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RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/29/2007 8:35:13 AM

Stephann

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Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

In your example I highly doubt that stephan would have grown two heads and harmed you because you presented him with a few limits to play by, just as the first person you played with found ways to harm you without exceeding what your stated limits were. It does not matter if you stated the limits or not, they were there regardless.. it is the intention of the person playing with you, not the list you make for them to play by.

Hi Julia,

See, what I see here isn't really a conversation about the concept of limits, but the semantics. We are saying "we don't paint lines establishing what is acceptable behavior or not." You're saying "those lines are there, whether you paint them or not." For me, it is the painting of those lines that we don't engage in. Rather, we simply discuss issues that impact us, that are important to us, and ultimately I hold responsibility. You and your daddy do the same; the distinction is that you are entrusted with ultimate responsibility to say "do this, and I leave." In our relationship, I am entrusted with that responsibility "If I do this, I expect you'll probably leave." Neither approach is better or worse, but there is an inherent and clear difference in my mind. Rolling both concepts up and naming them 'limits' doesn't mean they aren't two distinctly different mentalities.

Stephan

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 81

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/29/2007 8:50:50 AM

MystressDream

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From: Colorado
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

In your example I highly doubt that stephan would have grown two heads and harmed you because you presented him with a few limits to play by, just as the first person you played with found ways to harm you without exceeding what your stated limits were. It does not matter if you stated the limits or not, they were there regardless.. it is the intention of the person playing with you, not the list you make for them to play by.

Hi Julia,

See, what I see here isn't really a conversation about the concept of limits, but the semantics. We are saying "we don't paint lines establishing what is acceptable behavior or not." You're saying "those lines are there, whether you paint them or not." For me, it is the painting of those lines that we don't engage in. Rather, we simply discuss issues that impact us, that are important to us, and ultimately I hold responsibility. You and your daddy do the same; the distinction is that you are entrusted with ultimate responsibility to say "do this, and I leave." In our relationship, I am entrusted with that responsibility "If I do this, I expect you'll probably leave." Neither approach is better or worse, but there is an inherent and clear difference in my mind. Rolling both concepts up and naming them 'limits' doesn't mean they aren't two distinctly different mentalities.

Stephan

OH MY GOD.... semantics???? You mean to tell me that people here argue about semantics???? Oh please... tell me it isn't so! <grin>

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Post #: 82

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/29/2007 8:52:22 AM

juliaoceania

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No, I do not think you understand what I am saying...

I am saying that limits exist whether you name them or not. Not calling them limits is not going to change what they are. A person's limits exist no matter what relationship they are in. I never expect my Daddy would cross my limits in a way that would cause me to leave him, but there very well are things that he could do that could cause me to leave. I do not have to name each and every one of these things that he could do, but not naming them does not mean they do not exist....

There is a list of limits that exist on my profile, the limits that involve BDSM do not apply with him anymore... that is why they are left there, to remind me that limits are not static, and they change. There are two limits that are not BDSM related... they still very much exist. I will not hunt for sport and I do not have sex with conservatives... now Daddy does not hunt, nor is he conservative... but those limits still apply. If he ordered me to hunt tomorrow, I would not do it. If he ordered me to love George Bush, I could not do it. It is not a "fence", it goes to the core of who I am. I am not keeping him "out", I am maintaining my own integrity. There is a difference.

I do not actually view limits as a fence that someone erects intentionally, it is just the way they are. People change, and they exceed their limits often, and they grow as a result... but just as often it does not work that way.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 83

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/29/2007 9:04:39 AM

Tigrita

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From: California
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Yes, Julia, I have limits. Within myself, and ones that limit Stephan. The kind of limits you are talking about, yes, I do have them, I agree, you are correct, we are on the same page.

I don't have limits that I actively impose on Stephan. Different animal.

I'm going to go get some asparin.

~ J

_____________________________

~ Tigrita

There is no right path, only the path you take.

Success is making life happen, versus just letting life happen to you.

"Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them." - Charlotte

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Post #: 84

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/29/2007 9:30:41 AM

Stephann

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

No, I do not think you understand what I am saying...

It's possible. I'm more inclined to believe you don't approve of what I'm trying to say.

I am saying that limits exist whether you name them or not. Not calling them limits is not going to change what they are. A person's limits exist no matter what relationship they are in. I never expect my Daddy would cross my limits in a way that would cause me to leave him, but there very well are things that he could do that could cause me to leave. I do not have to name each and every one of these things that he could do, but not naming them does not mean they do not exist....

I will state that 'limits' as we apply them in our relationships are not related to 'physical limitations.' They're entirely different concepts. The word 'orange' represents a fruit; it can also represent a color. It's a different concept entirely.

There is a list of limits that exist on my profile, the limits that involve BDSM do not apply with him anymore... that is why they are left there, to remind me that limits are not static, and they change. There are two limits that are not BDSM related... they still very much exist. I will not hunt for sport and I do not have sex with conservatives... now Daddy does not hunt, nor is he conservative... but those limits still apply. If he ordered me to hunt tomorrow, I would not do it. If he ordered me to love George Bush, I could not do it. It is not a "fence", it goes to the core of who I am. I am not keeping him "out", I am maintaining my own integrity. There is a difference.

I do not actually view limits as a fence that someone erects intentionally, it is just the way they are. People change, and they exceed their limits often, and they grow as a result... but just as often it does not work that way.

Here's where we depart. You are actively asserting authority over yourself. You are saying to him "It doesn't matter who you are or what you do, I refuse this."

It's a fence that you have built, to protect yourself. You say you need this fence, because that's simply how you are. It gives you the perceived 'right' within your D/s dynamic to serve otherwise unconditionally. It's saying "I serve unconditionally, except for these two conditions." My girls don't have "those two conditions." They are left only with the parachute of revoking consent, which terminates the relationship we're engaged in. I'm aware of the activities that would cause either of them to use that parachute; I don't consider them to be limits, because they expect me to be strong enough to batter down any fence they erect with a bulldozer if I wished. Instead of trusting the strength of that self-imposed "I won't" they are left with (as I perceive) a more powerful sense of trust that I will care for and protect them. If there's a fence, I build it; not them.

Stephan

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 85

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/29/2007 9:46:00 AM

juliaoceania

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quote:

I will state that 'limits' as we apply them in our relationships are not related to 'physical limitations.' They're entirely different concepts. The word 'orange' represents a fruit; it can also represent a color. It's a different concept entirely

I am applying the dictionary definition to the word "limit", you can apply whatever meaning you like to the word, makes no difference to me... it still does not change the way I view things... and as I stated to Tigrita, I do not expect my worldview to change your mind... since we have an impasse on the use of the word "limit", the rest of this conversation is rather pointless to me. Learned this in critical thinking 101, people have to agree on definitions in order to have a productive conversation.

quote:

Here's where we depart. You are actively asserting authority over yourself. You are saying to him "It doesn't matter who you are or what you do, I refuse this."

Go order one of your girls to do something against their value system and see how long it takes them to assert themselves... unless you are willing to test it, it really is meaningless to state this on a message board.

quote:

It's a fence that you have built, to protect yourself.

Your saying things not in evidence about me contrary to what I say about myself, rather bold of you. I stated that these limits are things inherent to me, you are stating that they are not... you do not know me, and I find it rather much you would claim to know what I have built, not built, or how I am protecting myself... I am a stranger to you.

quote:

You say you need this fence, because that's simply how you are.

I did not say that at all. I said I do not view it as a fence. You are putting words into my post I never typed.

quote:

It gives you the perceived 'right' within your D/s dynamic to serve otherwise unconditionally.

Huh?

quote:

It gives you the perceived 'right' within your D/s dynamic to serve otherwise unconditionally. It's saying "I serve unconditionally, except for these two conditions." My girls don't have "those two conditions." They are left only with the parachute of revoking consent, which terminates the relationship we're engaged in

Actually I would not be submissive to a conservative or a hunter... so this is a moot point, and I think this was my entire point... before one gives themselves over they should test the waters to make sure their values are similar to the one that has control over them. Since your girls made sure that was the case with you, they're kinda in the same situation as me... never pushed past their limits, and if you push them too far they will revoke their consent and leave... just like I would if my Daddy did the same to me. I have not named my limits with my Daddy, but he knows chainsaw play is out (personal joke between us). He would not be with a submissive that did not have an idea of where her limits were, could not communicate that to him... he encourages this as a healthy thing... that is why I chose him. He just does not see me stating the things that would harm me as some threat to his power over me... but that is just us

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 86

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/29/2007 9:48:24 AM

Stephann

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So, it occurred to me a way to illustrate limits.

"Slave, fly ten feet in the air!"

"But, Master? I can't fly!!!"

"OBEY slave!"

"But but but...."

We've discussed flying is a limit, slaves don't have wings; yet I'm instructing her to do so anyway.

"Fine slave, if you can't fly, bend over for fifty strokes of the belt!"

"Yes Master."

I've given her an instruction she is incapable, for whatever reason, of obeying. Because she has disobeyed, she is punished. This is directly in contention with our traditional concept of limits. Usually, if a slave says "I have a hard limit of being beaten with tomatoes" and I beat that slave with tomatoes, I am violating her trust in me and risk ending the relationship. If I punish her for failing to comply with a hard limit, I am seen as disrespecting her.

Yet if I punish her for failing to obey an obviously impossible instruction, I'm using an old tool to illustrate that a slave or submissive (in my relationships anyway) may be punished for any reason, at any time, or for no reason at all. This isn't me disrespecting her; it's my reminding her of her position, as a slave/submissive.

Stephan

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

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Post #: 87

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/29/2007 9:55:16 AM

velvetears

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Sooner or later something will constrain him whether you do or not, either the extinguishing of your very life or the law or both....

Now we can parse definitions all we want, but the fact of the matter is that everyone has limits and constraints... everyone. You cannot fly, and no matter how much he may will you to be able to, it ain't going to happen. It is a limit on what you can do.

Personally, my Daddy tells me to pick up a gun and shoot someone, even if they were going to kill me, is something I do not know if I could do. I have never been in that situation before, and unless and until you have been pushed passed your limits and attempted to constrain him... well there is no testing your resolve to allow him to do whatever he wants... he is limited by his love and respect for you.... as you have stated.

We can talk airy fairy crap of having "similar limits" and "love and respect", but the fact of the matter is he does not make your limits... they exist with or without him. And if he exceeds your limits enough, you will cry "uncle" and leave.

Edited to add,... I hope this does not sound harsh.. it is just that I think of limits as something we inherently have these days... I do not make my limits, they just exist.

julia this is exactly how i see limits, thank you for putting it so succinctly. Limits = can't go any further, not from lack or want perhaps, but rather for lack of ability (physical, emotional, mental, etc) . i sometimes sit in wonderment when i read these threads which seem to surface every month on limits because to me it is so obvious that i can't understand why it's not understood.

Bottom line is no limits sub/slaves like the romantic ideal, the feeling of power it gives them, or perhaps superiority - kinda like proclaiming - my love is so deep i will be wonderwoman for you, we will be so close, i will be so owned nothing will stop me from serving you. Nice fantasy fodder but thats about all it's good for. Real people, living with their feet planted in reality, realize their limits and aren't afraid to admit to them.

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Post #: 88

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/29/2007 10:06:53 AM

IrishMist

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Yep, I have to agree with Julia on this too.

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Post #: 89

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/29/2007 10:11:35 AM

juliaoceania

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Punishment is not a part of our dynamic. Either I submit, or he seriously questions my desire to do so. He does not play games with what limits me, nor with his orders. He fully expects me to comply with what he tells me to do, failure to do so could mean the end of our dynamic

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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Post #: 90

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/29/2007 10:14:41 AM

juliaoceania

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quote:

Real people, living with their feet planted in reality, realize their limits and aren't afraid to admit to them.

I suppose the older I get, the more aware I become that I am very limited in many ways in this physical reality... it took becoming unlimited in a spiritual sense to make me more aware of how physically limited I am... call it a fence, a wall, reality... it is what it is.. and I have no shame about it

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 11/29/2007 10:15:13 AM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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Post #: 91

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/29/2007 10:22:08 AM

Stephann

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From: Portland, OR
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Punishment is not a part of our dynamic. Either I submit, or he seriously questions my desire to do so. He does not play games with what limits me, nor with his orders. He fully expects me to comply with what he tells me to do, failure to do so could mean the end of our dynamic

I suppose the older I get, the more aware I become that I am very limited in many ways in this physical reality... it took becoming unlimited in a spiritual sense to make me more aware of how physically limited I am... call it a fence, a wall, reality... it is what it is.. and I have no shame about it

I mentioned before, my intention isn't to suggest my approach is any more right, valid, or better than anyone elses. I don't think anyone should feel ashamed to use whatever tools they have, or to establish whatever boundaries in whatever fashion that is important to them.

Punishment and discipline is an important part of my dynamic with charlotte, not so much with Tigrita. One of the biggest hurdls with charlotte was to illustrate that, as a perfectionist, she needed to understand that she won't always do things right, perfectly, or up to my standards, and that when that happens it's not the end of the world. Learning to let go of what she perceives as failures is difficult; punishment, for her, is a means of releasing her angst, and prevents her from punishing herself far more severely, mentally and emotionally, than I ever could. It gives structure for her when there are issues she cannot overcome, and lets her know thats he is loved and valued, even when she occasionally cannot comply with my wishes. I hardly consider that aspect of our dynamic to be even remotely 'a game.'

Again, I don't expect anyone to think my method is right for them; I do expect that my method is right for me.

Stephan

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

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Post #: 92

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/29/2007 10:23:22 AM

laurell3

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All right, damn it, I'm making a new hard limit of reading any thread on limits!

To the OP:
In my opinion, abandonment/ignoring is a perfectly legitimate hard limit and while there are some that make a long laundry list of hard limits of things they haven't tried and know nothing about (and I think that actually may not be a bad thing to do starting out in the lifestyle when you are unsure of yourself and getting your feet wet safely and comfortably), this one is the type of thing that one should listen to and people just know about themselves from everyday life. To say any hard limit is contrary to submission in general is a bit silly. It may be contrary to what you want from a submissive, but does any one hard limit defeat the concept of submission? Of course not.

I have very few hard limits left on my laundry list. I will do many things that I may not like and even really dislike to please another, however, with regard to my hard limits remaining, I expect those I am with to adhere to and not push at them. In my opinion hard limits in no way indicate any compromise in my trust of my partner. I am picky about whom I submit to and I wouldn't be there if I didn't trust them completely. Hard limits are a tool, a way to communicate to them that I feel very strongly about not doing these things and have good reason why I can't go there.

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Post #: 93

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/29/2007 10:24:39 AM

IrishMist

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quote:

Punishment is not a part of our dynamic. Either I submit, or he seriously questions my desire to do so. He does not play games with what limits me, nor with his orders. He fully expects me to comply with what he tells me to do, failure to do so could mean the end of our dynamic

I think that this is why I have a hard time understanding others when they talk about punishment for not following orders or something. My relationships were always pretty much like this...either obey or leave...no punishment, only two choices...real simple.

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Post #: 94

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/29/2007 10:31:27 AM

IrishMist

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quote:

All right, damn it, I'm making a new hard limit of reading any thread on limits!

Ummm Laurell

You know of course that, umm...this limit will be pushed

Right?

LOL

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Post #: 95

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/29/2007 10:38:44 AM

MsBearlee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

….
I've given her an instruction she is incapable, for whatever reason, of obeying. Because she has disobeyed, she is punished. This is directly in contention with our traditional concept of limits. Usually, if a slave says "I have a hard limit of being beaten with tomatoes" and I beat that slave with tomatoes, I am violating her trust in me and risk ending the relationship. If I punish her for failing to comply with a hard limit, I am seen as disrespecting her.

Yet if I punish her for failing to obey an obviously impossible instruction, I'm using an old tool to illustrate that a slave or submissive (in my relationships anyway) may be punished for any reason, at any time, or for no reason at all. This isn't me disrespecting her; it's my reminding her of her position, as a slave/submissive.

OMG This is perfect! I just asked Michael if I could quote him for a new discussion on punishment…and here it is! Stephann, you have completely changed my direction regarding ‘punishment’…which in the past would have been in agreement with julia:

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Punishment is not a part of our dynamic. Either I submit, or he seriously questions my desire to do so. He does not play games with what limits me, nor with his orders. He fully expects me to comply with what he tells me to do, failure to do so could mean the end of our dynamic

However, I can totally understand that ‘old tool’ used to illustrate a submissive’s place. Generally I like to play (not role-play…actual beatings, etc) fairly edgy for the pure fun of it. But like so many things (crawling, boot-polishing, gentle humiliation, being fed from the dom/me’s fingers), I totally see how this could be wonderful behavior for putting a submissive into a wonderful headspace.
Perhaps I need to rethink the whole punishment thang!

Thank you, Sir…
Beverly

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This one, as well!

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Post #: 96

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/29/2007 12:18:49 PM

DesFIP

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I have a problem with enforcing headspace as being punishment for wrongdoing. Do you say that you are punishing her for not doing anything wrong? I do understand regular physical use for the purpose of maintaining focus, staying in headspace, but I don't like it linked to failure. Because if he says I'm being punished, I need to know what for in order not to do it again.

In a situation where it is random and not linked to anything, I would become passive, afraid to take any action without a direct order for fear it might bring on a random charge of disobedience. And I would lose trust in someone who was one day punishing me for something that on another day would get approval or not be viewed as wrong.

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Post #: 97

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/29/2007 12:40:43 PM

ownedgirlie

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~ Fast Reply ~

It's been an interesting discussion to read, between Stephan and Juliaoceania, particularly on the heels of trying to push a physical limit last night. I was physically incapable of going further than where I had gone, and yet I continued to push for more. I could not give more, but I did not stop trying. Perhaps tomorrow I can move just one more inch, ya know?

So while I may have physical limitations on my capabilities, I will not simply accept them if it is possible to stretch them. I did not stop what I was doing, saying, "Master I can not do more." I went until he stopped me, even though it made me somewhat ill afterward. (Getting ill is not a limit, btw, I am more than willing to feel crappy and go through a recovery period).

If he told me to fly, well, I'd take up hang gliding

I am not punished for reaching a physical limitation, as long as I do not quit. He decides when enough is enough. If he wants to hold me on the brink for awhile, then that is where I stay.

So yes, we are all limited in our capabilites and abilities. I'll just say that anything I am capable of, or able to do, I will do for him. Since neither he nor I can control the laws of physics, then it is not me who is imposing that limit, it is nature itself. But I personally will not limit giving him what I am capable of.

Maybe that helps the discussion.

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 98

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/29/2007 1:33:33 PM

AquaticSub

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Perhaps I see limits differently because I really don't see limits as applying to scenes and our sex life anymore. Looking back, I don't know if they ever did.

There are things that we don't do because we don't find it interesting or pleasurable, there are things we don't do because I'm not interested and he isn't interested enough to do when I'm not, there are things that we do that I'm not all that keen on but he enjoys them and there are things that he isn't all that keen on but I get rewarded with. And, of course, the things we are both quite keen on.

But the things we don't do are decided more by us making the choice not to go there rather than what I want. We do things now that we didn't used to and I'm sure there are things we don't do now that we will later - but it isn't a question of pushing me.

I see limits as being the things that I require for my health, mental and otherwise and the things that I will not do for moral/ethical reasons. Things where it really doesn't matter if those limits are never questioned or tried, if I'm single, collared or a poly relationship with four partners, they are going to be there all the same.

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Post #: 99

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/29/2007 1:51:31 PM

Tigrita

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From: California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears:
Bottom line is no limits sub/slaves like the romantic ideal, the feeling of power it gives them, or perhaps superiority - kinda like proclaiming - my love is so deep i will be wonderwoman for you, we will be so close, i will be so owned nothing will stop me from serving you. Nice fantasy fodder but thats about all it's good for. Real people, living with their feet planted in reality, realize their limits and aren't afraid to admit to them.

Wow, that is just so beautifully open minded and accepting. No twue way preaching from you babe. Nope, everyone, even those fantasy-concocting, superior, wonder-woman wannabes are so welcome and un-judged in your world.

My gosh, my way of seeing things is just as obvious to me as yours is to you, and I really don't think the bottom line of our ideals is all that different. I'm happy in my relationship, it isn't fantasy fodder, it is very real, and I thought I'd share my opinion on this board in my previous posts for people who might read it and enjoy different perspectives. Putting people down and pigeonholing them just because they see things differently than you is not at all constructive, there may be people reading this discussion who might enjoy seeing both sides and deciding what works for them. Where does judgment fall into that?

_____________________________

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(in reply to velvetears)

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All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: What are legitimate hard limits?

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