RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... (Full Version)

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slaveboyforyou -> RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... (11/24/2007 8:56:47 PM)

Fargle, he doesn't have to do that when a person is resisting.  All he was doing when he asked him to step out of the car was detaining him.  That's not an arrest.  They are allowed to do that.  He was having him go to the car, so he could search him and secure the scene.  After he was in cuffs, the officer would have probably explained to him that he was under arrest.  We don't know if he would have arrested him or not.  As I said, all he was doing was detaining him. 

We all don't like things we saw in this video, but a point needs to be made.  A cop that you are dealing with may be the biggest prick in the world.  You may have every right to be pissed off.  But you should ask yourself a question when it happens.  Is this worth arguing about right now?  The cop can make up anything he wants at the time he detains you.  It's going to cost you at least half a day of your time if you're arrested.  You're probably going to have to bond out of jail, and most of us will have to go through a bondsman to do that.  You are going to have to hire an attorney.  You won't get that money back.  I'm telling you this from experience.  When I was in my late teens and early twenties, I had a big mouth.  I'd fight at the drop of a hat.  You'll get that chip knocked right off your shoulder when you mess with the law.  They have the power in those situations.  It's best just to smile and cooperate, than get them in court. 




farglebargle -> RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... (11/24/2007 9:08:53 PM)

In abstract terms, if a police officer is so poorly trained, or so out-of-control that they are unable to INFORM YOU OF YOUR ARREST, then there is no reason to obey their commands, as they are a threat to you and everyone else.

This is about MINIMUM STANDARDS, and in this instance, the cop exhibited a lack of training, control, and judgment and did not meet those standards.

I would further suggest, that the UHP officer was so out of control of the situation, that while he was playing "Electro -- Master of Electricity" with his leetle friend... the wife could have armed herself, and when she saw he husband shot, responded with deadly force. I don't know if she WOULDN'T have been justified, given the UHP officers irrational and erratic behavior.





kdsub -> RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... (11/24/2007 9:16:17 PM)

farglebargle is right about not telling the guy he was under arrest..

Below for those that do not want to listen again;

Cop…How ya doing…you were going kind of fast…I’d like your license and registration.

Driver argues does not give license and registration.

Cop…License and registration.

Driver argues  does not give license and registration

Cop….Now

Driver argues.

Traffic noise…driver continues to argue.

Cop… OK there is a sign right there… giving explanation.

Traffic noise…driver argues.

Cop… OK I’ll be right with you.

Cop returns…gives driver ticket…

Driver… …. 1st your giving me a ticket and your going to tell me why…2nd were going to go look for the 40 MPH sign… by the way I saw one at the beginning of the video…did you…lol

Cop… your going to sign this first

Driver …no I’m not…I’m not signing anything officer.

Cop…Ok get out of the car…turns and walks to car to put down paperwork.

From here we all hear and see… guy tries to argue…. Cop has had enough arguing…turn around and put your hands behind your back…..guy will not stop… walks towards car with back to cop…. Cop…tells him four times to put hands behind back.

Diver is almost to car door… he gets zapped.

The police officer was not impolite or being an asshole at first… the guy just would not do as he was told… the guy was wrong...we could all see the sign… he would not stop…BUT

He was not told he was under arrest… and I personally don’t think he was a threat… but as in my first post… he was speeding in a work zone putting lives in danger then arguing about it… I have little sympathy for him… I do for his passenger.

Butch




slaveboyforyou -> RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... (11/24/2007 9:18:23 PM)

Well, they were in Utah.  She would have got convicted and found herself in front of a firing squad or in a lethal injection chair.  You might find a jury in your part of the country that would go for that, but in states like mine they always take the side of the cop.  Like I said, I understand people's frustration with the law.  But you should spend a day or two in jail before you talk about what you would do.  Trust me, it sucks.




Real0ne -> RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... (11/24/2007 9:26:30 PM)



when the procedure is that bassacwards even in your neck o da woods she has no reason to believe he is a real cop.   Bcause the procedure was done so incorrectly he could very well have been some jerk impersonating a cop and coming for her next.

When it does not quack like a duck no one has a reason to believe its a duck.

They what automatically side with the cop?  I thought you boys were grass roots out there.




farglebargle -> RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... (11/24/2007 9:40:25 PM)

quote:

she has no reason to believe he is a real cop


And that's the real problem here.

Not informing someone they are under arrest isn't a technicality. As a nation of laws, with guarantees of due process, we *must* hold each and every officer accountable to certain minimum standards.

Here, this officer showed he wasn't up to the challenges of his assigned duties.

"If you don't sign that promise-to-appear, I can arrest you" would have been a good start.

"You're under arrest" would have been acceptable AT A MINIMUM.




slaveboyforyou -> RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... (11/24/2007 9:43:31 PM)

Realone, we don't talk like that.  I have been to Wisconsin, so you should really watch what you say, lol.  Y'all don't have any room to talk when it comes to funny accents.  I said it before, I am not defending the cop.  I am just saying that the best strategy is to be nice, than get their ass in court.  You can sway a jury down here when you go out of your way to be a gentleman.  They won't listen to you if you pull that tough guy shit.  I never got into any serious trouble in my life.  But I had some minor infractions with local cops when I was a young man.  I grew up in the kind of town where most of the cops were jock types that I went to high school with.  They didn't like me then, and they didn't like me after they became cops.  I had a big mouth, and trust me that is not the best policy.  You can do a lot more damage to them in court than you can on the side of the road.




adoracat -> RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... (11/24/2007 9:46:29 PM)

~fast reply~

we had two men die where i live in the past week, from being tazered.

the first was pulled over for noise violation.  he was asked to turn down the radio and keep it turned down.  he chose to jump out of the car and run.  the autopsy results havent come back yet.

the second, the man was driving, hit a parked car, started a fight with the owner of the car, tried to run into the house of someone he didnt know, and resisted the officers who were trying to solve the situation (as per witnesses, this was in broad daylight).  he was found to be drunk and using crack cocaine.

i dont know what the answers are.  i know that tazers CAN be lethal to some individuals.

kitten




Real0ne -> RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... (11/24/2007 10:35:42 PM)



that wasnt meant as a shot at the way you talk there LOL






Real0ne -> RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... (11/24/2007 10:37:58 PM)



you would think the tazer mfg's would be nearly sued out of business my now




velvetears -> RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... (11/25/2007 6:40:23 AM)

The cop pulled out the taser and the man, being afraid backed away. The cop did not say he was being placed under arrest untill after he was on the ground alrready tasered. He did tell him he was being placed under arrest only once, while the man was on the ground. The man continually asked for his rights to be read to him, which i never heard the cop do. This looks like a cop who is on a power trip and eager to play with his new toy. He even jokingly told another cop the man took a ride on the taser.  This man was with this family. The guy wasn't being threatening. In fact th cop said he was being taserd for not listening to him. So then we as citizens are to assume we don't even have the right to question cops or they have a right to taser us? i don't think this is ethical and i think it makes people resent cops and their authority - which they are abusing.  i hope the man sues. 




philosophy -> RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... (11/25/2007 8:35:19 AM)

FR

....some here have wondered why, when faced with apparent bad policing, some of us seem to suggest that all cops are bad. Thing is, police officers are supposed to have but one function: to uphold and enforce the law. When they turn a blind eye to any corrupt officers in their station then they have switched to upholding the law selectively. Corrupt police officers, it seems, are only brought to justice when members of the public stand up.....come the day when those corrupt officers are brought to book by their colleagues then maybe confidence in policing may be restored, until then they will remain a target of suspicion.




farglebargle -> RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... (11/25/2007 12:19:04 PM)

Anyone else notice how the cop treated the Driver and his Wife?

Like they were Slaves, compelled to instant obedience under pain of pain.

Consider the implications to a Constitutional Republic of that little fact.




Momentum -> RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... (11/25/2007 1:09:16 PM)

What is an alleged speeding ticket is it a theatre ticket pretending to be a speeding ticket? I need to know, tell me, tell me.




farglebargle -> RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... (11/28/2007 4:02:58 PM)

Over on MeFi, someone put together the relevant Utah code:

N.B.: I see no requirement for a driver's signature.


77-7-18. Citation on misdemeanor or infraction charge.

A peace officer, in lieu of taking a person into custody, any public official of any county or municipality charged with the enforcement of the law, a port-of-entry agent as defined in Section 72-1-102, and a volunteer authorized to issue a citation under Section 41-6a-213 may issue and deliver a citation requiring any person subject to arrest or prosecution on a misdemeanor or infraction charge to appear at the court of the magistrate before whom the person should be taken pursuant to law if the person had been arrested.

77-7-19. Appearance required by citation -- Arrest for failure to appear -- Transfer of cases -- Motor vehicle violations -- Disposition of fines and costs.

(1) Persons receiving misdemeanor citations shall appear before the magistrate designated in the citation on or before the time and date specified in the citation unless the uniform bail schedule adopted by the Judicial Council or Subsection 77-7-21(1) permits forfeiture of bail for the offense charged.
(2) A citation may not require a person to appear sooner than five days or later than 14 days following its issuance.
(3) A person who receives a citation and who fails to comply with Section 77-7-21 on or before the time and date and at the court specified is subject to arrest. The magistrate may issue a warrant of arrest.
(4) Except where otherwise provided by law, a citation or information issued for violations of Title 41, Motor Vehicles, shall state that the person receiving the citation or information shall appear before the magistrate who has jurisdiction over the offense charged.
(5) Any justice court judge may, upon the motion of either the defense attorney or prosecuting attorney, based on a lack of territorial jurisdiction or the disqualification of the judge, transfer cases to a justice court with territorial jurisdiction or the district court within the county.
(6) (a) Clerks and other administrative personnel serving the courts shall ensure that all citations for violation of Title 41, Motor Vehicles, are filed in a court with jurisdiction and venue and shall refuse to receive citations that should be filed in another court.
(b) Fines, fees, costs, and forfeitures imposed or collected for violations of Title 41, Motor Vehicles, which are filed contrary to this section shall be paid to the entitled municipality or county by the state, county, or municipal treasurer who has received the fines, fees, costs, or forfeitures from the court which collected them.
(c) The accounting and remitting of sums due shall be at the close of the fiscal year of the municipality or county which has received fines, fees, costs, or forfeitures as a result of any improperly filed citations.


77-7-20. Service of citation on defendant -- Filing in court -- Contents of citations.

(1) If a citation is issued pursuant to Section 77-7-18, the peace officer or public official shall issue one copy to the person cited and shall within five days file a duplicate copy with the court specified in the citation.
(2) Each copy of the citation issued under authority of this chapter shall contain:
(a) the name of the court before which the person is to appear;
(b) the name of the person cited;
(c) a brief description of the offense charged;
(d) the date, time and place at which the offense is alleged to have occurred;
(e) the date on which the citation was issued;
(f) the name of the peace officer or public official who issued the citation, and the name of the arresting person if an arrest was made by a private party and the citation was issued in lieu of taking the arrested person before a magistrate;
(g) the time and date on or before and after which the person is to appear;
(h) the address of the court in which the person is to appear;
(i) a certification above the signature of the officer issuing the citation in substantially the following language: "I certify that a copy of this citation or information (Summons and Complaint) was duly served upon the defendant according to law on the above date and I know or believe and so allege that the above-named defendant did commit the offense herein set forth contrary to law. I further certify that the court to which the defendant has been directed to appear is the proper court pursuant to Section 77-7-21."; and
(j) a notice containing substantially the following language:
READ CAREFULLY

This citation is not an information and will not be used as an information without your consent. If an information is filed you will be provided a copy by the court. You MUST appear in court on or before the time set in this citation. IF YOU FAIL TO APPEAR AN INFORMATION WILL BE FILED AND THE COURT MAY ISSUE A WARRANT FOR YOUR ARREST.

77-7-21. Proceeding on citation -- Voluntary forfeiture of bail -- Parent signature required -- Information, when required.

(1) (a) A copy of the citation issued under Section 77-7-18 that is filed with the magistrate may be used in lieu of an information to which the person cited may plead guilty or no contest and be sentenced or on which bail may be forfeited.
(b) With the magistrate's approval, a person may voluntarily forfeit bail without appearance being required in any case of a class B misdemeanor or less.
(c) Voluntary forfeiture of bail shall be entered as a conviction and treated the same as if the accused pleaded guilty.
(d) If the person cited is under 18 years of age, and if any of the charges allege a violation of Title 41, the court shall promptly mail a copy of the citation or a notice of the citation to the address as shown on the citation, to the attention of the parent or guardian of the defendant.
(2) An information shall be filed and proceedings held in accordance with the Rules of Criminal Procedure and all other applicable provisions of this code if the person cited:
(a) willfully fails to appear before a magistrate pursuant to a citation issued under Section 77-7-18;
(b) pleads not guilty to the offense charged; or
(c) does not deposit bail on or before the date set for the person's appearance.
(3) (a) The information is an original pleading.
(b) If a person cited waives by written agreement the filing of the information, the prosecution may proceed on the citation.


77-7-22. Failure to appear as misdemeanor.

Any person who willfully fails to appear before a court pursuant to a citation issued under the provisions of Section 77-7-18 is guilty of a class B misdemeanor, regardless of the disposition of the charge upon which he was originally cited.




Alumbrado -> RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... (11/28/2007 4:09:40 PM)

quote:

A peace officer, in lieu of taking a person into custody



There is no requirement to sign.... just as there is no requirement that the LEO let the person drive away unless they sign a promise to appear.  Without the signature, SOP is to sit in jail until such time as a magistrate can see you.

Walking away from that is considered non-compliance, and allows the use of force to obtain compliance, even before any arrest is made.

In other words, a complete non-story.




Sanity -> RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... (11/28/2007 4:29:17 PM)

What's really humerous about your panicking over this situation, farglebargle, is that police are getting soft and politically correct these days. They used to bust your head with a nightstick and leave you in bleeding in a gutter just for looking at them wrong, and not too long ago. Now they record everything, and anything they do is doube and triple guessed every step of the way... but no matter how soft they get, you'll never be permitted to just walk away from them - no matter how much you scream about being a "victim" if they don't allow you complete anarchy

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Anyone else notice how the cop treated the Driver and his Wife?

Like they were Slaves, compelled to instant obedience under pain of pain.

Consider the implications to a Constitutional Republic of that little fact.




Alumbrado -> RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... (11/28/2007 4:35:41 PM)

quote:

Thing is, police officers are supposed to have but one function: to uphold and enforce the law.


That's on TV.  In real life, the 'function' of LEOs is as a reporting agency to the courts.  If they cannot produce the alleged offender, then a signed promise to appear will do.  [;)]

The notion that it is 'bad policing' to not comport themselves in accordance some fictionalized and idealized standard is a myth.




farglebargle -> RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... (11/28/2007 5:10:56 PM)

quote:

just as there is no requirement that the LEO let the person drive away unless they sign a promise to appear.


The officer's options are (1) Issue w/o Driver's Signature or (2) Arrest Driver, of that there is no doubt. So the real question remains, why weren't the guidelines followed?

HERE ARE THE OFFICERS EXACT WORDS:

quote:


"I tasered him because he did not follow my instructions.."


Here are the UHP Guidelines...

quote:


* When a person is a threat to themselves, an officer or another person.
* In cases where the physical use of force would endanger the person or someone else.
* When other means of lesser or equal force by the officer has been ineffective and a threat still exists.


I don't see "Did not obey my instructions, do you?"

"What was the threat requiring the use of deadly force?" is the next question.

Are you really suggesting that cops be allowed to torture and punish you for disobedience WITHOUT BEING ARRESTED? Because that's the second failure here. At NO POINT was the driver arrested PRIOR to being tortured.

quote:


"I am placing you under arrest..."
"Why?"
"because you did not obey my instructions."



Utah Code:
quote:


77-7-7. Force in making arrest.

If a person is being arrested and flees or forcibly resists after being informed of the intention to make the arrest, the person arresting may use reasonable force to effect the arrest.


Hey, if people want to CONSENT to being tortured, that's their choice, but the Framers were quite clear about Due Process and Equal Protection.







Alumbrado -> RE: Police taser man for alleged speeding ticket.... (11/28/2007 9:42:47 PM)

Threat: n.  an indication or warning of probable trouble.
 
Refusal to comply with verbal instructions can be an indication of probable trouble, and therefor a threat under the use of force guidlines and  force may be used to stop the non-compliance, even prior to an arrest being announced.

So the real question is should the officer have used his academy issued mind reading powers to determine why the driver was refusing to comply? 

Or should he have just assumed the best?   [8|]




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