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RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/16/2005 9:17:35 PM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luvdragonx

Come on, caitlyn, anytime you knowingly participate in a situation that is below board, you're partly responsible, even if you don't initiate it. If your friend picks you up in a stolen car and you go riding around town, knowing the car is stolen - even though you didn't steal it, you're partly responsible. if you knowingly go out with a married man and you know his wife has no idea, you are a party to it. Now you may not care what happens in their relationship, nor are you required to. But you are participating in his sneaky behavior, there's no way around that. At a minimum, you're choosing to associate with an openly dishonest person. Why is that?



And how would I know his wife has no idea?

Again, what goes on within their relationship is just none of my business ... so I'm not going to ask. For all I know the wife is doing the same thing, and they know about it ... or don't know about it ... or don't even care. It just isn't my business.

You are making an assumption that was never part of anything I actually said.

You might also consider, that I said "go out with" and also said I wouldn't sleep with a married man. This is 2005, not 1505 ... men and women are allowed to have friends of the other sex. For all I know, the wife is fine with her husband going out with another girl. Maybe he goes home, and dreams about his young honey and screws his wife brains out.

I'm not the "marriage police", and what goes on in their relationship, is just none of my business.

To use your own example, if a friend picks me up in a new car, I'm not going to make them show me the approved loan application before I get inside.

No offense intended, but I believe that both you and Timothy are putting your own thoughts into what I posted, rather than taking what was said at face value. I never said I would knowingly assist someone in cheating in their spouse ... I said I would go out with a married man in a minute, as long as he is honest about being married.

Gee, do you think there is a chance that if he is being honest with me ... he might just be an honest person, and may not be lying to anyone ... his wife included?

Think about it.

< Message edited by caitlyn -- 8/16/2005 9:23:52 PM >

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RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/16/2005 9:20:13 PM   
slavedesires


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< Message edited by slavedesires -- 8/20/2005 1:50:32 PM >

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RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/16/2005 9:34:37 PM   
luvdragonx


Posts: 388
Joined: 6/22/2005
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quote:


And how would I know his wife has no idea?

Again, what goes on within their relationship is just none of my business ... so I'm not going to ask. For all I know the wife is doing the same thing, and they know about it ... or don't know about it ... or don't even care. It just isn't my business.

You are making an assumption that was never part of anything I actually said.

You might also consider, that I said "go out with" and specifically said I wouldn't sleep with a married man. This is 2005, not 1505 ... men and women are allowed to have friends of the other sex. For all I know, the wife is fine with her husband going out with another girl. Maybe he goes home, and dreams about his young honey and screws his wife brains out.

Again, I'm not the "marriage police", and what goes on in their relationship, is just none of my business.

To use your own example, if a friend picks me up in a new car, I'm not going to make them show me the approved loan application before I get inside.

No offense intended, but I believe that both you and Timothy are putting your own thoughts into what I posted, rather than taking what was said at face value.


Well, to be fair, the topic of this thread was about knowingly participating in someone else's cheating. And you said in your original post:

quote:

I'll go out with an older married guy in a minute, as long as he tells me in advance that he's married. He's not going to get me in bed, but we can go out, have fun, go dancing, get drunk, whetever. If he is really cool, fooling around a little isn't out of the question.


Of course fooling around a little is more acceptable than full on sex, right?

And no, you don't have to ask for license and registration but the screwdriver in the ignition is a dead give away.

Basically you said that you wouldn't care whether he was dishonest or not, as long as you didn't have to know about it. I just wanted to know why you feel that way. I've met too many mentally unbalanced women to want some married guy's crazy wife stalking me. So I personally need to hear that she's aware of what's going on. That's for my conscience and peace of mind.

If he tells you his wife knows and is fine with it, cool.. If he says his wife doesn't know and you don't care, cool. You don't have to CARE about the wife, no one is saying you have to. But to say that you have nothing to do with it, just because you make a point not to find out, seems a little unrealistic. Again, if it came across to you in a negative way, I'm sorry, it wasn't intended that way. But the OP was about personal responsibility in situations where you are involved with a married person who's spouse may or may not know about you. Your first post sounded callous and a little flip, even, in that you said you don't care(none of your business) what happens to other people as long as you get what you want out of it.

< Message edited by luvdragonx -- 8/16/2005 9:52:17 PM >

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RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/16/2005 9:48:03 PM   
thelight


Posts: 82
Joined: 7/31/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: luvdragonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: domtimothy46176

This is a morally bankrupt position, anyway you slice it. One is always responsible for the impact of their actions. Just because you can't see the damage you are doing to a woman's marriage by dating her husband doesn't mean you don't still share culpability for knowingly interfering in their marital affairs.


That's just silly Timothy, any way you slice it.

Its not like I'm the only girl on Earth, and if I said no when a married guy asks me out, that means he will go running home to his wife and make everything better.

This is an issue between a man and his wife. What I do has no impact on that issue, and frankly it just isn't any of my business, and more that what I do is any of your business.


Come on, caitlyn, anytime you knowingly participate in a situation that is below board, you're partly responsible, even if you don't initiate it. If your friend picks you up in a stolen car and you go riding around town, knowing the car is stolen - even though you didn't steal it, you're partly responsible. if you knowingly go out with a married man and you know his wife has no idea, you are a party to it. Now you may not care what happens in their relationship, nor are you required to. But you are participating in his sneaky behavior, there's no way around that. At a minimum, you're choosing to associate with an openly dishonest person. Why is that?


although it is bad form for caitlyn to belittle other people's ideas by calling them silly (and no, the winky smiley doesn't earn her a pass), i support her position.

first of all, marriage means different things to different people. some see it as a life-long commitment, to others it is merely a matter of convenience. i know one couple that got married purely as a benefit scam. he was in the army, and would get extra housing allowance if he was married. she needed medical insurance, which the army would provide if she married him. i know another couple who got married for income tax purposes. i married my wife so that she could get a green card. if you assume that people have committed themselves for life just because they are married, you are imposing your ideals of marriage onto their relationship, when in fact, their ideals may be entirely different from yours. it is not caitlyn's place to define the parameters of acceptable behavior within a marriage to which she is not a party.

secondly, each person is the sole the guardian of his or her own conscience. if someone wants to break his marriage vows, that is his decision to make. if some of you want to cast judgment upon him for that, i suppose it is your right, but you go a step too far by casting judgment upon caitlyn for refusing to cast judgment upon him.

finally, luvdragonx goes so far as to suggest that caitlyn should not even associate herself with dishonest people. show me a person who refuses to associate with anyone who is not a paragon of moral virtue, and i'll show you a very lonely person. i have friends who are drug dealers and theives, some have probably even committed murder. as long as they treat me with kindness and respect, i try not to judge them.

(in reply to luvdragonx)
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RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/16/2005 9:55:09 PM   
caitlyn


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Joined: 12/22/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: luvdragonx

Basically you said that you wouldn't care whether he was dishonest or not, as long as you didn't have to know about it.


I never said anything of the sort. What I said, is that what goes on within his marriage, is just none of my business, and then qualified it with several examples where it could be happening knowingly, mutually or even as part of their own relationship.

This is just mindless arguement at this point ... or perhaps we are playing "hammer Caitlyn by taking her out of context and putting words in her mouth" ... so have fun and good luck. Lots of other stuff I never said to use here, ha-ha!

_____________________________

I wish I could buy back ...
the woman you stole.

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RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/16/2005 9:58:12 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Justification???? Or am I fucking stupid?

Curiously,
Ron

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RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/16/2005 10:03:22 PM   
luvdragonx


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Joined: 6/22/2005
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quote:

finally, luvdragonx goes so far as to suggest that caitlyn should not even associate herself with dishonest people. show me a person who refuses to associate with anyone who is not a paragon of moral virtue, and i'll show you a very lonely person. i have friends who are drug dealers and theives, some have probably even committed murder. as long as they treat me with kindness and respect, i try not to judge them.


Did I say 'You shouldn't even associate with a dishonest person'? No, I asked her why she would. If she doesn't care, she doesn't care, that's on her, not me. I just asked why. I've read several of her posts before, and her 'turn a blind-eye' attitude surprised me.

I PERSONALLY choose not to closely associate with people who have questionable and possibly illegal dealings because I've known too many people to go down by association. If that's a risk you're willing to take, more power to you. I'm not willing to take that kind of risk. Just as I'm not willing to risk a pissed off woman sugaring my tank or cutting my tires or harrassing me over her husband.

The point I was arguing was not that you should judge this man based on what he's doing. My point was whether or not you care about the outcome of your involvement, you are ultimately, involved.

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Profile   Post #: 127
RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/16/2005 10:11:17 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		Two final thoughts:

First, I hope the moderators don't see any of these posts as flames, because I don't feel flamed and really didn't mean to flame anyone. I think we were just communicating openly about a difficult issue.

Second, I have now completely changed my postion!!!!!

From now on, anyone that asks me out is going to have to prove beyond any doubt that they are not married or involved in a relationship where they are not supposed to date other people. Anyone have any ideas on how I can make that happen?

I promise to check every car ignition for screw drivers.

I will never again consider a little kissing as anything short of complete carnal knowledge.

< Message edited by caitlyn -- 8/16/2005 10:13:35 PM >

_____________________________

I wish I could buy back ...
the woman you stole.

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Profile   Post #: 128
RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/16/2005 10:14:14 PM   
luvdragonx


Posts: 388
Joined: 6/22/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: luvdragonx

Basically you said that you wouldn't care whether he was dishonest or not, as long as you didn't have to know about it.


I never said anything of the sort. What I said, is that what goes on within his marriage, is just none of my business, and then qualified it with several examples where it could be happening knowingly, mutually or even as part of their own relationship.

This is just mindless arguement at this point ... or perhaps we are playing "hammer Caitlyn by taking her out of context and putting words in her mouth" ... so have fun and good luck. Lots of other stuff I never said to use here, ha-ha!


Um, no, it's nothing personal, it's just that you were the one who said it, so I'm replying to you.

quote:

I don't want to know about his situation at home, and really don't care. We're both getting what we want I guess. Maybe he is hurting his wife at home, but maybe she is doing the same thing ... that's just none of my business.


Maybe not what you meant, maybe not what I understood you to mean, but it's definitely what you said.

I'm not arguing that it could never be a consensual agreement between the man and his wife. I know folks who live that way and have done it myself. All I'm saying is that whether or not you know, or choose to whether or not to know if he's being dishonest doesn't change that fact that you are involved. That's all.

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RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/16/2005 10:19:04 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Things that make you go........hhhhhmmmmmmmmmmm.



Ron

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RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/16/2005 10:45:10 PM   
luvdragonx


Posts: 388
Joined: 6/22/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thelight

quote:

ORIGINAL: luvdragonx

I have to ask: if you care about hurting her so much, why not just tell her you're interested in sleeping with another woman? If she doesn't want to lose you, as you've said, and you care about her, as you've said, then why not be up front with her and let her make the decision?


I did. She said that she really hopes I won't, but that I shouldn't leave her just so I can be with someone else, and if it happens, she doesn't want to know about it.


That makes sense then. You have more heart than a lot of men I know. They would just do what they felt like doing and watch the fallout later. I've been in a similar situation, the only difference was I wanted to know what he was doing.

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RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/16/2005 11:08:46 PM   
thelight


Posts: 82
Joined: 7/31/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: luvdragonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: thelight

quote:

ORIGINAL: luvdragonx

I have to ask: if you care about hurting her so much, why not just tell her you're interested in sleeping with another woman? If she doesn't want to lose you, as you've said, and you care about her, as you've said, then why not be up front with her and let her make the decision?


I did. She said that she really hopes I won't, but that I shouldn't leave her just so I can be with someone else, and if it happens, she doesn't want to know about it.


That makes sense then. You have more heart than a lot of men I know. They would just do what they felt like doing and watch the fallout later. I've been in a similar situation, the only difference was I wanted to know what he was doing.


would you be willing to share what happened in your situation? i am very curious, since it is somewhat similar to my own.

i see that you were recently collared. i am happy for you, and for your lucky master as well.


< Message edited by thelight -- 8/16/2005 11:13:01 PM >

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RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/16/2005 11:23:10 PM   
luvdragonx


Posts: 388
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline 		Thank you very much!

I'd be more than happy to share with you and maybe talk about it. I emailed you on the other side.

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RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/17/2005 7:59:34 AM   
domtimothy46176


Posts: 670
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From: Dayton, Ohio area
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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

That's just silly Timothy, any way you slice it.

Its not like I'm the only girl on Earth, and if I said no when a married guy asks me out, that means he will go running home to his wife and make everything better.

This is an issue between a man and his wife. What I do has no impact on that issue, and frankly it just isn't any of my business, and more that what I do is any of your business.


I think logic supports my position. By entering into a relationship with a married man, you alter the dynamic of the marriage. Your action (dating the husband) changes the dynamic from him-her to you-him-her. The result of your action is demonstrable, you receive time and attention to which his wife has prior claim. He is responsible for offering you that which he owes his wife, but your acceptance makes you a willing participant in his fraud. The ethical considerations are clearly established. For a more tangible analogy, one need only look at the issue of receiving stolen property. One always becomes a party to that which is dependant on one's willing participation. To correct your statement, it should read: This is an issue between me, a man and his wife. What I do has impact on that issue, and frankly it is my business.
But I do understand why if would be more comfortable to attempt to evade responsibility for actions that you know are unethical. In my younger days I often did whatever I found to be most pleasing, using whatever justifications I needed to avoid taking responsibility for the collateral damage I couldn't ignore.
Ultimately, it doesn't directly impact me one way or the other. My original post was simply an effort to point out the fallacy of your position, just as this post is just an attempt to show you that your logic is flawed and that the underpinnings of your justification fail in an egegious manner. What you choose to do with that information is your affair.
Timothy

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RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/17/2005 9:30:20 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		Ok ... in addition to the extensive FBI background checks I will now have done prior to dating anyone ... and checking ignitions for screwdrivers ... and considering any sort of kissing as a sexual act ... my actual name will change, to reflect the following:

C AUTION:
A ny
I mproper
T ouch
L essens
Y our
N uptuals

Can we go back to picking on Taggard's website now?

_____________________________

I wish I could buy back ...
the woman you stole.

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Profile   Post #: 135
RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/17/2005 11:06:49 AM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
Can we go back to picking on Taggard's website now?


I'm still pretty content with all the attention I got from TaggardPalooza 2005.

And here I was just about to come in and agree with you 100%.

It is not your responsibility to police what a man does or does not do when he is not with you. I find your position completely honorable and just. You demand that he treat you with respect, and out of respect, you demand he not lie to you about his relationships with other people.

You have no obligation to make sure his wife knows. You have no obligation to deny him (and yourself) companionship because you are not sure his wife knows. Being the other woman is, in my opinion, is not very smart (as few men actually leave their wives) but it is morally neutral.

Of course, it is pretty clear that my opinion is not usually in line with the majority's, so take it for what it is worth...

*wink*

Taggard

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RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/17/2005 9:45:41 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		I agree with all the people who are supporting caitlyn, and the analogy with stolen property, which people keep offering up, doesn't hold water. Knowingly enjoying or profiting from stolen property is criminal. Knowingly committing adultery is not.

< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 8/17/2005 9:55:45 PM >

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RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/18/2005 6:55:54 AM   
thelight


Posts: 82
Joined: 7/31/2005
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quote:

Being the other woman is, in my opinion, is not very smart (as few men actually leave their wives) but it is morally neutral.


why do you assume that "the other woman" wants the man to leave his wife? some women prefer being the other woman.

(in reply to luvdragonx)
Profile   Post #: 138
RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/18/2005 7:04:56 AM   
thelight


Posts: 82
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline
[/quote]

I think logic supports my position. By entering into a relationship with a married man, you alter the dynamic of the marriage. Your action (dating the husband) changes the dynamic from him-her to you-him-her. The result of your action is demonstrable, you receive time and attention to which his wife has prior claim. He is responsible for offering you that which he owes his wife, but your acceptance makes you a willing participant in his fraud. The ethical considerations are clearly established. For a more tangible analogy, one need only look at the issue of receiving stolen property. One always becomes a party to that which is dependant on one's willing participation. [/quote]

So now a husband is analagous to property? Who are you to say that my wife has a "prior claim" to my attention. I give my attention to whomever I choose. If my wife wants my attention, she needs to earn it, and if she isn't earning it, it will wander. Even in relationships where a couple has taken a vow of monogamy (i never did), they don't vow to give one another 100% or their attention.

But then again, I have nothing against receiving stolen property.

(in reply to domtimothy46176)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: I seem to care more about your SO than you...... - 8/18/2005 7:17:52 AM   
luvdragonx


Posts: 388
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline 		One last time.


The analogies were not to argue that she shouldn't be doing it. MY point was that regardless of how she feels about the situation, the woman who sees a married man is involved in his cheating IF he's cheating. Just because she doesn't care about the result of his actions or her actions doesn't negate the fact that she is INVOLVED with it. Period. I said that more than once. No, the woman is not responsible for the maritial issues between the man and wife. But once she becomes knowingly involved with a man who is cheating, whether the wife ever knows about her or not, whether it's only one time or 20, she is partaking in his cheating activities. I didn't say she should feel badly. I didn't say she should give a shit one way or the other how what she does may affect other people. I know what I'm willing to do and not willing to do, so I can live with my choices, just as someone else has to live with their own.

Again, this thread was basically about knowing you're with a cheater, I took caitlyn's comments in the context of the topic of the OP.



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