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The Concept of Fate? - 8/8/2005 8:02:01 AM

mistoferin

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Saturday night was our local munch. As my birthday was Sunday, the group decided to use this month's get together as a celebration of my birthday also. We had a wonderful evening together, lots of laughter. We closed down the restaurant and wandered out to the parking lot where we stood under the stars on a beautiful night and laughed and chatted for another hour or two. They decorated my vehicle with Happy Birthday all over it and gave me tag team birthday spankings.

When it was time to go I headed out with another couple directly behind me. Looking out my rear view mirror through all of the writing I started thinking that maybe it might be best to travel back roads, as a police officer may see all the decoration and stop me thinking I most likely have been drinking. ( I wasn't but just didn't really want the hassle) At the last second I made a decision to take a road that goes along the freeway. My friends behind me continued on the way I would have been going.

A half mile past where I had turned off, there was a man in the middle of the road walking a motorcycle. My friends very nearly hit him. He was wearing black clothes, a black bike and no lights. My friends pulled over to see if he needed help and realized he was very drunk. As they sat there talking to the man a car coming from the other direction came through and hit him at about 50 miles an hour. The driver was a young girl of about 20 who was extremely traumatized by the whole event. The man on the motorcycle will live, although most likely with a very serious limp as they said his leg was fairly well mangled.

No my question is...was it common sense reasoning that made me make that turn?....or was it fate? The road I turned onto was one that I was unfamiliar with and had no real idea where it would come out, the only thing I knew is that it travelled along side the freeway. I am certain that had I gone straight I would have most likely been the one to hit that man. My truck had been parked under a tree that had fairly covered me with sap and had an impact on my visibility. I don't think I would have seen him in time.

This is just one example and I have had several instances like this over the course of my life. I have heard others talk of events like this too. So do you believe in fate?

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

Post #: 1

RE: The Concept of Fate? - 8/8/2005 8:21:59 AM

EmeraldSlave2

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My view on the fate/free will/destiny issue is....complicated at best, made even more so by actually researching the philosophical theories that exist.

The danger of saying that fate exists is that people will no longer take responsiblity for their own actions, or simply be lazy. If fate exists, how? why? when? How do we know? (sorry that last one is more epistemology)

I can say that I stopped believing in "coincidences" at a very young age, and understand that people use that word to say "something very unlikely has occurred and we don't know why so we'll just act like it's normal."

Whether you believe in luck, fate, pure will, compromised will, reincarnation, destiny or whatever...I think we simply have to do what we feel and know as right for who we are and know who we will become.

To get a bit Matrix-y "You've already made the choice, now you have to understand why"

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 2

RE: The Concept of Fate? - 8/8/2005 8:23:25 AM

EmeraldSlave2

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Just as an added thought in light of your signature are we then victims of fate? How can we be volunteers if it is "fated" no matter what we want?

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 3

RE: The Concept of Fate? - 8/8/2005 8:45:01 AM

Gauge

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Joined: 6/17/2005
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To quote Bill Murray in Ghostbusters, "Call it fate, call it luck, call it Karma, I believe things happen for a reason."

The concept of fate meaning that we have no control over what we do is something that I don't necessarily agree with. I don't think we are puppets on a string playing out some cosmic preordained skit. There are incidences when it would seem that we are either blessed or cursed by what would appear to be fate. If one has some concept of a higher power, God if you will, then there are instances that we can point to and say that someone was watching over us, but fate? That I am not so sure about.

I do believe that things happen to us for a reason. Maybe it is to help us to understand something so that we, in turn, can help someone else who is going or has gone through something similar.

Interesting topic. I am glad that the guy will live and glad that you weren't involved. But I feel sorry for the young lady that hit the man and for the guy having to endure all the pain and trauma.

_____________________________

"For there is no folly of the beast of the earth which is not infinitely outdone by the madness of men." Herman Melville - Moby Dick

I'm wearing my chicken suit and humming La Marseillaise.

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 4

RE: The Concept of Fate? - 8/8/2005 8:52:50 AM

Lordandmaster

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How could it have been "fate" if the man got hit anyway? Does it really matter to HIM whether you were the one to hit him or someone else? You're looking at this from your point of view, and fate doesn't work that way. Fate affects everyone.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

No my question is...was it common sense reasoning that made me make that turn?....or was it fate? The road I turned onto was one that I was unfamiliar with and had no real idea where it would come out, the only thing I knew is that it travelled along side the freeway. I am certain that had I gone straight I would have most likely been the one to hit that man.

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 5

RE: The Concept of Fate? - 8/8/2005 8:56:16 AM

darkinshadows

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From: UK
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I do not believe in fate, but I do believe in being able to hear. It might be you are just open to listening.

In buddism, they believe not in the past or the future, but in the now. And being open to what is happening at this precise moment. It is focusing on all what is happening around you and being able to hear. If you can hear, you will be able to centre yourself on what is happening in the now. So, unlike fate, its just about being open to the realisty that surrounds you.

Peace and Love

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 6

RE: The Concept of Fate? - 8/8/2005 9:25:23 AM

mistoferin

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quote:

How can we be volunteers if it is "fated" no matter what we want?

Well, I don't think that I necessarily subscribe to the notion that fate governs our every moment. To be honest, I am not sure how to describe these types of events. I don't think that that the concept of fate necessarily negates our own personal responsibility to attempt to make good sound decisions for ourselves and make choices that we think are right for us as individuals.

quote:

I am glad that the guy will live and glad that you weren't involved. But I feel sorry for the young lady that hit the man and for the guy having to endure all the pain and trauma.

Yes, I am thankful that I was not involved and that he will indeed pull through. I too am sorry for the young girl's involvement, I can not imagine how it might feel to hit someone but I am sure it would not be a pleasant or easily forgotten experience.

quote:

How could it have been "fate" if the man got hit anyway? Does it really matter to HIM whether you were the one to hit him or someone else? You're looking at this from your point of view, and fate doesn't work that way. Fate affects everyone.

Well, I am not saying that it was fate necessarily, but fate could still have a role. Maybe the man was fated to be hit, a wake up call if you will to teach a lesson of the dangers of drinking and driving, but not that he was necessarily fated to be killed. The girl who hit him was driving a small car, like a Cavalier. I, on the other hand, have an SUV. If it were I who had ultimately struck the man, I am sure his chances for survival would have been greatly lessened. Not saying this IS the reason....just another "might be". Guess I will never truly know.

quote:

I do not believe in fate, but I do believe in being able to hear. It might be you are just open to listening.

Another interesting concept....thank you...food for thought.

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 8/8/2005 9:26:01 AM >

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

Post #: 7

RE: The Concept of Fate? - 8/8/2005 9:36:39 AM

Lordandmaster

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So, sometimes fate intervenes and sometimes it doesn't?

How do you know which is fate and which isn't?

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Well, I don't think that I necessarily subscribe to the notion that fate governs our every moment. To be honest, I am not sure how to describe these types of events. I don't think that that the concept of fate necessarily negates our own personal responsibility to attempt to make good sound decisions for ourselves and make choices that we think are right for us as individuals.

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 8

RE: The Concept of Fate? - 8/8/2005 9:38:22 AM

mistoferin

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quote:

How do you know which is fate and which isn't?

Well I don't. That is why I started the thread....to get others thoughts on the concept.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 9

RE: The Concept of Fate? - 8/8/2005 9:54:44 AM

Isolde

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Joined: 4/18/2005
From: Hamilton, Ontario
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I believe that there's a reason for everything that happens to us, good and bad. I believe that there are some things that will happen no matter what, and other things that will change according to choices made by the people involved. I don't believe that there is any way we can determine which is which, except perhaps in hindsight. I don't believe that "fate" is limited to big, earthshaking events only, that it can have a hand in small, seemingly inconsequential events as well.

I'm not a skeptic but I'm not a firm believer in the concept either. I'm not sure what that makes me.

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 10

RE: The Concept of Fate? - 8/8/2005 1:29:56 PM

Lordandmaster

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Either everything is fated or nothing is fated. It isn't possible for some things to be fated and others not to be. Fate is fate. (Personally, I believe that all things are fated, and our perception of free will is what philosophers call "supervenient," but it's a complicated question.)

I think people really really really wanna believe in fate (in the same way that they really really really wanna believe in God), because the alternative is too scary, but they realize that it's hard to believe that ALL things are fated, so they come to compromise-theories that assuage their fears and don't seem utterly unrealistic.

(in reply to Isolde)

Post #: 11

RE: The Concept of Fate? - 8/8/2005 2:37:48 PM

happypervert

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From: Scranton, PA
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I don't believe in fate. I do believe shit happens randomly and that people like to "explain" it as being caused by mysterious forces. Having such fuzzy explanations makes it so much more comforting, I suppose.

_____________________________

"Get a bicycle. You will not regret it if you live." . . . Mark Twain

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 12

RE: The Concept of Fate? - 8/8/2005 2:46:02 PM

junecleaver

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quote:

It isn't possible for some things to be fated and others not to be.

Why? What if fate was a lose agenda and you got to make all the little decisions inbetween?

Like...the drunk motorcycle man was fated to be hit. But it was up to the OP or the 20-something-girl to inadvertedly decide who would be the one to hit him.

I'm not sure what to think of fate and destiny and purpose. But I'm happy for you that you didn't have to experience something like that. <3

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 13

RE: The Concept of Fate? - 8/8/2005 3:20:15 PM

CalliopePurple

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I like junecleaver's thoughts. Fate, to me, is just a big plan of things that are supposed to happen to you so you can learn from them. It doesn't control every aspect of our lives - we aren't just puppets, after all.

The big things are what we have no control over. The little things, we do.

_____________________________

Kimi ni aitakute dare yori mo aitakute
hajimete kimi ni atta hoshizora no shita de.
Kimi ni tsutaetai todokanai omoi demo
boku no kokoro wa mada kimi o sagashiteiru.

Gackt - Kimi ni Aitakute

(in reply to junecleaver)

Post #: 14

RE: The Concept of Fate? - 8/8/2005 3:43:15 PM

DesertRat

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quote:

ORIGINAL: happypervert

I don't believe in fate. I do believe shit happens randomly and that people like to "explain" it as being caused by mysterious forces. Having such fuzzy explanations makes it so much more comforting, I suppose.

I agree, happypervert. It seems to me that most people, at least in the Judeo/Christian/Muslim world need to live in a world that has a human face. The mysterious forces that make things happen, of course, aren't human, but they somehow fit into the theology of the believers. The idea of a cold, mechanical universe in which things just happen is just too scary. But that is what I believe. It's just a big, wonderful mechanism and we superimpose our own interpretations of 'what it all means' on events that really have no intrinsic meaning.

But I'm not knocking it. I don't claim to have the straight skinny on how things work, so to each his own.

Bob

(in reply to happypervert)

Post #: 15

RE: The Concept of Fate? - 8/8/2005 4:13:07 PM

FangsNfeet

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quote:

No my question is...was it common sense reasoning that made me make that turn?....or was it fate? The road I turned onto was one that I was unfamiliar with and had no real idea where it would come out, the only thing I knew is that it travelled along side the freeway. I am certain that had I gone straight I would have most likely been the one to hit that man. My truck had been parked under a tree that had fairly covered me with sap and had an impact on my visibility. I don't think I would have seen him in time.

This is just one example and I have had several instances like this over the course of my life. I have heard others talk of events like this too. So do you believe in fate?

Do you choose Door #1 , #2, #3 or just go back the way you came in?

Here is a little story I got to tell....

My lil brother attended a community college where he meets a girl. Having similar interest in the discussion of medeval reinactment, she ask my brother to join a group called amtgard. So my brother joins and drags me and my sister to play. There, my sister meets a guy. No to much later, my sis and the guy are married. If my brother had never went to college, would my sis and this guy be married today?

All of us get caught up with being:

1. at the right place at the right time

2. at the right place at the wrong time

3. at the wrong place at the right time

4. at the wrong place at the wrong time

5. And where the fuck? What the fuck?

Now let tell more to the story...

In amtgard I make a friend who has Yahoo IM. After living in Houston with no Internet and financial difficulty, I move down to Tyler for a New job and was able to vist my dad more frequently. My dad has a computer and internet. From that computer my friend from amtgard introduces me to Collarme.com where littletxsubby and I first meet. So if my lil bro hadn't have went to college, would I have still ended up finding my pet and be moving to the Dallas area?

Isn't it interesting how one turn causes a domino effect that can only be traced backwards?

I don't know much about fate or the big question "why was I here when" and don't contimplate much on the What Ifs, Would of Should of Could of. The whole idea is that something is going to happen no matter where you are. Look at the 9/11 stories about how many ppl where less than seconds away from going into the twin towers when the got a phone call or meet somebody on the side walk. Some decided to make a quick turn around for a cup of coffe and a news paper. One person had a car problem because of a lazy mechanic. Did the lazy mechanic save the guys life in a dominoe cause and effect action?

In any case, I just prepare myself to look ahead in pushing dominoes infront of me.

Last part of the story....

So I'm living in Tyler and join the Local Amtgard Chapter. With my idea, we decided, to participate and aid in the local Relay For Life. At the charity, I meet a guy who decides to join amtgard. He started talking about going to college and hopefully having a job that pays better than minimum wage. So I ask, "are you any good with simple algebra and memorization?" He says "Hell Yeah" and told me about his 4.0 average and straight A's that he made in College Algebra I and II courses. So I told him to attend a two month class being a pharmacy tech. It was the Tyler Paper that had the Pharmacy Tech ad for classes. Now he is a pharmacy tech making over $12/hr. Not bad for a college student who needs a 3.5 GPA to keep a scholarship. He says that he would have never thought about being a pharmacy tech if it hadn't been for my suggestion. So if my brother had never went to that college, would my friend be a pharmacy tech today?

Things that make you go hmmmmm

_____________________________

I'm Godzilla and you're Japan

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 16

RE: The Concept of Fate? - 8/8/2005 4:14:34 PM

MsIncognito

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

So, sometimes fate intervenes and sometimes it doesn't?

How do you know which is fate and which isn't?

It's starting to sound like all this God business, isn't it? The rule with God is that when the outcome is good God was responsible. When the outcome is bad humans and free will are responsible. Maybe the "goodness" rule applies to fate as well.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 17

RE: The Concept of Fate? - 8/8/2005 4:17:53 PM

dominmd

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To oversimplify things a little: Everything that happens is supposed to happen.

To make complicated: Every action you take affects the future. If you decide to not do something what are the consequences? The answer is you have no idea what the consequences are because you did not take action.

An Example: 3 years ago I got hired into my current job. Pay sucks, but the boss is nice. I met a nice girl who got me talking and starting to come out of my shell that I had built around myself. Two years into the job my uncle dies and my emotions finally reach the surface. I start taking more initiative and moving forward in life. Last October hits and I take a different position in the company when my supervisor announces the position will soon be open. Right on the spot I ask for the job. Not 2 weeks later I meet a very wonderful woman whom I am dying to ask out now. In January I joined a local group and my shell is disolving even more quickly.

The Lesson: If I had not taken the job= no meeting that girl that began bringing me out of the shell. IF my uncle had not died= life outlook may not have changed. IF I did not take the driving job= would never meet that wonderful woman whom I am dying to ask out. IF I had not joined the local group= Shell would still be in place.

So as you can see, my decisions from 3 years ago affected where I am and what I am doing now. Life is full of ifs, there is no doubt about that. By now I just focus on the moment and listen more to those voices in my head when they speak.

(in reply to DesertRat)

Post #: 18

RE: The Concept of Fate? - 8/8/2005 4:19:21 PM

Lordandmaster

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I agree that it's a lot more comforting, self-deceptively so, to cling to beliefs like "Things happen for a reason." That saying never forces you to disclose exactly how things happen, nor precisely the reasons for which things supposedly happen. You give up your right to wonder whether things are really being run very well in exchange for the comforting notion that there is some superhuman plan and that all will be well in the end.

I don't agree, however, that "Shit happens randomly" necessarily follows from rejecting "Things happen for a reason." In fact it would be very difficult to justify, by any scientific argument, that shit happens randomly. When you drop a stone from a height of ten feet, what happens next isn't random. So you mean that some shit happens randomly, and other shit happens according to immutable cosmic rules? Well, which is the shit that happens randomly and which is the shit that obeys the laws of the universe? How do you tell the difference?

I don't think shit happens randomly, but I also don't think there is an intelligent power, divine or otherwise, that makes all these things happen. I guess that means I reject BOTH "Things happen for a reason" AND "Shit happens randomly."

Lam

quote:

ORIGINAL: happypervert

I don't believe in fate. I do believe shit happens randomly and that people like to "explain" it as being caused by mysterious forces. Having such fuzzy explanations makes it so much more comforting, I suppose.

< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 8/8/2005 4:20:09 PM >

(in reply to happypervert)

Post #: 19

RE: The Concept of Fate? - 8/8/2005 4:22:01 PM

Lordandmaster

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Joined: 6/22/2004
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Couldn't have said it better myself.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsIncognito

It's starting to sound like all this God business, isn't it? The rule with God is that when the outcome is good God was responsible. When the outcome is bad humans and free will are responsible. Maybe the "goodness" rule applies to fate as well.

(in reply to MsIncognito)

Post #: 20

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