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RE: Validate me - 11/12/2007 12:43:57 PM

sexyred1

Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

I have a question. I know we are talking about a womans validation. How does that apply to men. We dont have the need to be told that we are handsome.

Oh No? Try dating a male model; I did and he needed more mirror time than I did and needed constant reassurance that he was not: losing his looks, getting crows feet, laugh lines, receding hair line, getting a 4 pack instead of a 6 pack (abs, not beer), etc.

I also think some men need reassurance more about their sexual prowess, their ability in work, to be a good father, etc. than about whether they are handsome or not.

(in reply to Dnomyar)

Post #: 61

RE: Validate me - 11/12/2007 12:47:56 PM

ctrlaltdelete

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Joined: 11/6/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3
Children that grow up without nurturing don't know how to give it to themselves. Having someone else "validate" them opens the door for hope and the possibility that they are worthwhile.

Assuming that the person that does begin the validation process through external validation is actually pure of motive, you are right. But look at the reality - how begin that external validation process in the spirit of selflessly motivated empowerment - instead of with the goal of creating a readily perpetuated codependence cycle?

(in reply to laurell3)

Post #: 62

RE: Validate me - 11/12/2007 12:49:59 PM

ctrlaltdelete

Posts: 284
Joined: 11/6/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3
For most men I know sex is validation.

Let's validate that theory - your place or mine?

(in reply to laurell3)

Post #: 63

RE: Validate me - 11/12/2007 12:51:18 PM

phedre81

Posts: 56
Joined: 10/29/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

Validation of beliefs is totally different than a SOURCE of belief. We like it when someone agrees with us...in either a negative or positive way, even if we don't want to admit it.

Master Fire

To me, this is the heart of the matter--that validation of beliefs is totally different than a SOURCE of beliefs.

My partner makes it clear that she thinks I'm beautiful. And she gets a bit pissy when I argue with her on that (and I've certainly paid for THAT at times). She finds it rude/disrespectful of me to "insult her taste" that way.

She validates me feeling good about myself.

If she was the only source of all things that make me feel good about myself, there would be a problem.

I think that the concept that one is beautiful simply b/c their dom/me finds them beautiful is a dangerous one.

It seems like a good idea to me, to appreciate and accept that our partners find us attractive, and not go around doubting them on that when they've made it clear that they do.

For ME, that doesn't equate to finding MYSELF attractive, and that, I've found, is really only something that can come from within me.

Lots of rambling, there, sorry, but I guess what I'm saying is I can see finding it disrespectful to doubt whether my Top finds me attractive, but I don't see how its disrespectful to have my own opinion of my body, and that is what needs to change, and can change over time, in PART through a loving relationship.

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)

Post #: 64

RE: Validate me - 11/12/2007 12:54:21 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
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~ Fast Reply ~

If I could take the posts from IrishMist, Celeste43 and batshalome and combine them all, that would be my answer.

After years and years worth of being emotionally and mentally beaten down, I indeed felt I was worthless and not capable of being loved. Funny, because my physical looks were never part of that equation, other than when I gained tons of weight and hated even how I looked.

Mr. Wonderful came into my life at my heaviest, and at my weakest. He has never told me I am beautiful. He has said "You are very attractive" and that's about as far as physical compliments went. He helped me see my body for what it was, and to accept it, and to take care of it. He did not point out flaws. He pointed my face in my own direction and helped me see reality. Yes, physically my body was way out of shape, yes, it was still enjoyable. Yes, he found what I had to give from the inside far more important than the shell around it. And that's what I needed most validation on.

Coming from a state of worthlessness, there is very little to jumpstart oneself. My Master would tell me of my capabilities, but he would also lead me to reach them, so I could see and understand them for myself. I wrote in that other thread (I think that's where I wrote it) that he continued to raise the bar for me, and every time I reached it, I felt stronger, more confident, and better about myself. And every time I reached it, he would express his pride in me. He would validate my own validation. That's where much of our bond was formed.

Now he looks at me and remarks on my courage and strength. Yes, it makes me feel good. There was a time when I didn't know what it felt like to feel proud. There was a time when I didn't know what courage was, other than to try to see it in others. I look up to my Master. He is, in my very humble opinion, a brilliant man. He is also well educated, has his own very established career, and is an impressive citizen (again, my humble opinion). To feel worthless, yet having someone like that think well of me (at a time when I felt I could only attract "losers" with more problems than I had), made me feel like maybe, just maybe there was something to his opinion - - something worth looking into for myself.

So yes, I believe validation can indeed be a very healthy thing, when used as a tool and not a crutch. Remember when you were a kid and trying to climb over a fence? But you needed a boost from your friend because you were not yet tall enough to do it on your own? Well, Master gave me that boost, and I have since grown enough to climb over without his help. If, three years later, I were still looking to him for that same boost, then I would not have gotten far. But now I just burst through those walls :)

(in reply to laurell3)

Post #: 65

RE: Validate me - 11/12/2007 12:55:37 PM

laurell3

Posts: 6577
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ctrlaltdelete

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3
Children that grow up without nurturing don't know how to give it to themselves. Having someone else "validate" them opens the door for hope and the possibility that they are worthwhile.

Assuming that the person that does begin the validation process through external validation is actually pure of motive, you are right. But look at the reality - how begin that external validation process in the spirit of selflessly motivated empowerment - instead of with the goal of creating a readily perpetuated codependence cycle?

You'll note I said preferrably it's a licensed therapist. My point is that this hogwash dogma of you do it yourself and you're doing it wrong if you listen to others is a) self validation of a different flavor ie finger pointing and b) not totally true.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to ctrlaltdelete)

Post #: 66

RE: Validate me - 11/12/2007 12:58:14 PM

laurell3

Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ctrlaltdelete

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3
For most men I know sex is validation.

Let's validate that theory - your place or mine?

I don't know you.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to ctrlaltdelete)

Post #: 67

RE: Validate me - 11/12/2007 12:58:27 PM

ctrlaltdelete

Posts: 284
Joined: 11/6/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3
You'll note I said preferrably it's a licensed therapist. My point is that this hogwash dogma of you do it yourself and you're doing it wrong if you listen to others is a) self validation of a different flavor ie finger pointing and b) not totally true.

Agreed - I was going with the mainstream assumption in this thread that a partner (of whatever sorts) was the empowering party - not a mental health/counseling professional.

(in reply to laurell3)

Post #: 68

RE: Validate me - 11/12/2007 1:05:42 PM

laurell3

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Joined: 5/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ctrlaltdelete

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3
You'll note I said preferrably it's a licensed therapist. My point is that this hogwash dogma of you do it yourself and you're doing it wrong if you listen to others is a) self validation of a different flavor ie finger pointing and b) not totally true.

Agreed - I was going with the mainstream assumption in this thread that a partner (of whatever sorts) was the empowering party - not a mental health/counseling professional.

Well I think we all seek validation from our partner in some sense. It's part of companionship, friendship, sex, love, etc. I do believe it is possible for nontherapists to help nuture other people. We do it here and in every other facet of life all the time. However, serious work with someone with a dysfunctional sense of self would be best left to professionals. Generally, the professionals will include family, couple/marriage, friend or whatever counseling in addition to address these type of issues with the significant people in that person's life.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to ctrlaltdelete)

Post #: 69

RE: Validate me - 11/12/2007 1:12:05 PM

Leonardo

Posts: 113
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Psychologically, we all have a tendency to need validation of some sort. It is a part of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. Although we feel a need to belong, we also feel a need to be recognized. If validation is not important, then why do people dress the way they do, get their hair cut and styled the way they do, follow the trends the way they do?

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 70

RE: Validate me - 11/12/2007 1:29:53 PM

chellekitty

Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
Whilst reading the 'how do you change your perception' thread i couldn't help but notice that a few posters were of the opinion that if your Dom / Domme says you are beautiful (example), then you should just accept it as the truth. Another poster (a Dom) says that his is the only opinion that counts.

Ugh. This notion is NOT healthy in my opinion. Of course we all want to hear about partners tell us these things, but to base our belief of such on outward approval is a disaster waiting to happen. Why? Because, at some point, our partners WILL be disappointed in us and, statistically, it's likely that the relationship will end at some point. When this happens and we've based our self perception and esteem on these outward things, our basis will crumble, which will crumble our new found positive beliefs.

If you want to be a stronger slave or Master or whatever, work on your own self development. It's not up to your partner to do this for you. It's not up to your relationship to make you feel this way. These things are reinforcements of your beliefs...NOT the source.

Master Fire

sometimes a Dominant in my life will see a thought pattern that i have that is false....and what follows is how it is presented to me and how i deal with it, it is copied and pasted from the other thread, that i believe, resulted in misst starting this thread...

quote:

my need to obey my Dominant/Master/Owner/Person i choose to give authority in my life is so strong and overwhelming that to argue with them and to call them a liar by denying what they say is true, that it destroys me...don't get me wrong...i will try to tell them why it's not true...but it is with the intent of them telling me why it is true..."i want to believe you, but my past expeirence has told me it is not true and this is why....please tell me you are not lying to me and why"....and if their imediate reaction is always "because i said so" then they are not the person for me...there are times when it is appropriate, probably because i asked at an inappropriate time...but with the way my mind works, i do need it explained...

_____________________________

One thing I know: the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who will have sought and found how to serve. ~Albert Schweitzer

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)

Post #: 71

RE: Validate me - 11/12/2007 1:33:42 PM

anubicdarque

Posts: 14
Joined: 10/5/2007
From: Adelaide
Status: offline

Humans are an incredibly facinating species, and yes, from my observation, they all do need validation of others. Even total strangers!
There was mention of "I must be beautiful because Master says so" and the after effects if Master is no longer in your life. Your forgetting one very important part of the human mind. Its very very trainable.
Lets start with what everyone knows.
"Im ugly cos all the kids at school say I am"
Now I am sure we have had simular (I know I have). Now this very quickly turns to:
"I'm Ugly"
Notice the lack of external validation required.   its simple (if flawed) self analysis.
so we move to the retraining of the human mind (Not an easy task nor one for the easy squemish)
"Im beautiful because Master says so"
Over time    with effort from Master      it turns to
"Im Beautiful"
again   no longer externaly validatied, but simple (and corrected) self analysis.

The human mind is so very fragile and yet so incredibly strong, Who woulda thunk it?

I guess the main idea behind this long and rambling post is : Humanity as a species and humans as indiviuals use external validation to create their own self validation, and this can be used to the benifit of the humans, through carefull and intence aplication of love and trust that is created in a relationship such as M/s or D/s.
"Are you beaufiul?" He asked
"If Master says she is" she replied, her eyes respectfully at his feet
...................................................
6 Months later.
...................................................
"Are you beaufiful?" He asked
"Yes Master I am" she replied, her eyes twinkling as she looked up at him

< Message edited by anubicdarque -- 11/12/2007 1:39:45 PM >

(in reply to Leonardo)

Post #: 72

RE: Validate me - 11/12/2007 2:52:34 PM

Squeakers

Posts: 489
Joined: 10/3/2006
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Once I asked isn't my belly button ugly and he agreed.

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 73

RE: Validate me - 11/12/2007 3:18:39 PM

kyraofMists

Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
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Misst,

I think there is a difference between validating and convincing. I will ask for validation from him at certain times. It is a request to support my belief that I am loved or whatever I am seeking validation on. I do not ask him to convince me that I am loved, beautiful, etc. I need to convince myself of that but I can ask for his support to validate that belief and help make it stronger.

He also expects me to know how to validate myself. He can't always be there to give the validation that I want and sometimes he is just insensitive and doesn't give it. In the end it is up to me to make sure that my need for validation gets met. That does not translate into brow beating him into providing it either. I can ask for it; if he says no, I either get it from someone else or find the validation within myself.

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 74

RE: Validate me - 11/12/2007 4:41:21 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

I'll just add that I'm ok with my partner saying I'm crazy and delusional when I go on and on and on and on and ON about how awesome he is (mostly because I feel exactly the same way when he does it). But I'm NOT ok with them rejecting my own feelings outright saying "No I'm not" or even worse disaparaging themselves.

It really shuts down my entire judgement as valid to them and suggests I'm not only LYING to them but that I choose a partner who sucks but for some reason need to lie to them consistently.

Relying on one other persons perspective to shape the whole of your reality is only for masters who want slaves who are incapable of making their own judgements and choices.

I don't need my partner to BELIEVE or AGREE with my judgements, I just need him to accept them for what they are graciously. Over time, they plant the seeds I need.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 75

RE: Validate me - 11/12/2007 4:48:32 PM

scottjk

Posts: 335
Joined: 4/18/2005
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Sorry gang, I just can't read beyond two pages of replies. :)

I don't try to be an expert, but I do try to consider my thoughts carefully before I speak them, however, that doesn't mean you shouldn't think of me as totally crocked! :)

The way I see it, validation by itself is a function of a healthy and social mind. We're human beings, men and women and we all need the validation of others to feel secure in our particular tribe. It's a survival trait, I think. If we feel accepted, we are then aware of our place in our tribe. If we don't feel accepted, it's an early sign to ourselves that our place in our tribe is threatened and we need to take steps to correct that.

So, if I ramble a bit, I'll ask "What is the process of validation?" If there are two types of validation, they might be outward validation, that of others close to us and relative strangers, and inward validation, that of ourselves and our personal identity. I would imagine that we create our own sense of validation based on how we view our own actions and appearance, and then we test that against the validation of others. "I see myself as this inwardly, what do you think?"

That being said, I might suppose that seeking only one or the other would be unhealthy, and that seeking both would be healthy. If we only value our inward validation, I would suspect that we would become self-centered. If we only value our outward validation, then we would become entirely dependant on others for our identity. (Borderline Personality Disorder?)

I think it's a balancing act really, both types of validation are needed for a healthy sense of identity and a healthy sense of security within the tribe and the relationship. I suppose giving validation is important too, come to think of it. If some one accepts my validation of them, it provides me with a sense of worth, and in return validates myself. :)

Ugh! This is getting complicated! I can keep it all in my head, but, putting it down in text is a challange! Hmmm, there might be a book in this somewhere. ;)

_____________________________

Thou art fertile ground and I will plant a garden in thee.

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 76

RE: Validate me - 11/12/2007 4:52:34 PM

ELUSIVE1

Posts: 536
Joined: 9/11/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

If you depend on a person (such as your partner) to validate you, what happens when that person is no longer in your life? Hopefully relationships last a long time, but some are fleeting, for whatever reasons. Does your self-esteem crumble when that person is no longer around to validate you? I think it's better to stand on your own and validate yourself, be strong so you always have you, don't rely on another person whispering in your ear.

so glad to see you bring up 'self esteem ' because first read it seemed like this was all about looks...to which, my standard answer is always 'pretty is as pretty does'...I agree with the OP, there is no one that is going to make me comfortable in my skin, but me..-

_____________________________

"Words have no power to impress the mind without the exquisite horror of their reality"

*Poe
http://alt.com/blog/ELUSIVE1NC
http://users.adultspace.com/ELUSIVE1NC/

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 77

RE: Validate me - 11/12/2007 5:04:36 PM

batshalom

Posts: 1990
Joined: 9/17/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Remember when you were a kid and trying to climb over a fence? But you needed a boost from your friend because you were not yet tall enough to do it on your own? Well, Master gave me that boost, and I have since grown enough to climb over without his help. If, three years later, I were still looking to him for that same boost, then I would not have gotten far. But now I just burst through those walls :)

~choked up~ Yes, girlie. That is it exactly.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 78

RE: Validate me - 11/12/2007 5:20:28 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

KoM had a thread about strong dominantion versus weak. That got me to thinking that in alot of ways it isn't so much dominant characteristics but personal characteristics that can apply to anyone, that cause me to see a dominant as strong or weak. Alot of the same characteristics apply to wether or not I find a submissive/slave interesting.

I just love it when a seed I plant begins to grow.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to LaTigresse)

Post #: 79

RE: Validate me - 11/12/2007 5:29:16 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

He also expects me to know how to validate myself. He can't always be there to give the validation that I want and sometimes he is just insensitive and doesn't give it. In the end it is up to me to make sure that my need for validation gets met. That does not translate into brow beating him into providing it either. I can ask for it; if he says no, I either get it from someone else or find the validation within myself.

Knight's Kyra

she's such alove little sprout..... I remember when she was but seed in the ground....

To the OP...

Yeah... we Validate each other in our relationships... However... Self-Validation is critical! without the ability to self-validate... all other validations are just surface stuff and will blow away with a strong breeze.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 80

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