realm of possibility?  Heck, no (though I've never heard of it myself).  But what's your point?  Those are the same idiots that pick up a bullwhip for the first time and knock an appendage or two off of their bottom.  Or seriously burn their bottom with hot wax because they have no idea what they're doing.  Ignorance hurts.  What do you propose to do... eliminate safewords along with everything else that may be potentially harmful in the hands of an idiot?  What would your version of "safe" BDSM look like... a marshmallow fight?

quote:


You have to - I don't. But I'd profess that's it is MUCH safer to think my scenario, or anything similar, could happen and does rather than profess belief in a practice that provides a false sense of security.


And it's MUCH safer to sit home on your bed and poke each other with pillows.  What's your point?  Besides, I would argue that it's MUCH safer to have as much quality communication and information available during the course of a scene in order to conduct it in the safest manner possible.  And eliminating information from the bottom denies a Top some quality information.

quote:


We already agree a safe-word offers no magical protection to the submissive. It only requires one occurrence where the dominant is relying on a submissive's safe-word to gage intensity to make its use dangerous.


And it only requires one occurance where the Dominant is relying solely upon their personal observation and they miss something (or it cannot be seen) to make not using safewords dangerous.  But what is your point?  100 % assured safety?  It's not possible.  Not with safewords, and not without them.  But if the issue is one of which provides the best chance at safety (ie: mitigates the most risk), there's no question that using safewords is "better". 

quote:


That thought may not go through your mind. That works for you - GREAT! Safe-word away! You want to warrant each and every other person representing themselves as a 'Dominant' has your same thought process?


As if not using them warrants anything at all?  Really, you're off the deep end here. 

quote:


Now address the fundamental aspect of their use. When the 'Red' word is used, assuming its because of the protruding bone and not because the submissive's nose itches, is it before or after the sensation? 'Red' may have ended it - it didn't make the sub 'safe' from experiencing it; clairvoyant ability notwithstanding.


"Red" may or may not prevent something from happening.  All things being equal (ie: the Dominant's personal observation alone is not sufficient) not saying "Red" (or just saying... "Honey, you need to check this out") will assure that it will not be prevented.  In other words, not using a safeword will prevent nothing.  Using a safeword will prevent some things.  Nothing will prevent all things.  It's really pretty simple when you think about it.

quote:


Eliminating and/or not relying on safe-words isn't cutting off communication its not putting them in place time to knowing your partner. It doesn't put a magic word or words in place of ongoing clear communication and touch. No safe word play makes the consequence of what occurs a shared responsibility. It requires knowledge of your partner. 


Who says it's an either or proposition?  It's not "know your partner" or use a safeword.  It's know your partner and use a safeword.  They're not mutually exclusive.  And clear communication is a safeword.  Anything that conveys critical information is a safeword.  The only reason "Red" or anything else developed as a safeword was to account for the pleading associated with scenes that mimick non-consent (such as rape scenes) in which "Stop!!" and other such plainly spoken English would be a natural part of the scene, but not indicative of the intentions of the participants.  And "Red" in particular became popularized from use in public dungeons and clubs, where everyone needed to be on the same page (ie: the dungeon masters need a universal communication device). 

quote:


Its obvious that sometimes that knowledge means you know that he/she can't give up that level of control. They want to keep the 'remote control' in their hand even if they don't want, and never bother, to change the channel. The keeping of that power, that dominance, is something they need. So be it, so it is; unemotional but pragmatic.


Again, it has nothing to do with control.  Everything to do with communication.  You have an unsurpassed ability to ignore and talk past the many people who explain this to you, and put words into people's mouths as if you know "what they really meant to say".  You're telling other people what it means to them, and frankly that's a bit too "one true way" for my taste.  You don't want to communicate with your bottom, that's great.  But don't be telling what other people's communication means to them. 

quote:


Keep the power, relinquish the power. Able to stop the scene - you have the power.


Yeah, this is getting redundant.  Try reading the examples given previously.  I think you'll find them illuminating.

quote:


It isn't a matter of 'true'. Just as not using a safe-word isn't an indication of 'true' anything either.


So then why are you saying (quite clearly) that "twue" control means no safeword?  Honestly, I don't subscribe to your "one twue way".

quote:


On the other hand, I have seen and been with some very dominant people represent themselves as 'submissive' because they enjoy the sensations attributed to the submissive side of the flogger. Safe-words provide the vehicle to experience the sensation without relinquishing the dominance. It's a win/win for those that need and want to maintain that power to be with people who really don't want all the responsibility in the first place. Nose itch or bone break - 'Red' means stop.


Dominants who bottom is another issue entirely.  Just as Dominants who have a "one twue way" about control is another issue as well. Though perhaps we could start a thread about it. 

quote:


Sure you may get to go again - but you did stop, not because you wanted to but because of the authority, dominance, of the sign. Here again, we agree, the person who has the sign or in control of putting up has the power or dominance to stop you. Sometimes they turn the sign around and it just says slow. Either way - it wasn't you at that point dominating the road. And to make the other point, seeing a signalman with his/her sign facilitation traffic flow at a road construction site; if you just drove right through the sign and/or the man holding it - did it keep the person and/or sign as safe as they thought they were?


Believe me, I stop at stop signs because I want to.  Same thing with traffic lights.  In fact, there have been times when I have chosen not to stop at stop signs and traffic lights (try driving through rural Iowa or Ohio sometime).  So if I stop, it's because I choose to do so (it's the safe thing to do and I value my life). 
 
But really, you're just sounding like Jon Jacobs with this silliness, pretty much saying that no one "twuly" be Dominant if they respond to anything beyond their primal urges.  It's not even a good fantasy, much less a reality.
 
John

< Message edited by Rover -- 11/12/2007 6:47:14 PM >

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 161
RE: Safe words - 11/12/2007 6:06:52 PM   
kc692


Posts: 3701
Joined: 3/24/2005
Status: offline 		I am of the old school.... I use green, yellow and red.  If I have any questions I ask for a color.  The sub/slave will use yellow and red on their own if they need it.  I have never asked and been given a red or told red, however, I have gotten yellow.  I do like to push limits, though, smiles, just safely.

_____________________________

Anyone can overpower; not many can INSPIRE.....

This is only MY opinion. If it's not yours, let's agree in advance to agree to disagree, OR, you can just get the fuck over what I had to say:)

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 162
RE: Safe words - 11/13/2007 8:37:12 AM   
Elegant


Posts: 1024
Joined: 3/15/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth


Archer,
I addressed the issue but agree its not clear. My posts are pointed to those that have a word, red or whatever, kept by the submissive that stops whatever the activity.

It should noted that have no magic words between us, but never has it been represented that no words are exchanged. she is not, and has never been prevented from speaking. I have ongoing dialog with her during any and all of our trysts. Sometimes its with the conscience beth and sometimes it's on a more intimate level with her body. she isn't stopped from noting that her nose itches. However to get me to scratch it, I may require more of beth than a disassociated word like "yellow" which would initiate the inquiry to determine what's wrong. "Master, your slave's nose itches" suffices, and what I use to scratch it, if I scratch it at all doesn't impact the mind set of either of us. Who knows, the same "yellow" can mean the pool man showed up early and is peeking in the window. But I'd rather know that with the first expression versus getting involved with a word association process. Meanwhile, I don't rely on her to maintain an ongoing evaluation over every stroke to determine whether it hurts too little, too much, or is Goldilocks perfect.

quote:

When she uses the safe-word she knows one thing and only that one thing. That I will ask her what the problem is?


I honestly don't think the condition you describe is reason to employ a safe-word. Doesn't it make any problem a two step problem instead of one? And what of Elegant? She's got something wrong somewhere on her body or in her mind. Instead of expressing it, she first has to convert the feeling to a safe-word. You then hear the safe-word and have to get the specifics from her. Does the process represent the most efficient manner of communicating the issue causing distress? Having a similarly long term and involved relationship with beth, I'd much prefer eliminating the safe-word and just to addressing the cause for using one.

It is in this representation that the distinction is only semantics. beth's expression that her nose itch's is no different than the word Elegant uses to get your attention. Except I know exactly what beth thinks is wrong with the first sound. Your example has the safe-word as the start of a determination process. Not better or worse, but different; serving our individual taste and preference. I'm sure you can make an argument as to why your way is more efficient and effective too.  

But again, this is not how the OP and many who've replied her represent how safe-words are used, or why they are "safe". When safe-words are used as they are commonly; I stand behind my positions regarding dominance and safety. In its colloquial reference I also stand behind the position that any magic word considered protective is dangerous for both parties involved.


Yes Merc, often the use of the word (red, yellow) is the precurser to a second step of communication. I have been ingrained (conditioned) to use this word even when in the deepest of space and not even knowing my name or where I am. It would be near impossible for me to be conditioned to utter every posssible problem that could occur ('there is a fire ant crawling up my leg', 'the cracker just wrapped and ripped out my tongue') plus...sometimes there is a major problem but, in my state of incoherent pain/pleasure I really don't know what the problem is at first. If I am not incoherent then this multi-step method of communication is similiar to a run-on sentence: 'RedMasterthereisawasponmynose'

The word is not 'safe'..the word is an introduction to communication. It is more efficient and effective for us.




_____________________________

Elegant
~Slave To Master Archer

http://www.FantasiesInLeather.com

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 163
RE: Safe words - 11/13/2007 8:43:49 AM   
Puppy4goodHome


Posts: 1448
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: Beachwood Ohio and a few others
Status: offline 		I Use the Light chain  Green For please more  Yellow for please more gentle red is STOp and Baige would be your borning me to tears naw just joking about that one LOL ;)
but in all seriousness
the light chian is what i use
and if I'm gagged and cant say a word i have a hand signal " marks up on each hand like was it Nixon who said I'm not a crook thats the hand signal i use and if hands are not visible then will always discuss something before hand also
 
 
puppy

(in reply to missturbation)
Profile   Post #: 164
RE: Safe words - 11/13/2007 9:23:09 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		John,
Nice diatribe and of course you need to label anything not in alignment with your beliefs as "silly", "off the deep end", or assign it as "one true way". Find any similar references in my posts?  Saying that having or not having safe words DOES NOT make anyone "true" anything is a reference to "one twue way"? REALLY?

Then there is the fact that you treat any personal experience that confirms the possible danger as "what's that got to do with the price of tea in China?" I think it is obvious which side has emotional involvement. Really John, making arguments for your position is fine; however name calling and tossing out insults usually speaks to a lack of confidence. Besides John, where have I ever expressed any sense of absolute authority or lifestyle dogma? If anything I downplay the absolutism of my side. I only point to how the other side doesn't work as intended in many cases. It only has to not work in one to point out my broad stoke opinion - Safe-words do NOT insure, or keep you safe. I'll make the converse point too. Not having Safe-word do NOT insure, or keep you safe. The previous 9 pages document evidence on both sides. Going to play with someone for the first time - consider both sides and make your own decision. Which should be each and everyone's "one twue way"; even your's John.

There may be no difference in the end result of playing with or without a safe-word; however in the case of having one - you may believe you are safe and be in danger. That is the danger of them. But again - it matters not; safe word away!

Unless you are playing with a clairvoyant you will always hear the safe-word after the fact or given by someone in charge of the scene. It doesn't matter how you drive, walk, or answer the phone. I speak only of the context of actually having a BDSM scene, session, play-date, or experience; and of course I only refer to actual physical in person contact.

I've said in the last few posts that posting on this thread is redundant. Obviously redundancy is necessary.

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 165
RE: Safe words - 11/13/2007 10:11:47 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

Midnight Maiden: So I find myself, when on the receiving end of particularly painful administrations, thinking to myself "IF we used a safeword, is this a point at which I would be saying it".  We don't use a safeword, but that knowledge itself is still there, whether I wish it to be or not.  Does that make sense?

MM,
It makes a lot of sense.

Keep this in mind; the scene doesn't end when the 'toys', even the human variety, are put away.

The situation you are describing is a great topic for discussion between you and your partner. Try best to describe to him what you are feeling and have him try to recollect what your face and body looked like while you had those feelings. Focus as best you can on getting you partner to appreciate the reference point of; "IF we used a safe-word", this is the point at which you'd be saying it.

Next time, ask him when, or if, he thought that occurred. The better he is at 'reading' the more pleasurable the experience will be for the both of you. You, because you'll feel you can rely on him for your safety; him, because you've given him more insight and feedback which he can use to be more confident in what he is doing. However remember, it is a moving target. 

There should never be a time when after play 'de-briefing' isn't a regular occurrence. It isn't in the style of a performance review. It is more oriented, and has a goal of, future performance enhancement. Initiating discussions and questions should come from both sides. "What were you feeling when I did...." "Why did (didn't) you 'x'?" "Next time, I want to add/try..." A dominant has no idea how what they are doing is being processed by the submissive they are doing it to. Conversely, its similarly difficult for a submissive to understand the mental, emotional process going on while the dominant inflicts or initiates sensation. You'll only get that knowledge by talking about it. "How did that feel?" "WOW - You looked 'out of it' what did I do?"

Look, we ask these type of questions regarding movies, music, drink, and food when we are in the "getting to know you" stage of a relationship. Why not apply the same regarding something as important as your physical interaction? The most world renowned gourmet asks questions of the cook and waiter when visiting a restaurant for the first time. The most experienced of Dominant or submissive should be just as adamant about letting their partner know their tastes and have a vested interest in knowing their partner's. The result is a much more enjoyable 'meal'.  

Making this personal; when we first were together I had to amend my reaction to tears. beth cries often during play. I used to always back down the intensity when she did. I came to know her better though to realize that she has as much control of her tears during intense play as she does her other bodily reactions. It is cathartic for her, and sometimes she doesn't recall crying afterward. I learned that not all tears are created equal, and you can shed "tears of joy" during intense pain and/or humiliation.

Many people are very quick to take their clothes off, exchange limits, hop up on a spanking bench and go at it. I've had some very fun times enjoying just that type of activity. The fun intensifies when you get emotionally and mentally naked. And speaking from a perspective of nearly five years with the same person, you can always get more 'naked'. There is always another layer to peel back, always another nuance to try, always another 'limit' to exceed. The last time we 'played' our intensity had never been more intense, until the next time. The best part? We're having more FUN than either of us ever thought possible.

PS - Thank you very much for you kind words about our posts.

(in reply to MidnightMaiden)
Profile   Post #: 166
RE: Safe words - 11/13/2007 11:37:24 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tinkatoy

What do you use for safe words?


First of all, I find the term “Safewords” to be a poor term that makes an implication that a word/words will keep a person safe.  The fact is no word is going to keep anyone safe unless the person that such word is directed to hears it and responds appropriately.  It is also dependent on the said person even caring to respect the given safe word.  It's the idea that “People kill People with guns" and not that the gun kills people.  People keep people safe and not a safeword.  We can use a gun to kill people.  We also can use a safeword to keep people safer.  But just because we can use the tool doesn't mean we need to or that there is not other tools that can do the job.

Secondly, I prefer the term “Trigger Words and/or Signals” instead of “Safewords”.  In essence what is generally termed as “safewords” is a means to communicate a specific condition and/or a desire for a specific action to occur.  IE.  When a person says “Red” or “No” or “Stop” it will trigger the Top to take action that could end play.  The word is nothing more that the trigger to set in motion desired actions to occur.

Therefore, I see the use of “Triggers” as nothing more than a means to communicate a specific message within the play.  The question is what message should be associated with the predetermined “Triggers”?  Also, triggers are not just words but also signals and conditions.  A trigger maybe initiated by a person to communicate a desired action to occur or a certain condition is observed/occurs that necessitates a specific action to occur.  A bottom my call out a word that indicates to the Top to stop play.  But, a severe bleeding incident during a knife play scene will also trigger action on the part of the Top to stop play and attend the wound.

Triggers are also not just to communicate stoppage in play.  But, they also can communicate a desire for more or increased intensity or some sort of change in the play.  In effect, Triggers can communicate both a negative or positive condition and it’s the skilled Top that will take note of the Triggers and react appropriately.  It is also the skilled TOP that will actually generate the positive triggers in the course of play.

The concern I have with what many consider as “safewords” is an over reliance on them.  Experience as taught me that seldom is one specific trigger consistently to be relied upon.  Over reliance on a specific trigger (positive or negative message) is sooner or later going to get a person into trouble.  Generally, speaking multiple triggers should be easily observable to a Top for them to judge the condition/state of mind of the bottom they are playing with.

A second concern with “safewords” is the reliance on the bottom to judge their own stated condition.  Would you rely on someone’s judgment that has been drinking all night that they are ok to drive home?  Reliance on a bottom in subspace to tell you that they are Ok is not much different.  Dependent on the types of play and people involved, the ability of a bottom to exercise reasonable judgment on their condition can range from adequate to absolutely disastrous.   It is my feeling that a Top must be aware of the condition of their bottom’s in the course of play and use every available means to assess if play should continue or stop.


_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to tinkatoy)
Profile   Post #: 167
RE: Safe words - 11/13/2007 12:38:10 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		Most of your post is simply diversion from the issues, so I'll do what should be done and ignore it in order to stay on point. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

I only point to how the other side doesn't work as intended in many cases. It only has to not work in one to point out my broad stoke opinion - Safe-words do NOT insure, or keep you safe.


If that were your point, we would be in absolute agreement.  Nothing and no one can guarantee to keep you safe.  But that does not mean that we do not utilize all reasonable methods to mitigate risk, and for some (many?) people that means the increased communication a safeword can provide.

But that's not really your point, because if it were no one would take issue with you (least of all me).  Your point has been (repeatedly) that a safeword transfers control from the Top to the bottom, and despite the fact that you have been provided numerous examples as to why that cannot be logically true, you continue to repeat it as if the simple repetition of it constitutes a logical or intellectual substantiation.  It does not.  And the fact that you do not directly address the issues speaks more loudly than any echo possibly can.

quote:


I'll make the converse point too. Not having Safe-word do NOT insure, or keep you safe.


The same point I made several posts ago. 

quote:


Going to play with someone for the first time - consider both sides and make your own decision. Which should be each and everyone's "one twue way"; even your's John.


People will do that regardless of what you (or I) will advise.  But when you state, categorically (as you have) that using a safeword constitutes empowerment of a bottom with control you are expressing a "one twue way".  If that's the case in your relationship, then so be it.  But it's obviously not the case in many (most?) others, as evidenced by those who have said as much for you in this and other threads.
 
Denying that they can incorporate a safeword (ie: another form of communication) in their play without transferring control *is* a "one twue way".  You're elevating your way to a position of primacy over all other ways.  That's an unmistakable fact.

quote:


There may be no difference in the end result of playing with or without a safe-word; however in the case of having one - you may believe you are safe and be in danger. That is the danger of them. But again - it matters not; safe word away!


Everything we do has danger associated with it.  Stating that there is a minute danger associated with the use of safewords isn't very compelling, even if it were true.  And the fact is that the danger you speak of is not inherent to safewords, it's inherent to ignorance.  Ignorance is far more dangerous than any particular type of play, or the use of a safeword.  Franky, I have never heard of a safeword harming anyone.  Never.  Not one.  Nada.  Zilch.  Zero.  Though I have heard of plenty of instances in which people were injured via ignorance... even if (as you have claimed) that ignorance was over the use of safewords.  Just as ignorance causes injury when engaged in breath play, knives, carvings, cuttings, etc.  None of which you are portraying as "too dangerous".

quote:


Unless you are playing with a clairvoyant you will always hear the safe-word after the fact or given by someone in charge of the scene.


Wrong on both counts.  I have heard safewords used by plenty of bottoms to convey information that prevented an injury... all without changing the control dynamic in the scene.  Let's repeat the questions you seem loathe to answer just to see how consistent you are....

  • You and beth are driving along one fine sunny California morning and about to pass an intersection.  Although you're driving, you fail to notice the car approaching from the side and obviously about to run the red light and t-bone your car.  But beth sees it clearly.  Does beth yell "STOP!!" to you as you enter the intersection, or does she keep her mouth shut because she's not the one in control and should not be giving you orders?  Or does it depend upon which side of the car is going to be hit? 
  • You've just finished a wonderful dinner that beth cooked, and sit down in your favorite chair to relax.  As you're about to light a cigar, beth notices the odor of gas and realizes that the gas starter on the fireplace has been left on.  Does she yell "STOP!!" before you light the match, or does she keep her mouth shut because she's not the one in control and should not be giving you orders?  Or does it depend upon the value of your life insurance policy? 
  • You're headed to work one morning and beth, being the loving girl that she is, walks you out to the car and kisses you through the open driver's side window.  As you shift the car into reverse and look over your shoulder to back out of the driveway, beth notices that your child is sitting behind the car playing jacks, too low for you to see through the back window.  Does she yell "STOP!!" before you run over your child, or does she keep her mouth shut because she's not the one in control and should not be giving you orders?  Or does it depend upon whether your answer is hypothetical and theoretical?

quote:


It doesn't matter how you drive, walk, or answer the phone. I speak only of the context of actually having a BDSM scene, session, play-date, or experience; and of course I only refer to actual physical in person contact.


So you're saying that saying something gives control to a bottom in a scene, but not to a bottom in a relationship?  Please, do explain to me (logically) how that works. 
 
But let's for the moment assume that you're correct (you're not) and consider the previous questions you ignored:
  • The weatherman issues a tornado warning in the middle of the scene, and the Dominant/Top stops to assess the danger.  Does that mean all weathermen are now in charge of scenes?  No, the Dominant/Top was simply presented with some additional information which he processed and assessed. 
  • The cat rubs against one of the candles in the scene, lighting itself like a torch and begins running around the room.  The Dominant/Top stops to douse the smoldering remains of fluffy.  Does that mean that all cats are now in charge of scenes?  No, the Dominant/Top was simply prsented with some additional information which he processed, assessed, and decided to act upon. 
  • Little Timmy, Jr. can be heard opening the door to the bedroom in the middle of his parent's scene and shouts "Stop!!" as he sees daddy whipping mommy.  The Dominant/Top stops to put little Timmy, Jr. back to bed and then lock his own door upon return to the bedroom.  Does that mean that all children are now in charge of scenes?  No, the Dominant/Top was simply presented with some additional information which he processed, assessed, and decided to act upon. 
  • In the middle of their scene, the bottom conveys that a problem exists, in that the chains have become bound and are pinching her skin so tightly that the excruciating (and "bad") pain is preventing her from achieving her Master's desired state of mind.  Does that mean that the submissive/bottom is in charge?  No, the Dominant/Top was simply presented with some additional information which he processed, assessed, and decided to act upon.

I'll remind you (and those reading along) that you have said:
 
quote:
It doesn't matter to me what you label either participant. In regards to power and authority you either have it or you don't. A person having to stop at the mention of the word does not have that power and/or dominance. The person who makes it stop does.

 
... giving weathermen, flaming cats, and Timmy, Jr. the power/and or dominance in scenes.  Are you sure you're comfortable with the outcome of your theory?  Or would you care to revise it?
 
quote:


I've said in the last few posts that posting on this thread is redundant. Obviously redundancy is necessary.


I have just re-read all your posts going back to November 7th.  Nowhere can I find you having said that this thread has become redundant.  Once you get started, it can become difficult to tell the difference between what has actually happened, and what you only thought of happening.
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 168
RE: Safe words - 11/13/2007 12:43:15 PM   
TheScrivener


Posts: 91
Joined: 8/11/2007
Status: offline 		I do not use them, and would prefer not to have to.

That said, I pay a great deal of attention to body language and a person's eyes.  And as a general rule of thumb, if I'm going to try something new, I make sure the person can speak clearly.

Outside of new things, I'm too fond of gags for a safeword to work.  Unless "Mmmmmppph!" is the safeword, and that's just counter-productive. 

_____________________________

"We are the facilitators of our own creative evolution."

- Bill Hicks


(in reply to chellekitty)
Profile   Post #: 169
RE: Safe words - 11/13/2007 1:45:41 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

I have just re-read all your posts going back to November 7th.  Nowhere can I find you having said that this thread has become redundant.  Once you get started, it can become difficult to tell the difference between what has actually happened, and what you only thought of happening.


Appreciate your efforts, and I can't speak to your reading skills, but you should have just asked; "That's worth the redundancy." (Post 154) And BTW - the reference you quoted was regarding MY redundancy. But at least you avoided the name calling.
quote:

Franky, I have never heard of a safeword harming anyone.  Never.  Not one.  Nada.  Zilch.  Zero. 
Well - that's it then - John never heard it so it doesn't exist? And if examples are provided would you change that position? From this thread...

An example of forgetting one causing harm:  And she's yelling and moaning and squirming pretty much like I expected, complete with begging and pleading and all that.  I hadn't a clue anything was wrong, but being new I didn't quite have full control over the flogger and it was wrapping on her... she really did want me to stop.  But me, figuring if she really needed me to stop she'd say Aardvark, I ignored it and kept on enjoying myself.  After that was over I was dutifully checking on her, seeing to aftercare and all that... at which point she told me... giggling and a lil embarassed... that she wanted to safeword, but she couldn't remember what it was! 

How about not hearing one? I tried to use a safeword once.
Unfortunately, I was screaming so loud that he could not hear me
 
Or a case were the Dominant thought he stepped over the line but still went on waiting for the 'magic word': What i didn't expect, was me struggling to breathe and him expecting me to call safety, before he'd stop. He admitted it was obvious i was in trouble, but without 'safety word' he wasn't going to stop. 
What a shock, we are no longer together.

However, I'll stay on point too. I hope you can try to be less emotional about it. And don't allow my opinion to effect your use and enjoyment of your safe-words. Meanwhile I stand behind every word I said, in the context it was said.

Why bring issues regarding listening to beth regarding driving or the weather as being relevant? If it calms you to have me say that in my driveway, or in the event of earthquake (we don't have tornadoes here, or "little Timmy's" either) that I would react to something other than my own desire fine - relish the victory and relax. I will not however make your example of preemptive safe-word use change the fact that a post injury use is just as likely. Unless of course you'll make the same concession that everyone saying it didn't stop them from being injured makes you revise your thinking?

But in the context of a BDSM relationship and all aspects involved with it; I am the only one who maintains the ability to stop it and has dominance over it. I would serve a submissive's safe-word. That's the way I see it. It shouldn't make you all emotional that I do. I'm not effected by you believing otherwise.

Sorry that you think this representation portrays a one-true way. Obviously its critical that your postion it represetned as the REAL one 'twue' way.

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 170
RE: Safe words - 11/13/2007 2:09:55 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		All of the above examples do not prove anything negative about having a signal, codeword, "trigger word", or safeword..... all they show is that the people using the safewords either used them incorrectly or that with or without a safeword they would have been injured.

Anyone who has a bottom screaming to that extent and does not stop is either inexperienced, an idiot, doesn't care how their bottom is feeling, or all of the above. It says nothing about having a safeword, but volumes about the dom that did not stop. Screaming hysterically IS an indication that the sub has transcended her limits...my only question to you at this point is if you would stop if beth got to that point, or would you think she was trying to dom you into "stopping".. because basically there is no difference to me from screaming my head off and saying "red"... both mean I am in deep shit and he should check it out.

In fact all the examples show a lack of regard for the bottom in question in my opinion, and you are right about one thing, if the dom does not give a shit about the bottom it does not matter what she says or does.

Again, many people have qualified their use of codewords or safewords... and they have nothing to do with your examples... so why the insistence that there is only one reality in the world... your own? Why not acknowledge that there are people that know how to use these words to communicate ideas and concepts to each other? All words are is a means of communication... all they are is symbols to relate mental constructs and concepts... I maybe mistaken, but I have not read anyone on this thread that said that anyone who did not use safewords is unsafe, and that the only way to be safe is with a safeword... it is you that have stated unequivocably that safewords are dangerous no matter what the situation they are used in....





< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 11/13/2007 2:11:59 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 171
RE: Safe words - 11/13/2007 2:23:59 PM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline 		One thing I have always enjoyed about ‘safe word’ threads are the varying opinions on the uses of such words. In all the wonderful opinions; never have I heard anyone say that ‘safe words are bad’ and that they should not be utilized. Instead, what I hear are the same opinions being said over and over again, but to varying degrees.

I immersed myself in the murky world of masochism and slavery without any knowledge of what I was getting myself into. All I knew was that I wanted him; and if it had to be on his terms; so be it. Safe words… I never knew what such a concept was until I started reading message boards about 5 years ago. Would it have mattered if I had known? Probably not simply because the kind of man I chose would not have paid any attention to them. That’s just the way he was; and I accepted that and him.

One thing I always state to new people when they take the time to ask me for advice is to get to know the person you are with. If you take the time to do this; get to know them inside and out; then safe words are not needed. Notice I said ‘needed’ . There is a difference between thinking that you need one and that you want one. I once told someone that if they needed a safe word to play with someone; then their instincts were screaming at them that this was wrong. On the other hand, if they just wanted one; that’s a different story. It’s important to be able to distinguish between wanting and needing though.

Personally, I don’t like safe words; for pretty much the same reason that Mercnbeth stated. It gives a false sense of security. And if a person is relying only on that small ‘false’ sense; they are placing themselves in a lot of danger. Of course, this is just my own thoughts; I know others disagree… and that’s a good thing 

edited to add

OOPPSS  This was a fast reply; not aimed at anyone in particular

< Message edited by IrishMist -- 11/13/2007 2:24:50 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 172
RE: Safe words - 11/13/2007 2:25:49 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Appreciate your efforts, and I can't speak to your reading skills, but you should have just asked; "That's worth the redundancy." (Post 154) And BTW - the reference you quoted was regarding MY redundancy. But at least you avoided the name calling.


I stand corrected, though I don't recall you saying it was regarding your redundancy. 


quote:
Franky, I have never heard of a safeword harming anyone.  Never.  Not one.  Nada.  Zilch.  Zero.


quote:


Well - that's it then - John never heard it so it doesn't exist? And if examples are provided would you change that position? From this thread...

An example of forgetting one causing harm:  And she's yelling and moaning and squirming pretty much like I expected, complete with begging and pleading and all that.  I hadn't a clue anything was wrong, but being new I didn't quite have full control over the flogger and it was wrapping on her... she really did want me to stop.  But me, figuring if she really needed me to stop she'd say Aardvark, I ignored it and kept on enjoying myself.  After that was over I was dutifully checking on her, seeing to aftercare and all that... at which point she told me... giggling and a lil embarassed... that she wanted to safeword, but she couldn't remember what it was! 

 
So, let's see what caused the harm.  The safeword?  Nope, it wasn't even used.  How about ignorance?  Yep, too new to realize what he was doing.  And his powers of observation failed him (your savior?).  And too new and ignorant to realize that "Stop, you're wrapping the flogger" constitutes a safeword as well (it conveys information).  And too ignorant to realize that no one portrays a safeword as the *only* means by which Tops obtain information... just one of the ways. 
 
Safeword causing an injury?  Baloney.
 
quote:
How about not hearing one? I tried to use a safeword once.
Unfortunately, I was screaming so loud that he could not hear me

 
Yeah, that makes sense.  If only she had whispered it more quietly, perhaps he would have heard it.
 
quote:

 
Or a case were the Dominant thought he stepped over the line but still went on waiting for the 'magic word': What i didn't expect, was me struggling to breathe and him expecting me to call safety, before he'd stop. He admitted it was obvious i was in trouble, but without 'safety word' he wasn't going to stop. 
What a shock, we are no longer together.

 
Yeah, there's a brilliant fellow... it's obvious to him that she's in trouble but he continues to whack away?  Ignorance strikes again... not a safeword. 

quote:


However, I'll stay on point too. I hope you can try to be less emotional about it. And don't allow my opinion to effect your use and enjoyment of your safe-words. Meanwhile I stand behind every word I said, in the context it was said.


You're right, amusement is an emotion. :)

quote:


Why bring issues regarding listening to beth regarding driving or the weather as being relevant?


Because the issue, as you have defined it, is the retention of control when a bottom/slave/submissive stops an activity.  Who cares if that activity is a flogging or driving?  The issue is, who is in control.  And you have clearly stated that

quote:


It doesn't matter to me what you label either participant. In regards to power and authority you either have it or you don't. A person having to stop at the mention of the word does not have that power and/or dominance. The person who makes it stop does.


And if beth were ever to tell you to "stop", she'd obviously (by your definition) be the one in control. 

quote:


If it calms you to have me say that in my driveway, or in the event of earthquake (we don't have tornadoes here, or "little Timmy's" either) that I would react to something other than my own desire fine - relish the victory and relax. 


So then this canard about safewords imparting control upon bottoms can be put to rest.  Saying "stop" because of intruders, tornadoes, earthquakes, the neighbor's little Timmy, Jr., flaming cats, falling light fixtures, or even the approach of physical limitations, is nothing more than the reaction to something other than your own desire.  I shall relish the victory with a cigar on the deck this evening and you can quit using it for preening and strutting.

quote:


I will not however make your example of preemptive safe-word use change the fact that a post injury use is just as likely.


Yes, it is just as likely.  But what about the injuries that it prevents?  Not using safewords cannot make the same claim (ie: not using them never prevents an injury).

quote:


Unless of course you'll make the same concession that everyone saying it didn't stop them from being injured makes you revise your thinking?


I challenge you to point out where I ever said or implied that using safewords was any guarantee of safety.  In fact, I have stated that they are not on numerous occasions.  No one and nothing can guarantee safety, but safewords can mitigate risk.  You may argue how much they reduce risk, but given that they do prevent some injuries it stands to reason that they can be one piece of the puzzle that reduces risk.

quote:


But in the context of a BDSM relationship and all aspects involved with it; I am the only one who maintains the ability to stop it and has dominance over it.  I would serve a submissive's safe-word. That's the way I see it. It shouldn't make you all emotional that I do. I'm not effected by you believing otherwise.


I'm not emotional in the least, beyond being amused at your illogical contortions.  Beth says "stop" in the driveway and you're able to maintain dominance, but she says "stop" in the dungeon and you're serving her?  I think I have fewer questions about safewords than I do about you.  What is it about the atmosphere in a dungeon that robs you of your ability to retain your dominance?  Or is that a euphemism for an inability to maintain an erection if you feel your dominance is challenged?  That's a serious question, by the way. 

quote:


Sorry that you think this representation portrays a one-true way. Obviously its critical that your postion it represetned as the REAL one 'twue' way.


Let's review class.  You state that any submissive using a safeword is actually in control.  I'm stating that may be the case in your relationship, but not all relationships (ie: many people utilize safewords as sources of information without any effect upon the control in their scene or relationship).  Your statement is an absolute (ie: the "one twue way") and my statement is relative to the individual relationship.  What color is the sky in your world?
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 173
RE: Safe words - 11/13/2007 2:27:52 PM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline
quote:

One thing I have always enjoyed about ‘safe word’ threads are the varying opinions on the uses of such words. In all the wonderful opinions; never have I heard anyone say that ‘safe words are bad’ and that they should not be utilized. Instead, what I hear are the same opinions being said over and over again, but to varying degrees.

Agreed.
I'm thinking i need a safe word to stop safe word threads

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to IrishMist)
Profile   Post #: 174
RE: Safe words - 11/13/2007 2:29:05 PM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

One thing I have always enjoyed about ‘safe word’ threads are the varying opinions on the uses of such words. In all the wonderful opinions; never have I heard anyone say that ‘safe words are bad’ and that they should not be utilized. Instead, what I hear are the same opinions being said over and over again, but to varying degrees.

Agreed.
I'm thinking i need a safe word to stop safe word threads

LMAO do you think there is one?

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If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.


(in reply to missturbation)
Profile   Post #: 175
RE: Safe words - 11/13/2007 2:34:25 PM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline 		Nope, not one.
I was wondering if clicking my heels together 3 times and saying 'theres no place like home' might take me away from them though.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to IrishMist)
Profile   Post #: 176
RE: Safe words - 11/13/2007 2:35:52 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
All of the above examples do not prove anything negative about having a signal, codeword, "trigger word", or safeword..... all they show is that the people using the safewords either used them incorrectly or that with or without a safeword they would have been injured.
Exactly! I guess the issue is then not that safe-words are unsafe but are unsafe when used "incorrectly". I guess in your mind they are used correctly when they work and are used incorrectly when they don't. Just like a parachute, except in this case you're relying on someone else packing it for you and that a parachute versus your underwear come out when you pull the cord. 

Your position then is safe-words are great when used correctly and dangerous when they are used incorrectly. The bottom line then is; don't rely on them, and don't think you are safe using them. That's been my position from the first post.
quote:

Anyone who has a bottom screaming to that extent and does not stop is either inexperienced, an idiot, doesn't care how their bottom is feeling, or all of the above. It says nothing about having a safeword, but volumes about the dom that did not stop.
I guess the person is an "idiot" then in your mind. I don't assign those names to someone who didn't hear. It happened - I say it can happen and does versus calling the occurrence an example of idiocy. I can live with that difference in our interpretation of that person's experience.

quote:

Screaming hysterically IS an indication that the sub has transcended her limits...my only question to you at this point is if you would stop if beth got to that point, or would you think she was trying to dom you into "stopping".. because basically there is no difference to me from screaming my head off and saying "red"... both mean I am in deep shit and he should check it out.
I would represent that my ability to discern a "hysterical" scream from beth is contingent upon never having heard one. I won't attempt to try and provide proof of a negative. However, I'm confident, and more importantly beth is confident that the condition you describe will not take place. Further, I'd have the opinion that it would be much more likely to occur WITH a safe-word.

quote:

In fact all the examples show a lack of regard for the bottom in question in my opinion, and you are right about one thing, if the dom does not give a shit about the bottom it does not matter what she says or does.
You'll have to take that up with the people who gave the examples. I wouldn't be so callous and assuming that their dom "didn't give a shit about" them.

quote:

Again, many people have qualified their use of codewords or safewords... and they have nothing to do with your examples... so why the insistence that there is only one reality in the world... your own?
Apparently you applied another's position to me. I've ended many of my comments with the sentiment that if they work for you "use and enjoy" your safe-word. I didn't try to convert anyone, although at least one person indicated that they were converted. I hope it works out for them as much as I hope that the people who use safe-words don't have similar or worse experiences as those related.
quote:

Why not acknowledge that there are people that know how to use these words to communicate ideas and concepts to each other?
Why is there a need for me to acknowledge anything about anyone else's method of communication? I didn't think anyone required validation, from me of all people.
quote:

All words are is a means of communication... all they are is symbols to relate mental constructs and concepts... I maybe mistaken, but I have not read anyone on this thread that said that anyone who did not use safe-words is unsafe, and that the only way to be safe is with a safeword...
Your correct - inclusive of me.

quote:

 it is you that have stated unequivocably that safewords are dangerous no matter what the situation they are used in....
Yes it is my belief that they are dangerous for all the reasons, examples, and potential situations that I gave. What's your problem with that? It's not like I created any BDSM law that you, or anyone else, has to follow.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 177
RE: Safe words - 11/13/2007 2:38:37 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I do not know if they are needed are not, except we do enjoy scenes where interrogation is a part of them... "no" "don't" and "stop" would have absolutely no meaning in these scenes... so for these scenes it is pragmatic in my opinion to have a safeword... and if I utter it in any other play we have it is as good as saying "Would you please stop, I may throw up if you do not". The one time I used a safeword was when we first started playing with each other and I dropped so fast into subspace that I thought I was going to toss my cookies. I am very thankful for being able to only have to say "red" because I truly did not want to have to go into detail about how my stomach felt.... Did I need the safeword? No, I could have thrown up and no one would have been harmed by my puke, but nonetheless, it was nice that he stopped immediately and elected to take care of my sick tummy before I barfed all over his carpet

Need and want is so subjective... my needs and your needs are not one and the same.... you may have needs that I do not have and vice versa... I am willing to concede that I do not know your needs if you will concede that you do not know mine.. deal?

The way we play now, I lose complete track of what is going on and I am so into just allowing the sensations and being in the moment when he plays with me that the last thing on my mind is calling colors. I do not have to worry about if he will stop or not if I suddenly called red because something happened that was harming me... I KNOW he would stop. I know that when we play with pain he is completely concentrating on my well being and that he would not knowingly harm me. It is him that desires we keep the safeword in place because the idea that I could be in trouble and use it to communicate that to him is enough for him to order that it stays in place. It does not make him abdicate his responsibility for my welfare, because his deepest concern at those times IS my welfare. I cannot even fathom Sinergy not paying attention to my well being and harming me and being dismissive with a throw away excuse such as "well bitch, you should have said red"... he just is not that sort of Dom.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to IrishMist)
Profile   Post #: 178
RE: Safe words - 11/13/2007 2:51:27 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		John,
I appreciating you needing your on-line victory and am pleased to have provided you the ability to claim you have one. 

But actually the real power in our driveway isn't beth - its the remote to the gate which is built into the car. In the driveway - its the ultimate power of dominance.
quote:

Your statement is an absolute (ie: the "one twue way") and my statement is relative to the individual relationship.
LOL!
Rover's rule of "one twue way"? Absolutely priceless!

Based on your profile, I'm the only one of us who can speak from the perspective of being involved an "individual relationship". 
 
quote:

Let's review class. 
 I thought we were just taking different positions, I didn't know your were speaking to your "class" or concerned about having a prior lesson invalidated. Where do you and your minions meet? Perhaps we can do this in person.

Or feel free to visit here where, since you asked, the sky and ocean are both blue and the temperature is in the low 80's with a pleasant ocean breeze. Feel free to stop by anytime!

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 11/13/2007 3:15:35 PM >

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 179
RE: Safe words - 11/13/2007 3:04:20 PM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline
quote:

Or feel free to visit here where, since you asked, the sky and ocean are both blue and the temperature is in the low 80's with a pleasant ocean breeze. Feel free to stop my anytime!

Please could i come too, it sounds so nice. I agree with you on safe words but i'll debate it if it means i can come visit


_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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