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RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 6:18:43 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

Frankly, because it's not a limit.

Limits say "never, no way, if you make me do this, I would lose faith in you as a person and probably terminate the relationship."

If a man was about to shoot me, and I told her to kill that man, I suspect she'd quickly, gladly, and immediately obey.  Thus, obviously, killing isn't a limit; it's an activity that is acceptable, but only under certain circumstances.

So, sure it might just be semantics; but I think the semantics reflect a distinctly different approach to obedience.  I consider limits to be 'hard' rules.  The submissive says "if you do this, it will damage me and/or cause me to end the relationship we now share."  A woman who was beaten with a baseball bat might, then, say canes are a hard limit because of the emotional reaction it triggers in her.

For our relationship, I make it clear that there is no action that is 'off limits.'  That it is up to the woman to surrender her 'right' to refuse me, save her choice to simply revoke consent  It's a bit like walking a tightrope without a net; more dangerous, but (at least for me) more thrilling.  Obviously, this dynamic isn't for everyone.  Instead of permitting limits, I rely on communication and their trust in me to care for them in a manner that pleases me.  They trust, then, that I won't order one to shoot a man, without just cause, or to suffer a cane unless I truly wished to push them through that experience.  That example would be a powerful demonstration of their trust in me, since I've already earned a degree of trust that says "you know me well enough to know how far I can go." 

Stephan

 
Everyone has limits, whether they voice them or not, you exceed their limits and you damage that person. They do not have to say that they have limits, because all of us do... Now there are some people that will willingly let you exceed their limits, but they are still damaged if you do so.

The ultimate form of this would be telling a submissive to jump off Niagra Falls, yes, she might do it for you, but she would probably not survive... because you exceeded her limits. No amount of trusting in my Daddy and allowing him to harm/damage me will change the outcome if he does so. He finds the best way to deal with preventing these sorts of outcomes is for me to voice my limits... hard or soft it really does not matter... all that means to me is that the risk of damage is not as severe with a soft limit as it is with a hard one.

I have changed my mind about what I find damaging to me as our relationship has progressed. As a matter of fact I trust him enough not to exceed any of my inborne "limits", such as he knows I cannot fly for example, or that being shared with 40 guys would probably destroy me inside... yadda yadda yadda... I trust him to know my limits for me. He only knows them because I have voiced them to him... He does not ever expect me not to 1)voice them 2) not to have them. He also knows if he exceeds them knowingly he is responsible for what happens to me as a result of that.

But that is the responsibility of the care and feeding of an s-type person...

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 11/28/2007 6:21:17 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 6:40:42 PM   
bestbabync


Posts: 1061
Joined: 7/25/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: YourhandMyAss

Depends on the person.

Some limits won't change or go away no matter how much you love the person, nor how long you've been with the person.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bestbabync



i believe that limits do disappear over time when the union becomes real and forever.  i also believe that once that mutual love and trust gets stronger the limits go away.

am i wrong?



wow!  i do not own anyone...sorry!

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RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 6:45:00 PM   
Machts


Posts: 96
Status: offline 		I always try to remember this. I am mortal. Everything I have in this world is borrowed from Mother earth. And she will have it back. And there is nothing I can do to stop it.

We own moments in time, life is how you use them.

And that is all we can really "own".

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RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 6:46:40 PM   
Griffith1


Posts: 1
Joined: 11/7/2007
Status: offline 		I believe hard limits are anything agreed upon by all involved but these change over time as you reach for the next thrill. I used to have " hard limits" but found myself wanting to cross them to suprise my master.  So I guess they are really as stated above. all s/m relationships are all about give and take.

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RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 7:10:17 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: charlotte12

I don't think that placing limits suggests a lack of trust at all. I simply find that when i trust someone i personally no longer wish to call these things limits. I wouldn't kill if Master told me to but i don't call it a limit because i trust him to never ask me to do that.



Ahh, there is the difference. You don't call it a limit, but I do.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

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RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 7:50:22 PM   
Tigrita


Posts: 484
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: California
Status: offline 		I have an experience to describe that perfectly illustrates the problems I see with limits, and the beauty I find in not having them.

Shortly before I met Stephan I was getting to know someone and decided I liked and trusted him enough for what I was expecting to be some light play.  I outlined, in writing, what I thought was a very unambiguous list of limits.  I also made my mindset very clear to him, that I was still seeing other people, not interested in anything intensely emotional, was very new to BDSM and was still learning and exploring and wanting to move slowly.  He then proceeded to put me into a mental headspace where I didn’t know which end was up, and was genuinely afraid he was going to rape me.  He stayed within the letter of my limits, but mindfucked me and completely violated the spirit of them.

A few weeks later I was about to meet Stephan and experienced the exact opposite of this.  He asked me to tell him about my limits and as I thought over my answer, I realized that the type of connection, respect, and trust I had for him left me with no desire at all to draw up a list of this and that and yes and no, and such a beautiful happiness with that realization.  I trusted that he knew me and respected me well enough to never take me farther than I could handle, and we talk about everything so much that I know he knows where that line is, or will find out ahead of time before he pushes it.  Even after my very negative experience shortly before, this is how much I trusted him.  So, I informed him of a minor medical issue, and informed him of a few things that creep me out, information for him to do with what he will.  Yes it was just a gut feeling, yes, it may have been risky, but you first have to trust yourself, then trust another, to experience what I wanted to.  Stephan has never harmed me, or shown me reason to regret giving him this trust, and this power.  He uses it responsibly.  If he decides to flip and kill me this weekend just because I didn't say 'no death and dismemberment', yeah, I'm fucked, I made the wrong decision.  But that would be as random and unlikely as getting hit by a meteor; I accept that risk as surely as I accept the risk of living above ground and not in a bomb shelter to avoid meteors. 

I’m not saying people shouldn’t have limits for casual play, just that they aren’t all they’re cracked up to be.  And I’m not saying people shouldn’t have limits in relationships, just that I don’t feel any desire to have them in mine, that it would not be the kind of relationship I really want if I felt that need to state and draw out limits.   Basically, if someone is going to be irresponsible enough to fuck you up, it isn't going to matter to them whether you had limits drawn out or not.  They'll violate them, find loopholes, or take advantage of your trust if you gave no limits.

_____________________________

~ Tigrita

There is no right path, only the path you take.

Success is making life happen, versus just letting life happen to you.

"Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them." - Charlotte

(in reply to bestbabync)
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RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 7:53:45 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline 		I always enjoy this topic.
My "hard limits" are activities that I have zero interest in, and cross
the line for my own personal moral code.
They are fixed, have not changed in 25 years, and I doubt they ever will change.
 
The activities that are my "hard limits" again, I have no desire to ever partake in.
If I wanted to do most of them, I surely could have done them by now.


< Message edited by MzMia -- 11/28/2007 7:54:21 PM >

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

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RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 8:08:18 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tigrita

I have an experience to describe that perfectly illustrates the problems I see with limits, and the beauty I find in not having them.

Shortly before I met Stephan I was getting to know someone and decided I liked and trusted him enough for what I was expecting to be some light play.  I outlined, in writing, what I thought was a very unambiguous list of limits.  I also made my mindset very clear to him, that I was still seeing other people, not interested in anything intensely emotional, was very new to BDSM and was still learning and exploring and wanting to move slowly.  He then proceeded to put me into a mental headspace where I didn’t know which end was up, and was genuinely afraid he was going to rape me.  He stayed within the letter of my limits, but mindfucked me and completely violated the spirit of them.

A few weeks later I was about to meet Stephan and experienced the exact opposite of this.  He asked me to tell him about my limits and as I thought over my answer, I realized that the type of connection, respect, and trust I had for him left me with no desire at all to draw up a list of this and that and yes and no, and such a beautiful happiness with that realization.  I trusted that he knew me and respected me well enough to never take me farther than I could handle, and we talk about everything so much that I know he knows where that line is, or will find out ahead of time before he pushes it.  Even after my very negative experience shortly before, this is how much I trusted him.  So, I informed him of a minor medical issue, and informed him of a few things that creep me out, information for him to do with what he will.  Yes it was just a gut feeling, yes, it may have been risky, but you first have to trust yourself, then trust another, to experience what I wanted to.  Stephan has never harmed me, or shown me reason to regret giving him this trust, and this power.  He uses it responsibly.  If he decides to flip and kill me this weekend just because I didn't say 'no death and dismemberment', yeah, I'm fucked, I made the wrong decision.  But that would be as random and unlikely as getting hit by a meteor; I accept that risk as surely as I accept the risk of living above ground and not in a bomb shelter to avoid meteors. 

I’m not saying people shouldn’t have limits for casual play, just that they aren’t all they’re cracked up to be.  And I’m not saying people shouldn’t have limits in relationships, just that I don’t feel any desire to have them in mine, that it would not be the kind of relationship I really want if I felt that need to state and draw out limits.   Basically, if someone is going to be irresponsible enough to fuck you up, it isn't going to matter to them whether you had limits drawn out or not.  They'll violate them, find loopholes, or take advantage of your trust if you gave no limits.


Your example seems very "either/or"... like there is nothing inbetween the two extremes.

You say in the above post that your limits with this person you played casually with were really pushed, even though he did not technically exceed them, and then you state you can understand having limits for casual play... it did not seem to help you much, did it?

Like I said, we all have limits, and these are the things that will damage us. Whether or not we define our limits or know them, they still exist. Look at the definition of the word "limit"

1 a: something that bounds, restrains, or confines b: the utmost extent

7: something that is exasperating or intolerable

Now that word can be seen as a limit on the dominants power over the submissive, or it can be viewed as her utmost extent, that which she cannot exceed.

In your example I highly doubt that stephan would have grown two heads and harmed you because you presented him with a few limits to play by, just as the first person you played with found ways to harm you without exceeding what your stated limits were. It does not matter if you stated the limits or not, they were there regardless.. it is the intention of the person playing with you, not the list you make for them to play by.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 8:29:05 PM   
angelslave77


Posts: 478
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline 		So ok I havent read the whole thread but OP your statement "dont ignore me" struck a chord with me. That is an absolute hard limit, I could not be with someone who ignored me as a punishment (by that I mean more than maybe a brief silent period after an arguement) I spent much of my childhood and teen years subjected to this to the point that it destroys me when it happens,I feel worthless to the point of suicidal almost, it causes complete emotional shutdown therefore it is a Hard limit

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RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 8:36:23 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bestbabync

well i am confused.  i am a sub searching still for the Dom/sub ltr relationship.  i do not want the encounter i have with my perspective Dom to be limitless at first.  shouldn't there be some type of safe guards for us subs?  f 

i believe that limits do disappear over time when the union becomes real and forever.  i also believe that once that mutual love and trust gets stronger the limits go away.

am i wrong?


It's up to you if you decide to play before you've learned to trust him based on how much you've seen of him in various circumstances. Some people play just for fun. I don't, I wouldn't even meet until we had talked a whole lot and I felt comfortable with him. That's what works for me, but it doesn't work that way for everyone.

As far as limits disappearing, I wish they were. But the truth is that if you have severe arthritis in your shoulders you won't be able to use an armbinder. For me, I get vertigo easily. Certain positions provoke it. Doesn't matter how long I'm with him, if he does inverted suspension I will be suffering with vertigo for three days minimum. My physical limits won't disappear just because I'm in love or lust or d/s. And my mental health issues won't disappear either. They're just part of me, just like the physical ones and as likely to cause me severe distress.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


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RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 9:31:37 PM   
Tigrita


Posts: 484
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: California
Status: offline 		I think we're on almost exactly the same page juliaoceania.  I agree with you 100% and you've accurately restated the sentiments of my post.  Limits as you define them, as 'an uttermost extent, that which she cannot exceed [or else be harmed]', sure, I do completely agree with that.  What I'm saying is I have no desire or need to limit and constrain my partner by my will.  He is not limited from going anywhere, even those places that might harm me, I build no walls.  I simply trust that he will not invade those places that could harm me.  It is like a country without fences.  There is nothing stopping him from going those places but his will, and his respect for me. 

For that matter, it is not like the fences we might try to build can really keep someone out once we've let someone into that country, made ourselves vulnerable; that was the point of the first example.  So, to me, the fences are meaningless, and it is only the character of the person that matters.  If some want the fences up for additional comfort and clarity with their partners, I have no grudge with them, I just don't like the fences, personally. 

Certainly there could be in between besides my two examples, I just said they were examples, not the end-all be-all.  I guess the last sentence above would be the in between.  Just so happens I haven't experienced that, I haven’t had much experience in the lifestyle before I met Stephan.

Not trying to argue, I really identify with the way you think of things too.


_____________________________

~ Tigrita

There is no right path, only the path you take.

Success is making life happen, versus just letting life happen to you.

"Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them." - Charlotte

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 9:40:11 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Sooner or later something will constrain him whether you do or not, either the extinguishing of your very life or the law or both....

Now we can parse definitions all we want, but the fact of the matter is that everyone has limits and constraints... everyone. You cannot fly, and no matter how much he may will you to be able to, it ain't going to happen. It is a limit on what you can do.

Personally, my Daddy tells me to pick up a gun and shoot someone, even if they were going to kill me, is something I do not know if I could do. I have never been in that situation before, and unless and until you have been pushed passed your limits and attempted to constrain him... well there is no testing your resolve to allow him to do whatever he wants... he is limited by his love and respect for you.... as you have stated.

We can talk airy fairy crap of having "similar limits" and "love and  respect", but the fact of the matter is he does not make your limits... they exist with or without him. And if he exceeds your limits enough, you will cry "uncle" and leave.

Edited to add,... I hope this does not sound harsh.. it is just that I think of limits as something we inherently have these days... I do not make my limits, they just exist.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 11/28/2007 9:43:33 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/28/2007 10:20:20 PM   
Tigrita


Posts: 484
Joined: 8/16/2007
From: California
Status: offline 		I agree with everything you've said.  We are just talking about different kinds of limits.  You, the inherent ones such as not being able to fly and such things we don't have control over, and I about things that one would make and define and put up as fences.  Death and law enforcement and an asthma attack (my medical issue) are not 'limits'  as the type of limits I was speaking of.  I don't limit him in those ways, therefore I don't impose limits on him; factors beyond either of our control in the sense that yes, I'm limited from flying, and my death would limit his future enjoyment of me, his arrest would limit his future actions, but those are not limits I impose on him, they are more like consequences.  So I totally agree with you, there is nothing in any of my posts that disagrees with the existence of limits such as not being able to fly, or consequences outside our control. 

I was only talking about delineated limits of the type as stating 'no, you may not go there, or else I will leave you, or die, or you'll get arrested' (and note that that wouldn't stop sick people anyway).    My version of that is 'there are no fences here for you, you may go wherever you want, but you know that if you go there I may be harmed and thus have to leave you, or I will die, or you will get arrested, and the choice to go there or not is up to you given those consequences.'  It doesn't sound like much difference, the consequences are the same, but the mentality of the unobstructed landscape is an important difference to me.  And I trust that he'll use his power responsibly, and that I won't be hit by a meteor tomorrow.

I don't think I'm that far out of the park compared to most of the posters here.  I think some people just like the fences there where they can see them, despite the fact that their loved-ones would respect those territories anyway, and the jerks would trample over them anyway.  Nothing wrong with that. 

Edited for clarity

< Message edited by Tigrita -- 11/28/2007 10:26:02 PM >

_____________________________

~ Tigrita

There is no right path, only the path you take.

Success is making life happen, versus just letting life happen to you.

"Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them." - Charlotte

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RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/29/2007 2:46:47 AM   
pinakorbacs


Posts: 6
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Status: offline 		If you haven't noticed the quote starts with IMHO- if you knew what that means it would have saved you time and energy, it stands for -In My Humble Opinion

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RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/29/2007 3:29:55 AM   
MadameMarque


Posts: 1128
Joined: 3/19/2005
Status: offline 		If the term, "hard limit," is being used to refer to treatment or circumstances or activities that a person definitely will not agree to accept or tolerate, then it seems to me that any criteria fitting that description is legimate.  If a person says, 'I will not consent to that,' who is anyone else, to say that is not legimate.  It's the very essence of a person's right to self-determination and self-preservation.

It's true that more typically, the term has been used to limit certain activities that are usually either more risky or more likely to offend someone's sensibilities.  But if you're trying to convey to someone what you simply cannot or will not have, in your life, the term 'hard limit,' will serve.

To each person's sensibility, a given set of limits may seem such that it doesn't feel truly submissive.  I'd far rather see someone overcautious with their limits, than someone shamed or pressured or bullied into accepting that to which their intuition and instincts told them they should have said, "no."

Suggesting that a limit isn't legimate sets a bad tone, for this reason.


"It's my life
and I'll do what I want
 do what I want
do what I like!
It's my life"

- Wendy O. Williams

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RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/29/2007 4:14:23 AM   
pinakorbacs


Posts: 6
Joined: 3/22/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: batshalom

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinakorbacs

'Being ignored' also falls in this broad category of subjectivism, what is "ignoring"? Not talking to a person for 2 hours is ignoring ? or ignoring kicks in only after 8 hrs?     


What does time have to do with it? Fear is not logical or rational. Limits are limits, pinakorbacs, regardless if you want to dissect or disagree with them. They don't come with stopwatches or escape clauses and they don't have to make sense to you.


Time is just one of many possible measures to 'ignoring'. An abstract subjective feeling with no other qualifiers is meaningless. Suppose humiliation is a hard limit, with no other qualifiers attached to it or explained, even a smile could be perceived as being sarcastic and thus humiliating...
Fears are indeed irrational..........so are the actions or lack thereof that triggers them.... does it follow that it is the other side's responsibility to run in his mind all the infinite number of irrational patterns that might provoke it?
A hard limit for duct tape , or for anal sex  don't have to make sense to me to abide by them, but a blanket hard limit such as 'ignoring' is in fact a limit imposed by the sub on her Dom! How can a Dom refrain doing something that makes no sense to him, without being told what exactly was meant by ' ignoring'
To me, limits are not limits if they have not been clearly defined and discussed , left deliberately vague and invoked only to find a way out of a sub's failing her Dom....
Yes, although I don't recall anyone mentioning it in this thread, Doms are also entitled to have their hard limits, don't they? I have only one-honesty.  


 

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RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/29/2007 4:32:12 AM   
TysGalilah


Posts: 589
Joined: 11/21/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tigrita

I have an experience to describe that perfectly illustrates the problems I see with limits, and the beauty I find in not having them.

Shortly before I met Stephan I was getting to know someone and decided I liked and trusted him enough for what I was expecting to be some light play.  I outlined, in writing, what I thought was a very unambiguous list of limits.  I also made my mindset very clear to him, that I was still seeing other people, not interested in anything intensely emotional, was very new to BDSM and was still learning and exploring and wanting to move slowly.  He then proceeded to put me into a mental headspace where I didn’t know which end was up, and was genuinely afraid he was going to rape me.  He stayed within the letter of my limits, but mindfucked me and completely violated the spirit of them.

A few weeks later I was about to meet Stephan and experienced the exact opposite of this.  He asked me to tell him about my limits and as I thought over my answer, I realized that the type of connection, respect, and trust I had for him left me with no desire at all to draw up a list of this and that and yes and no, and such a beautiful happiness with that realization.  I trusted that he knew me and respected me well enough to never take me farther than I could handle, and we talk about everything so much that I know he knows where that line is, or will find out ahead of time before he pushes it.  Even after my very negative experience shortly before, this is how much I trusted him.  So, I informed him of a minor medical issue, and informed him of a few things that creep me out, information for him to do with what he will.  Yes it was just a gut feeling, yes, it may have been risky, but you first have to trust yourself, then trust another, to experience what I wanted to.  Stephan has never harmed me, or shown me reason to regret giving him this trust, and this power.  He uses it responsibly.  If he decides to flip and kill me this weekend just because I didn't say 'no death and dismemberment', yeah, I'm fucked, I made the wrong decision.  But that would be as random and unlikely as getting hit by a meteor; I accept that risk as surely as I accept the risk of living above ground and not in a bomb shelter to avoid meteors. 

I’m not saying people shouldn’t have limits for casual play, just that they aren’t all they’re cracked up to be.  And I’m not saying people shouldn’t have limits in relationships, just that I don’t feel any desire to have them in mine, that it would not be the kind of relationship I really want if I felt that need to state and draw out limits.   Basically, if someone is going to be irresponsible enough to fuck you up, it isn't going to matter to them whether you had limits drawn out or not.  They'll violate them, find loopholes, or take advantage of your trust if you gave no limits.


I can really relate to this.  I don't think I have ever really sat down with Tyson and listed a formal set of limits soft or hard.
 
My first experience/relationship in this lifestyle was with a Top..   and even tho' we got to know each other a little on the phone and in person> before we agreed to begin I was given a 3 page questionaire to complete.  Because of the dynamic of Top/me  I can understand the usefulness of this back then.  He was not invested in me or in Us..  our dynamic was about the physical aspects of bdsm...and ( supposedly ) without the emotional or intimacy feelings.  Not that he didn't CARE about me...he did...but more as in  concern for my safety and health in the moment and as it pertained to our play.
   In this dynamic > limits and my limitations needed to be clearly defined.
 
 With Tyson, I can remember having many discussions before we met..and then after we met the discussion continued, and still do to this day !   Discussions about everything...all feelings...past experiences..LIFE experiences as well as lifestyle experiences...my reactions or lack there of.
 
  It was the natural course of things because he knows HOW to communicate and he knows how to LISTEN...(for the record, he actually taught/inspires me how to be a better communicator, especially about my feelings and needs)....He is respectful and he cares about my health and my sanity...emotionally and physically.  I didn't want or need to limit him. 
 
  So showing up with a list of my conditions or limits was not necessary for me anyway.  But there was alot of dialogue that sounded like :
   him: " have you ever  ____________?"
     or  " how do you feel about ____________?"
       "I really don't care for __________  what are your thoughts about that?"
    " I noticed ________ about __________   does or can it effect your stamina or ability to tolerate ______________ ??"
 
   me: 
      " I have no experience with _________ and it kind of creeps me out to think about it."
     " That was done to me once and I felt _____________"
    " yes, I have extreme panic attack in the past when __________ is done to me"
 
I was honest and open
and he listened  and took all I said into consideration in our relationship.   Over the course of 10 years, things evolve, people grow, feelings change and deepen.....trust grows.. what were once emotional hesitations became CRAVINGS and desires..
  ( call that limits changing if you want to...I just know the feelings changed.. I changes in so many ways)
 
In retrospect it was almost like HE actually defined many of my "hard limits" for me, with the info I supplied.
 
There has been times when Tyson has said  " my biggest job is protecting you from yourself"..  He is constantly pulling back the reigns.. frustrates the hell out of me at times...but is also the very reason I can trust him to the lengths that I do and can.
chuckle and groan.
 HE probably has more sense of the limits we need  in our relationship than I do.
       does that sounds crazy? or irresponsible?   shrugs..
   just my honest impression.
 
 
 

_____________________________

galilah

.."There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. " Edith Wharton

(in reply to Tigrita)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/29/2007 4:36:38 AM   
HalloweenWhite


Posts: 1028
Joined: 6/20/2005
Status: offline 		I think a legitimate hard limit is anything a submissives says is theirs. As Dommes/Doms. dont We have a responsibility to respect limits?.

(in reply to pinakorbacs)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/29/2007 5:13:44 AM   
batshalom


Posts: 1990
Joined: 9/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pinakorbacs


Time is just one of many possible measures to 'ignoring'. An abstract subjective feeling with no other qualifiers is meaningless. Suppose humiliation is a hard limit, with no other qualifiers attached to it or explained, even a smile could be perceived as being sarcastic and thus humiliating...

Ignoring, to me, seems pretty cut and dried. It doesn't need much of a qualifier. But that's just my opinion because being ignored is one of my hard limits stemming from trauma.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinakorbacs
A hard limit for duct tape , or for anal sex  don't have to make sense to me to abide by them, but a blanket hard limit such as 'ignoring' is in fact a limit imposed by the sub on her Dom! How can a Dom refrain doing something that makes no sense to him, without being told what exactly was meant by ' ignoring'


If you want to be technical, all of a sub's hard limits are limits imposed by the sub on her Dom.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pinakorbacs
Fears are indeed irrational..........so are the actions or lack thereof that triggers them.... does it follow that it is the other side's responsibility to run in his mind all the infinite number of irrational patterns that might provoke it?

To me, limits are not limits if they have not been clearly defined and discussed , left deliberately vague and invoked only to find a way out of a sub's failing her Dom....
 

Then to me, if your sub hands you a limit that isn't clear, it is your job to ask questions so that it is clearer. She certainly can't read your mind. If you don't ask questions, she can only assume that you understand. 

How you can go from not understanding a limit to knowing she left something deliberately vague in order to have an "out", and still take no responsibility for your part in it is simply beyond me. 

(in reply to pinakorbacs)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/29/2007 5:20:14 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

I was only talking about delineated limits of the type as stating 'no, you may not go there, or else I will leave you, or die, or you'll get arrested' (and note that that wouldn't stop sick people anyway).    My version of that is 'there are no fences here for you, you may go wherever you want, but you know that if you go there I may be harmed and thus have to leave you, or I will die, or you will get arrested, and the choice to go there or not is up to you given those consequences.'  It doesn't sound like much difference, the consequences are the same, but the mentality of the unobstructed landscape is an important difference to me.  And I trust that he'll use his power responsibly, and that I won't be hit by a meteor tomorrow.




For you, it might feel different. For me it does not feel different. I suppose it is because the word "limit" is a word I take literally. My Daddy insists I have limits, for the reasons I have listed here. It is not a matter of trust for us, it is just a matter of fact. If he does not respect my limits, he will not have me.

I believe it is the job of the dominant to understand that a submissive does not know all her own limits, but the ones she can vocalize would definitely help him figure out what was in her head... I do not know what difference it really means to say "I have no limits, but if you go certain places I would leave you" Such as if you found out your man was a drug dealer, or a rapist, or he harmed you in some way.... now you are probably pretty safe in knowing he would not do that, but it is still a limiting factor on your relationship in my mind... but my mind is not important in your worldview...lol

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Tigrita)
Profile   Post #: 80
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