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RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/19/2005 8:44:06 AM

TallDarkAndWitty

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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
Thanks pink ... I stand corrected!!!

Actually, you were pretty much right the first time. Lawrence v. Texas pretty much makes adultery laws unconstitutional.

Taggard

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RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/19/2005 8:48:37 AM

darkinshadows

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quote:

i know we live in different countries, so i cannot speak too what dark-angel posted. In the USA, most crimes are violatioms of state law, and thus, what is legal in Vermont may be illegal in Kentucky.

Here, the purchaser of goods in good faith who has paid a reasonable price is not held liable for the loss to the victim of theft in any way; this is true in virtually every state. If it can be shown that the purchaser knew the goods were stolen, etc., a different result would arise. And such things as one's home are treated differently than say, one's expensive watch.

To my knowledge, there is no state in which failure to report ANY crime is itself a crime. Criminal, administrative and/or civil consequences are enforcable against say, an ER doctor who fails to report a clear cut case of child abuse. Again, this varies state-by-state and not every state uses criminal penalties.

I am sorry if it sounded like I was saying that not reporting a crime is an equal crime to the act. What I ment was that if you know someone commited an offense and that person is being 'searched for' - and you know who did it, (you was there, saw the crime, witness etc) you can be held in contempt or as an accessory to the fact - at least in the UK - if the prosecutors decide. For example - if you was in the car during a hit and run etc and you leave the scene.

If say - you buy a pocket watch for example and buy it knowing it is stolen - you can be charged as an accessory. If you buy the watch unknowingly you wouldnt be liable for the loss to the victim, but the courts have the right to take the said item and return it to the owner - so saying you didnt know wouldnt mean you get to keep the item - if that makes sense.

As you rightly say - it does differ from country to country and in the US - state to state.

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RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/19/2005 9:04:53 AM

darkinshadows

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quote:

Adultery isn't a crime ... this example makes no point.

I was merely using your analagy from further up the thread to Gentle Lady - and giving examples of the law as I have been advised. Of course, this varies from (in your case) state to state.
Personally, I don't believe that adultery belongs with the law - but I do believe, as I said before, If one is mature enough to commit adultery then one should be mature enough to accept that the action you take may cause others harm and upset. Claiming that its 'none of ones business' because of either a seperation from some of the facts or because its between a 'man and his wife' is silly. Of course it is your business, because you decided to get involved. It isnt anyone elses business what you or he do, however - unless yu decide to pull other people into the mix.

My best friend had an affair with my other best friend. They wanted to meet at my house when it came to the point of her leaving her husband, so they could discuss some stuff. They wanted me to babysit her children.
Nope - not me. When I heard, I told her that she was to either take the children with her or tell her husband, or get someone else to do it.
Why? - Not because of the affair. They fell in love - the marriage wasnt working - so thats their choice. I would support her all the way. But because how on earth could she ever trust me 100% ever again, if she knew I would lie/with hold truths from anyone - for anything?

In any life, let alone wiitwd, trust is something that can't be ignored and thrown away. And anyone who ignores their responsibilty of trust, needs to think really carefully about that, above anything else.

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RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/19/2005 9:09:44 AM

Lordandmaster

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We're all really impressed that you're doing the damsel-in-distress thing, but Fidelity was a guy--and he's no longer on the site.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingmaster45

Bring your flak this way...

I agree with her.

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RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/19/2005 9:11:31 AM

darkinshadows

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quote:

Even if there were, who cares? Most of the people on this board break a law every time they indulge in bondage, S&M, "unnatural" sex, or even unmarried sex in some states.)

I think this is the crux.

Your completely right - people break the law all the time. And adultary isnt a law stance, its not even a moral one. What people do behind their own doors is their business. In the case of an affair - that means all three have responsibility to each other.

What it comes down to is responsibility and trust.
You can't ignore either.

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RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/19/2005 9:13:30 AM

Angrylibrarian

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this is always a very popular subject.

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RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/19/2005 9:14:30 AM

Lordandmaster

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That was my quote, pink.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkpleasures

quote:

quote:

Lately it's been overrun by boors. I prefer it the old way, and I'm going to try to bring back the good days. So people who call all religions irrational bullshit are going to get some flak. Have fun with it.

Actually, i cannot figure out whose quote this is.

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RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/19/2005 9:37:08 AM

kyakitten

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel
In the case of an affair - that means all three have responsibility to each other.

I agree with you 100%. So the question becomes, what is the outsider's responsibility to each party, and especially to the one not involved in the affair?

It's a tricky question beyond the obvious don't murder them, steal from them (what isn't owned can't be stolen), boil their kids' bunny, etc.....Does the outsider have a responsibility not to indirectly harm them?

Yes and no. We can't help but commit harm with our actions. Example: I may get offered a job that Joe Smith really really wanted. It may be a plum job for him whereas it's a stepping stone for me. He may lose self-confidence and even enter a deep depression from the loss. Let's say that even though I don't know Joe, I know about his desire for the job and resultant emotional state through a mutual friend, and I also know that he is the second choice. Does any of this give me the moral responsibility to altruistically refuse the job? Of course not.

Thus I knowingly cause him hurt through my action of taking the job. Hell, I've even unknowingly caused him pain by applying for it, and interviewing well, and so on. Any action we take is likely to hurt someone, and if we do nothing, that's likely to hurt someone too.

I'm forced to conclude that my responsibility is to do what's best for me [within legal and moral guidelines] while endeavoring to maximizing benefit and minimize hurt for others, based on the information I have at hand. And since trust is a function of consistency, if I can be consistent to that goal, I'll be trustworthy.

It may sound self-serving, but what is really self-serving is the delusion that you can categorically avoid hurting other people.

< Message edited by kyakitten -- 10/5/2005 9:14:33 PM >

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RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/19/2005 10:01:14 AM

darkinshadows

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Exactly - you can't avoid effecting someone else.
So - if people are mature enough and old enough to act - they should accept that their action causes a result.
To say they take no blame, or that their action doesn't mean anything is such an alien concept to me.

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RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/19/2005 11:12:29 AM

kyakitten

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Angel -
Accepting a result is not the same as accepting responsibility for the result. I accept that Joe Smith is hurt by my taking the job, but I don't accept the blame for his depression. If, God forbid, your friends left their kids under a tree and walked away to talk and a branch fell and hurt a kid, that wouldn't make it your responsibility because you refused to babysit them in your home, even though their being there was the direct outcome of your action.

Like you in the situation you described, any person outside a relationship can only weigh the likely benefits and costs to himself, consider the interests of others, and decide accordingly. The responsibility is to oneself.

< Message edited by kyakitten -- 10/5/2005 9:13:59 PM >

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RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/19/2005 11:50:30 AM

pinkpleasures

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quote:

That was my quote, pink.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkpleasures

quote:

quote:

Lately it's been overrun by boors. I prefer it the old way, and I'm going to try to bring back the good days. So people who call all religions irrational bullshit are going to get some flak. Have fun with it.

Actually, i cannot figure out whose quote this is.

O Lam..i should have recognized it as Yours.

pinkpleasures (a certified Lam-admirer)

< Message edited by pinkpleasures -- 8/20/2005 5:29:14 AM >

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RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/19/2005 12:07:28 PM

pinkpleasures

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quote:

Again...I don't buy either, though I think your analogy is the best one I have seen so far.

Sex = driving a car.
Cheating = getting drunk
Husband = drunk driver
Other woman = bartender

You think the bartender (other woman) has some culpability in the drunk driving (cheating). I don't. I think adults have to take responsibility for their own actions.

Taggard

Sir, many/most states have passed legislation, holding a bar owner and possibly a bartender liable for serving alcohol to someone who is legally drunk and subsequently causes harm or is harmed himself. Whether this has ever been criminalized i don't know; i do know a liquor license may be jeopradised. i'm sure You could find all You cared to know on the Mothers Against Drunk Drivers website.

Back to the topic: here's my two cents' worth. The husband is usually despicable, lying to his wife about cheating and lying to the other woman about his intentions to divorce his wife. Both women are living in a state of denial and this situation is generally ended by one of the women, not the husband.

That does not absolve the other woman. Setting aside poly and open marriage people, the other woman is f**king a married man; she is complicit in hiding that from his wife; she is wasting herself on a man about whom the one thing she knows for sure is that he cheats and lies.

When there are minor children in the mix, the other woman's conduct sinks even lower. Maybe he would cheat anyway; maybe he would get divorced after his wife is fed up anyway; but she does not have to facilitate the deterioration of a couple's marriage. Difficult as it is (and married men are masterful manipulators out of necessity) she has an obligation to stop the denial and tell the husband to leave her alone.

pinkpleasures

< Message edited by pinkpleasures -- 8/19/2005 12:09:28 PM >

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RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/19/2005 12:51:55 PM

darkinshadows

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyakitten

Angel -
Accepting a result is not the same as accepting responsibility for the result. I accept that Joe Smith is hurt by my taking the job, but I don't accept the blame for his depression. If, God forbid, your friends left their kids under a tree and walked away to talk and a branch fell and hurt a kid, that wouldn't make it your responsibility because you refused to babysit them in your home, even though their being there was the direct outcome of your action.

Like you in the situation you described, any person outside a relationship can only weigh the likely benefits and costs to himself, consider the interests of others, and decide accordingly. The responsibility is to oneself.

Liana

I tend to think that there is a differnece between knowing what might happen, and the obvious that will happen. But nonetheless, there is still a responsibility. Of course ultimately one is responsible for oneself only, but to deny effects is to blinker one from reality.

As for the scenario - personally I dont place blame, it isnt my place to do such. But I do believe in the living of the moment. Doesnt mean that the future is redundant but should not people still always be aware that each action equals a consequence?

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RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/19/2005 5:21:23 PM

TallDarkAndWitty

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkpleasures
Sir, many/most states have passed legislation, holding a bar owner and possibly a bartender liable for serving alcohol to someone who is legally drunk and subsequently causes harm or is harmed himself.

And I think 90% of the laws of any land are horseshite.

I obey the ones I believe in, and quietly disobey the ones I do not.

When they finally sue a gun maker for some asshat using a gun to kill someone, that will too become law of the land, but it certainly won't be right.

The nanny state will make everything better for everyone, no one is responsible for anything...

Taggard

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RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/20/2005 5:24:12 AM

pinkpleasures

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quote:

And I think 90% of the laws of any land are horseshite.

I obey the ones I believe in, and quietly disobey the ones I do not.

When they finally sue a gun maker for some asshat using a gun to kill someone, that will too become law of the land, but it certainly won't be right.

The nanny state will make everything better for everyone, no one is responsible for anything...

Taggard

Holy s**t --i agree with something Taggart said. The tobacco litigation was based on a claim for damages that was blantantly unconstitutional and the judges looked the other way...they should have all been hauled up for judicial misconduct in my opinion. Now some states are looking to repeat the trick to sue gun manufacturers. i guess this is some new form of taxation. States won't need to struggle to balance their budgets; they'll just sue some portion of the market economy with money and a bad public image and pay for things like education and prisions with the proceeds of the suits.

i think it is un-democratic; private property should not be commandered to support states' funding needs.

pinkpleasures

< Message edited by pinkpleasures -- 8/20/2005 5:26:10 AM >

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RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/20/2005 7:06:33 AM

kry

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkpleasures

i made suggestions to thelight for the sake of the children, who might be kidnapped. i hope i emphazied enough his friend needs to see an attorney.

pinkpleasures

thelight - if your friend is also in the State of New York try contacting the Bar Association in your state. http://www.nysba.org/ They can direct you on how to find a competant family law attorney with knowledge of Hauge Convention procedure and international custody laws. There are other options than staying in a bad marriage.

CYA.

< Message edited by ModeratorTen -- 8/20/2005 10:26:05 AM >

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RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/20/2005 9:45:02 PM

pinkpleasures

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quote:

Gee, do you think there is a chance that if he is being honest with me ... he might just be an honest person, and may not be lying to anyone ... his wife included?

caitlyn

caitlyn, in my 50's i can only tell you that no married man who was honest with me has made a pass at me. Your instincts are right on the money.

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RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/20/2005 9:50:30 PM

pinkpleasures

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quote:

Two final thoughts:

First, I hope the moderators don't see any of these posts as flames, because I don't feel flamed and really didn't mean to flame anyone. I think we were just communicating openly about a difficult issue.

Second, I have now completely changed my postion!!!!!

From now on, anyone that asks me out is going to have to prove beyond any doubt that they are not married or involved in a relationship where they are not supposed to date other people. Anyone have any ideas on how I can make that happen?

I promise to check every car ignition for screw drivers.

I will never again consider a little kissing as anything short of complete carnal knowledge. caitlyn

caitlyn, lately i have been asking men pursuing me to call me in the evening at a particular time. Married men cannot keep such promises because their wives are home. Seems to weed out at least some married men. Beware of giving out your home phone number if it's listed; get a cell instead.

pinkpleasures

< Message edited by pinkpleasures -- 8/21/2005 4:41:13 AM >

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RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/21/2005 6:43:44 PM

luvdragonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyakitten

Angel -
Accepting a result is not the same as accepting responsibility for the result. I accept that Joe Smith is hurt by my taking the job, but I don't accept the blame for his depression. If, God forbid, your friends left their kids under a tree and walked away to talk and a branch fell and hurt a kid, that wouldn't make it your responsibility because you refused to babysit them in your home, even though their being there was the direct outcome of your action.

Like you in the situation you described, any person outside a relationship can only weigh the likely benefits and costs to himself, consider the interests of others, and decide accordingly. The responsibility is to oneself.

Liana

I see where the similarities lie, but the difference between competitively seeking a job and participating in an affair is that the employer is not 'cheating' on Joe Smith by giving you the job. Unless things have radically changed overnight, seeing someone behind your spouse's back is not the same as looking for the most qualified applicant. Or is it?

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RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/21/2005 6:55:24 PM

luvdragonx

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Ok here's a question (or 3) for those of you who feel the Other Woman is in a morally neutral position:

If your friend has an affair with your spouse, would you still consider that friend exempt or neutral?

If your spouse has a co-worker or friend who has an affair with your spouse, is that person still free from responsibility in the actions?

If one of your family members has an affair with your spouse, is that person morally exempt or neutral?

I'm curious to find out how many people would adopt the same stance on culpability when the Other Woman/Man is someone they know.

And before anyone chimes in with 'No friend of mine would do that' or 'Anyone who would do that isn't a real friend' - not the point of the questions. I wholeheartedly agree that the choice to cheat lies in the hands of the spouse, but once that choice is made, the cheater can't cheat alone. Someone else may knowingly agree to assist in said cheating. Yet that person is supposed to be faultless/blameless/not involved/unaccountable/neutral?

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