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RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/12/2005 1:37:05 PM   
Fidelity


Posts: 192
Joined: 8/1/2005
Status: offline 		OK I take your point,it was a bit off to use words like pondscum.

I simply feel revulsion to behavior I see as damaging to others. I was expressing a gut feeling over this. I'm not in the mood to get into semantic debates, or start with a judging contest.

Do you have anything of sustance to contribute to the topic,or are you just seeking an argumentative ego contest now? If it is the former,I will gladly listen to your opinion.

If it is simply to focus yet another a whine on ME, I'm done. It's a waste of time.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/12/2005 1:42:32 PM   
pinkpleasures


Posts: 1114
Status: offline
Fidelty; i admire You and offered You my friendship. i have no desire to "whine" on You. i simply joked around where perhaps i should not have, and so apologised. i have never treated You with anything but respect, in spite of the "religious" remarks You and others have made. i guess i can understand them, because i'm Catholic, and cognitive dissonance is our game of choice.

i still offer You my respect and friendship...let's run off and make a new thread. Meet me in my email. <giggles>

pinkpleasures

_____________________________



(in reply to Fidelity)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/12/2005 1:44:23 PM   
Fidelity


Posts: 192
Joined: 8/1/2005
Status: offline 		I agree pink,it is time to lighten up and smooth down the ruffled feathers.

Is the right and wrong so damned important, that we have to drive ourselves nuts over it all? I'd rather LEARN something!

(in reply to pinkpleasures)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/12/2005 1:53:17 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Let me disclose my view of dishonesty, since my opinions about dishonesty have come up in at least three different threads this past week, and people have been assuming a lot of false things about me (along with a lot of unproductive ad hominem jabber).

Dishonesty is the only thing that will always kill a relationship. I am never dishonest with anyone who has earned my honesty, and I will not continue a relationship with anyone who has been dishonest with me. (I actually stated this on some thread or other, but it was completely misunderstood.) And there is another reason why dishonesty is bad: not only will it rob you of your relationships, but it will prevent you from leading a fulfilling life. I've learned that by experience, because I used to think it was easier just to tell the truth as necessary, and now I know that you cannot be the person you were born to be unless you have the courage to be honest about it.

There are different ways of talking about dishonesty, and some are more productive than others. Some threads on here have analyzed why people are dishonest, what is wrong with being dishonest, and so on. Those have been very interesting and useful threads. Other threads on here have started with some kind of situation involving human beings, sometimes real, sometimes imagined, and then concluded by lambasting the person who was dishonest. That kind of discussion is not very interesting or useful. The question isn't whether people think dishonesty is OK; the question is WHY dishonesty is bad. It may make you feel good to sling mud at other people, or weep and wail about how the rest of the world does not live by your standards, but it's not very edifying.

Another thing that I dislike is when people do not know how to state their opinion and disagree with civility. At that point, what people are saying is irrelevant. People have no reason to be insulting to each other even if they are RIGHT. When I see someone insulting another person on here, even if I'm not the target of those insults, I step in, because that kind of thing destroys the fabric of the forums, and I am not ready to see this place turned to shit because a few uncivilized people do not know how to behave.

Fidelity, I really don't think you have been insulting, so I'm not offended by anything you've said, but you have to admit that you have used very strong language. "Irrational bullshit." "Pondscum." "Pure idiocy." You never directed any of those phrases at a specific person, and that's why I don't think you have been insulting, but if you are prepared to use that kind of language, it is disingenuous of you to complain afterwards about the thread's level of discourse. Instead of complaining so much, and re-affirming your right to say whatever unpopular thing you wish to say, you would accomplish much more by RAISING the level of discourse. You do that by starting with your own writing.

In all of these matters--dishonesty, disagreement, insults, and so on--people tend to forget that they have their own gardens to tend before they can presume to criticize others. Really, don't we all have too many problems with our OWN relationships to be sticking our noses into other people's business? Same thing with calling religions "irrational bullshit" (and listen, I'm an atheist) and then complaining that people don't know how to discuss anything intelligently. I am more interested in people who want to improve themselves than in people who want to improve everyone else.

Edited to add: Oh, I forgot to mention my pet definition of dishonesty. Dishonesty is deliberately leading someone to believe something that you know is untrue. So conveniently not saying something when you know that the other person is laboring under a misapprehension is just as bad as telling a lie. People often excuse their own dishonesty by figuring out some way not to lie directly, and then pretending that this exempts them from telling the truth.

< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 8/12/2005 2:04:58 PM >

(in reply to Fidelity)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/12/2005 2:09:17 PM   
luvdragonx


Posts: 388
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Veav

So anyway, cheating is bad. I think we all agree on that; some of us lean towards "whatever, cheat if you want to, it's not my life you're ruining", some of us towards "stay the fuck out of my life you algae growth", but it's pretty much negative across the board.

Do you think the root cause for cheating these days is personal - c.f. people are schmucks and unwilling to respect the vows they took and the partners they chose?

Or sociological, given the conformist leanings of American culture towards "if you don't get married and do the picket fence thing, you haven't succeeded"? Do people try to initially satisfy an expectation that doesn't truly meet their needs, and as they grow, they start branching out to try and find out what their needs are?


I think it's a combination of the two. I can't remember who said it on another thread, but honesty is typically not rewarded.
People choose their own selfish needs over the needs of another, it happens all the time. Take kids for example. I've seen them do the most inconsiderate things and when asked about it, their answer is 'Cuz I wanted to.' -they can't see past what they want. Being an adult should mean that you will consider what your wants will cost you and others. We all know this is not always the case.

How many of us exceed the speed limit, but slow down when we see a cop? How many of us have taken an 'extra' break at work from time to time? How many of have snuck that extra cookie after mom has gone to bed? In all of these, there is dishonesty, tempered by the rationale that 'No one will know' or 'No one is looking', or 'I'm not hurting anyone'. No, it's not the same as cheating on your partner and potentially causing emotional injury to the families, but the premise is the same.

It would be good if everyone was honest all the time and dealt with the consequences of their honesty, but that's just TOO HARD for some. It's too difficult to pony up 300+ bucks every time we speed, so we get radar detectors. It's too difficult to quit your taxing, unsatisfying job because it pays the bills, so you find a way to make your work time more bearable. It's too difficult to give up the comfortable life you've built with your partner so you find your own outlet. None of these things are 'right' in the honesty/dishonesty battle but you can see the shades of gray from sneaking cookies, to fudging breaks at work, to having extramarital affairs.

I also agree that many people get married/involved for ALL the wrong reasons. Many get married because they think they are 'supposed to'. They don't think of the long term consequences of that kind of commitment. It could be immaturity, family/peer pressure. Or it could be the fact that divorce is an acceptable option if it doesn't work out. I've talked to several women, for example, who were talking about the possibility of divorce before they were even married!! That makes no sense to me. But marriage in the last couple of decades has become more of a convenience than committment, imo. Spouses are like cars - get the best one you can afford, and if you wreck it, get another one.

I just think people will seek out those who will make them feel the best about their life decisions, should they choose to share them.

_____________________________

Never Without Love

(in reply to Veav)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/12/2005 2:38:37 PM   
Fidelity


Posts: 192
Joined: 8/1/2005
Status: offline 		I have already condsidered my wording,and I agree.

It was a bit of a shock to have this woman contact me as she did- and after the initial pleasing letter,it was a let down to hear she was a cheater.

It's a bit like being offered a tasty treat,only to find out it is full of worms when you take a bite out of it. And from reading profiles,this sort of nasty bait and switch happens to the ladies MUCH more often. So I can see why they got so pissed off over it. These clowns are really screwing things up for us single guys who CAN offer an actual commitment.

I think that in the long run,honesty is just about serving your own best interests-in the happiest and most sustainable manner.

After all,wouldn't you rather be rejected for who you ARE? Rather than accepted for who you are not? And of course,the reverse is true.

Sometimes it hurts to tell the truth,knowing you may not get what you desire. So the question I always have to ask is this one........................

Is it worth the price I will have to pay?

And believe me,when you tell a lie-there is *always* a price to pay.

It may not happen today,tomorow,or even next year.

But you WILL pay the piper eventually.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/12/2005 3:19:08 PM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline 		Oh good, we're back to an actual discussion again.


quote:

ORIGINAL: ChereeAmoor

I cheated and regretted it - because everything has a price, and sometimes, other people pay it, and that is just not the right way to live, for me, anyway.

Yup, life is funny like that. It has its own special way of spanking us when we do really dumb things. It may not happen right away, but sooner or later it will catch up with us. Call it Karma if you like... or just cause and effect. That's not throwing stones, its just an observation of fact.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Veav

Do you think the root cause for cheating these days is personal - c.f. people are schmucks and unwilling to respect the vows they took and the partners they chose?

Or sociological, given the conformist leanings of American culture towards "if you don't get married and do the picket fence thing, you haven't succeeded"? Do people try to initially satisfy an expectation that doesn't truly meet their needs, and as they grow, they start branching out to try and find out what their needs are?

Hmmm... this one can be complicated to answer. Like Luvdragonx said, its a bit of both. One of the things Individual Psychology deals with extensively is child psychology. It observes that children must be taught how to socialize, how to get along with others, who to respect, and what to value. On their own children are greedy, selfish and demanding, they want their way and have little regard for others. We've all seen this in an undisciplined child (perhaps in a resteraunt) that simply will not behave and acts in a manner that is rude and disrespectful of others... they are being selfish. Think how often we call a selfish adult... childish, or else immature. So some of this can be attributed to individuals who have never really matured.

But, there is also something sociological happening, a shift in our values (and by our I mean western culture as a whole). Up until recently in historical terms (ie the last 50 years) the survival of the individual was not guaranteed. The further back in time you go the more dangerous life was. Food for thought, in the middle ages (say 1050-1300) virtually every woman, except among the nobility, was statistically likely to be raped at least once in her life. One in 3 would die in child birth. Statistically from 1050 to 1250 every village and small town in Europe was pillaged an average of 3 times! Think for a moment how tough those people must have been physically and emotionally to survive that, and not only survive but go on to forge nations. Now consider what kinds of values emerged in this crucible. People valued loyalty (its good to know who you can count on in a fight), honesty, integrity, dependability; all these values have something in common, they all help the individual discern who will help them survive and who is likely to be a threat to their survival. These are Values of Survival.

Now consider the modern, industrialized world of the last 50 years to present. Few women die in childbirth. Only 1 in 3 women is likely to be raped in her lifetime (based on a US statistics of 2003). And you just don't hear about that much pillaging of small towns anymore (Sturgis not withstanding... hehe). How many times do each of us face real danger or a threat to our lives in a year? Once? Twice? Not at all? How often do we feel a need to carefully weigh the consequences of our actions, how often do we feel there even will be serious consequences? We live in a very safe society, comparatively speaking, and it is reshaping our values. Where once our values were based on survival, now we concern ourselves with what entertains us the most, what brings us the most pleasure. We are shifting from Survival Values to Pleasure Values. Think about why it is we pay atheletes millions of dollars so we can watch them play a game, for our entertainment. And yet, a teacher is lucky to be paid $50,000 annually for the indispensible task of educating our children, our future. Americans will spend an estimated $15 billion on pornography this year (enough to completely pay for the construction of the International Space Station), yet shelters for victims of abuse are underfunded. When knowing your spouse will be faithful and loyal affects your chances of survival, fidelity matters. When your spouse becomes valued as someone fun to be with, marriage vows lose their meaning and so does the spouse when they cease to provide you with the pleasure you seek. If ethics gets in the way of our desires... they become a mere inconvience to be discarded. Welcome to a pleasure based society, you too are disposable.

They say its a brave new world we are building. I believe them, we're going to have to be pretty brave to live in it I think.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fidelity

I think that in the long run,honesty is just about serving your own best interests-in the happiest and most sustainable manner.

An excellent example of enlightened self interest. That understanding that knowing what is good for you means more than considering just what is good right now, it means considering what will be good for you in the future.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to Fidelity)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/12/2005 3:19:44 PM   
junkyard


Posts: 107
Joined: 3/13/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
There are different ways of talking about dishonesty, and some are more productive than others...Another thing that I dislike is when people do not know how to state their opinion and disagree with civility.


Most if not every point you made in the post I am now responding to were stated by me - albeit in different words and not all in one place - in the "cake" thread. I knew we shared the same views on it, I just wanted to hear you say it rather than have you nibble at my ankles continually concerning the minutia of my statements.

I wonder if you noticed how many times I stated that I knew that you would tend to agree with me on the bigger subject if you could let the tiny bits drop. Of course you couldn't let the smaller bits pass because you wanted to play "king of the mountain" rather than have a discussion. So there you were: peck, peck, peck - like a chicken at the feed mound.

More below...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
Fidelity, I really don't think you have been insulting, so I'm not offended by anything you've said, but you have to admit that you have used very strong language. "Irrational bullshit." "Pondscum." "Pure idiocy."


Why is the word "sanctimonious" so glaringly ommitted from your list? In the other thread you seemed to think that some opionions were valid (your own) while others were not (e.g. my statements). Personally, I think the whole thing hinges on verbal "display" for you. You want to come here and be thee sole voice of reason and knowledge.

I would suggest that the reason you come to loggerheads with certain speakers is that you cannot (or at least not easily) accept anyone as your equal. When you speak I think the tendency must be for others to defer to your unique display of verbal fireworks. When you meet someone that will not so defer to your verbal display, you switch to the verbal equivalent of sparring or playing "king of the mountain." You want to use words to defend your turf.

I know what you are doing because I do it a lot too. The difference is that I am a lot more aware of it than I think you are. In many instances I was just goading you because I found what you wanted to do tiresome. And frankly, you were not contributing to the conversation in an interesting way. You wanted to degrade the discussion, as did some others, with pointless digressions. You want digressions, you get them. I can't think of one yet where I did not show the digression was not a waste of time. I know you think you scored some major point on the whole "contract" issue - but you didn't achieve what you think you did because you never properly understood or acknowledged the tiny distinction you seemed to think was so important.

In sum, whereas I am sure you find yourself stunningly eloquent; I find you sadly somewhat churlish. Go figure...

In my opinion, you would do well to seek out the work of linguist Deborah Tannen and do a bit of reading, if you have not done something like it already. I think you will have plenty of "ah hah!" moments with such material.

Below is the only interesting thing you have stated so far since I began taking notice of your postings. But I knew this already, it taught me nothing. I only find it interesting because no one has stated anything precisely like it in these more recent threads.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
Edited to add: Oh, I forgot to mention my pet definition of dishonesty. Dishonesty is deliberately leading someone to believe something that you know is untrue. So conveniently not saying something when you know that the other person is laboring under a misapprehension is just as bad as telling a lie. People often excuse their own dishonesty by figuring out some way not to lie directly, and then pretending that this exempts them from telling the truth.


(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/12/2005 3:36:15 PM   
pinkpleasures


Posts: 1114
Status: offline


Lam..i do not agree that dishonesty is the ONLY thing that will always kill a relationship...but it surely does have that effect. i have said before..the liar is showing me (1) something is more important than the relationship i am pouring my life's blood into and (2) the bulls**t and drama train is rounding the bend. i jump before the train is pulling up at my door.

Fidelty..i used pondscum! i used it to describe men who cheated on me! No one else used it! Damnation..it's MINE! ROFLMAO.

Padriag; once again i wish i were as compassionate and as well-spoken as You. When i was young..and someone said i'll be there for you...it was never a lie..we staked our lives on such promises. i still believe in the Girlfriend Code. Rule no One is "attack one of us, You have attacked us all." Funny how as i became middle class women told me they never even heard of this...poor women live it.

pinkpleasures

< Message edited by pinkpleasures -- 8/12/2005 7:48:57 PM >

_____________________________



(in reply to junkyard)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/12/2005 3:43:47 PM   
Guest
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fidelity

Dublin? LAM? I'll express myself as I see fit.




You will express yourself within the TOS of CM.
Thank You.

(in reply to Fidelity)
  Post #: 90
RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/12/2005 3:46:29 PM   
Guest
 This is another warning being issued.

One thread has already been pulled for the flaming involved.This one will end up going the same way if people participating do not:

1) Read the TOS.
2) Adhere to the TOS.

(in reply to Fidelity)
  Post #: 91
RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/12/2005 3:49:56 PM   
luvdragonx


Posts: 388
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:


Most if not every point you made in the post I am now responding to were stated by me - albeit in different words and not all in one place - in the "cake" thread. I knew we shared the same views on it, I just wanted to hear you say it rather than have you nibble at my ankles continually concerning the minutia of my statements.

I wonder if you noticed how many times I stated that I knew that you would tend to agree with me on the bigger subject if you could let the tiny bits drop. Of course you couldn't let the smaller bits pass because you wanted to play "king of the mountain" rather than have a discussion. So there you were: peck, peck, peck - like a chicken at the feed mound.

More below...


Geez man, lay off!!! They've already pulled one thread because of this bullshit, I don't want to see it happen with this one.

You've done what you accuse others of doing, and that is NOT contributing to the discussion at hand. Your post had ONE point, and that was to stick to LaM for whatever reason and have the last word.

Let
It
Go

Edited to add: Sorry Mods, you hit OK before I did.

< Message edited by luvdragonx -- 8/12/2005 3:51:45 PM >

_____________________________

Never Without Love

(in reply to junkyard)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/12/2005 4:21:40 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
fille -

I was going to write to you personally, but decided that it was more appropriate to write so here, after consultation with Demon.

You have nothing to apologise for. You have started no arguments and I believe your post and writings were very clear. If someone desires not to take real notice of what someone is writing, and decides to try and exert some sort of authority that they really don't have over another, thats their problem, not yours and you dont have anything, IMO to apologise for.
Sometimes, people become so blinded by their own ignorance, they would rather defend and offend than read, listen and actually hear. People only feel the need to defend something they believe in with vitriol when they are at a loss. You have been nothing but yourself and your words have not failed you.
Others may wish to take a long hard look, and see a fine example to learn themselves.

As for the OP - one can love, yet not be in love. If you are unaware of the difference, then you have never truely tasted love.

Peace and Love.

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to pinkpleasures)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/12/2005 4:35:07 PM   
subcheryl


Posts: 280
Joined: 11/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

For someone that labels 'religious beliefs' as irrational, you seem intent on imposing your own beliefs on the rest of us.


With all due respect, aren't we all "imposing" to an extent our beliefs upon another when we post them in a public forum. I went back through this thread several times now and I did not see one single instance of where Fidelity had told anyone that they must change their ethics, beliefs, opinions or actions to suit him. He has merely stated repeatedly how he personally views the topic of cheating. Everyone else has also stated the ways that they feel about it. Is he not as entitled to his beliefs as everyone else is to theirs? Is he somehow worse for stating his than anyone else on this thread who has stated theirs? What makes him wrong for his views and everyone else right for theirs?



I agree with you. I applaud those who take this veiw of consciously trying to be moral and honest, yes we all make our mistakes, and yes if we have any kind of moral fiber we deal with the consequences of those mistakes, the woman of the op did not appear to be taking resposibility of her actions instead is repeating them over and over again. And I personally would not have had anything to do with a man in the same situation, I have even dated men who I knew for sure had left their wives, only to have them go back to them after a month or two so guess what, no more seperated men are considered by me either, they have to be divorced completely now before I would even consider them.

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/12/2005 6:54:46 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Yes, you are probably right that there are other things that will always kill a relationship. But an honest relationship will survive virtually any hardship.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkpleasures

Lam..i do not agree that dishonesty is the ONLY thing that will always kill a relationship...but it surely does have that effect.


(in reply to pinkpleasures)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/12/2005 7:17:26 PM   
pinkpleasures


Posts: 1114
Status: offline
Not talking about hardships...my loyalty is legion amoung my friends. i was referring to bigotry; cruelty to people in no position to protect themselves; etc.

pinkpleasures

_____________________________



(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/12/2005 7:21:02 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		You'd think so, but I don't think it's always true. For one thing, two bigots will get along just fine. But I've also been amazed by relationships that survive bigotry. I mean, didn't Eva Braun have Jewish blood? Maybe I'm wrong about that; but I've seen a lot of cases where two people have stuck together for life even though one of them was prejudiced against the other person's race or ethnicity. It's kind of mind-boggling.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkpleasures

bigotry

(in reply to pinkpleasures)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/12/2005 7:34:35 PM   
pinkpleasures


Posts: 1114
Status: offline 		Well, not me. Though i am amazed to hear that about Eva Braun. One use of the "n" word and His ass would be grass; even after 20 years together. i know there is racism in the world, but i choose not to have it in my living room. That's why it's on my profile and if Men think i'm kidding; i'm not. i truely cannot abide bigots; which i suppose is itself a form of bigotry. i cannot find any compassion in my heart for them and have the urge to bash them over the head with a heavy object.

Other people are different from me about this, i know. And marrying someone whose race You were bigoted against would take some psychoanalysis to unravel. i have never heard of such a thing; though of course i know of families who hated their children's marriage partner for their race. My in-laws hated that i was Catholic...a bigotry i was totally unprepared for...it seemed so antiquated. However, the bigotry never ends...and those of us who are not full of hate should speak to counter it. Not endlessly, or inappropriate forums, etc., but neither should we allow racist jokes to pass without comment. Actually, i take that back -- everyone run your own lives. Email me if you feel you need my help.

pinkpleasures

< Message edited by pinkpleasures -- 8/12/2005 7:35:39 PM >

_____________________________



(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/13/2005 10:54:55 AM   
Fidelity


Posts: 192
Joined: 8/1/2005
Status: offline 		grins......I know when to quit-I can take a warning.

And can we return to our regularly scheduled program now please?

< Message edited by Fidelity -- 8/13/2005 10:57:36 AM >

(in reply to stormsfate)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/13/2005 12:08:50 PM   
DublinSwitch


Posts: 59
Joined: 1/28/2005
Status: offline 		Yeah - poor Junkyard, I have already kind of apoligised once on this thread (something of a first lol) and for me it seems that we're not going to agree.

So personally I am leaving it alone

Anyways, hope ye all have a cracking weekend.

Cheers

DS

(in reply to stormsfate)
Profile   Post #: 100
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