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RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/29/2007 2:08:34 PM

phedre81

Posts: 56
Joined: 10/29/2007
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This topic reminds me of the safe word topic, for several reasons.

But what keeps coming to mind is the different definitions people are using of the word limit.

I had understood safe words, within the context of this "lifestyle" to be a sort of contract between a top and bottom, that if the bottom said them (or the top, i suppose, for that matter) the play/scene/power exchange would end immediately. I could understand why in some relationships, people were not comfortable having a word that REQUIRED their top to stop, and I also found it interesting to see that for some people, a safe word didn't mean the top was required to stop--it was simply communication, and the top still had a choice. The top could go on without breaking any sort of trust between the two.

There seems to be a similar difference of usage here. Stephan seems to be saying that there are things he would not do with his girls. But there is no contract between them (unspoken or otherwise) that if he DOES do certain things, they have the "right" to refuse him, or that he has broken some agreement or trust. He is allowed to do whatever he wants. No limits. They can revoke that right, permanently, if they choose, but short of that, have no recourse.

I'm confused by those saying that he isn't recognizing limits in his relationship that exist.

Is there something illegitimate (to use a word I'm weary of) in saying that a sub does not impose any limits upon her top? But only communicates how certain things make her feel and that certain things she believes would damage her? To me, saying "Master I think if you hit me again with that belt, I will be emotionally terrorized" is not at all the same as saying "Master, we have agreed that recieving more than X strokes is a hard limit for me, so you must stop"

Using a limit as a communication tool makes sense to me. And heck, even using it as a sort of contract, something that the top is required to abide by as part of his/her responsibility in the relationship is makes SENSE to me.

But isn't it also valid for Stephan to say that there are no limits imposed upon him by his subs/slaves (sorry, Stephan, not sure how you refer to them)?

Anyway, sorry, rambling, just trying to make sense of the different ideas I'm seeing.

(in reply to AquaticSub)

Post #: 101

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/29/2007 2:09:03 PM

ownedgirlie

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Joined: 2/5/2006
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Aw Tigrita, don't let it get to you. I'm having the time of my life in my romanticized fantasy land, and that's quite ok by me. Just enjoy yours and never mind what is said about it.

(in reply to Tigrita)

Post #: 102

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/29/2007 2:17:30 PM

Stephann

Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
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I'll go a stretch, and say I do understand and agree with velvettears, that there are some individuals who live in a world of fantasy. Of submissives who want to be super submissives. The first woman I collared was one of these rare creatures; inacapable of being pushed to hard, without limits on her ownership, deeply submissive, and a hard core painslut; right up until I told her "go clean the bathroom." On the heels of her tantrum and walking out, she came back. A later joke about a friend she knew being whipped, I gave her one stroke with the belt; only to watch her flop like a fish for thirty seconds on my kitchen floor.

Her 'no limits' fantasy came to a crashing end, and she slammed the door on the way out. Later, she thanked me for yanking her out of her cyberfantasy dreamworld, and went on to have a few real life D/s relationships of varying success.

It works on both sides, though; the dominant who expects a 'no limits' slave, who really means "I want to find out how hard I can push before you scream uncle...then I can prove to you how dominant I really am because I'll push you past the limits you never knew you had!" These fellows remind me of my step-brother yanking the wings off of flies.

See, this is why I have trouble with limits/no limits conversations. I'm not trying to push my girls past their capabilities. I only expect them to trust me with learning where those are, instead of arbitrarily stating "I do dishes, but not windows." charlotte would have told me knifeplay was a hard limit, if I had given her the chance, because she used to be a cutter. Because I didn't, she's had the opportunity to learn new respect and new perspective on what the knife means, why it's used, and how it's used. If it had been ounlined as a hard limit initially, I suspect the entire open conversation about knives, as a hard limit, would have been tainted by unspoken fears of "doesn't he care about me? Why is he making me talk about my hard limit so much? Can't he just accept I said no and let go of it? Is he more interested in hurting me, than learning about me?" Instead, the clear lines of communication we engage in show her I'm not trying to hurt her, I'm simply trying to learn about her, what motivates her, and how can I best encourage her to serve me better. Because we've talked about knives without limits involved, she can now derive pleasure from showing the knife, and it's holder respect; something that might have been impossible otherwise.

DesFIP,

No, I'm not punishing her for not doing anything wrong. I would be punishing her, to demonstrate that if she fails in my expectations, for any reason, she should expect to be punished. That's one of the purposes of punishment, with my slave. It's a dynamic that renders her helpless to defend herself against me. I'm aware that could be seen as incredibly exploitative.

"Some folks want to use you. Some folks want to be used by you."

Having lived through that exact dynamic myself, on the submissive end in the Marines, I see it's intrisic value (and the incredible risk associated.) The question isn't if this is risky or difficult, the question is one of consenting to risky, difficult activities.

I do fully agree, though; I never punish one moment for something, and praise it the next. I am, if anything, consistant and a creature of habit.

Regards,

Stephan

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to Tigrita)

Post #: 103

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/29/2007 4:24:57 PM

LadyJeelys

Posts: 99
Joined: 11/17/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
And, yes, hard limits (or any limits for this matter) are deviations from submission. But, oh well. Submissives are human, too, not necessarily born just to serve, even if they want to as an aspect of their life.

I actually disagree with this assumption. Submission is about giving of self, not just what actions a sub will do. When submissives are open and honest about their limits, they are giving the Dominant not only trust but also giving of self. To me, the very act of sharing, of entrusting, the Dominant with deeply held fears and concerns is submission. Anyone can be hogtied and branded--that's not submission...at lot of masochists would love it while not for a moment being submissive. So, anyway, I don't see that level of honesty and trust as a deviation from submission.

(in reply to CuriousLord)

Post #: 104

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/29/2007 6:19:41 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

So yes, we are all limited in our capabilites and abilities. I'll just say that anything I am capable of, or able to do, I will do for him. Since neither he nor I can control the laws of physics, then it is not me who is imposing that limit, it is nature itself. But I personally will not limit giving him what I am capable of.

Different people have different limits imposed on them that they are born with...

I suppose I see a danger in the line of thinking that people will read "no limits" and seriously let someone shatter them into a million pieces when they absolutely did not have to go there. That has not happened to you, and your Master knows you all too well, but I still see this danger that people will get these romantic notions and not stop someone from seriously damaging them.. some things are limits. Only we as individuals know where those limits are. And some limits are as dangerous to cross as it is for a submissive to jump from an air plane with no parachute.

My Daddy has described to me seeing women he has taught self defense to shatter into a million pieces in front of his eyes, in dissociative states, yes... bones may not be broken by crossing some limits, but sometimes bones heal quicker than the wounds that no one can see.

Edited to add, I do not see all people who think they have no limits as being in fantasyland or overly romantic... just saying that some people will be that way and strive to be no limits out of romantacism...

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 11/29/2007 6:25:52 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 105

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/29/2007 6:29:12 PM

DesFIP

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From: Apple County NY
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Stephann

I understand punishing for failing your expectations if she knew what your expectations were, but the way you wrote it was that she hadn't failed at anything and was punished anyway. Now if you're in a relationship with a sadist, you have to expect to be hurt. But exercising your sadism is not the same as punishment.

Your post made it appear as though you announced she had failed at something but you hadn't told her ahead of time what you wanted, nor did you tell her at the time what she was doing wrong. Only that you felt like punishing her arbitrarily. Which I do understand is emotional sadism but short sighted in the effect upon the sub.

Anyway back to the op. Whether we call them limits or not there are things no moral human being would do simply because a sub told him she couldn't do it. An example being of a sub who ended her relationship because she was a diabetic, and had told him that she needed to eat before playing. He showed up to get her late and refused to take her to dinner first as he had originally agreed. They spent hours at the dungeon with her in increasing distress. Then refused to get her anything to eat, instead just told her to take a bus home despite the fact that she wasn't up to it.

He broke the limit that was caused by her disease, not chosen arbitrarily by her just to annoy him, and endangered her life. Some limits just shouldn't ever be broken.

< Message edited by DesFIP -- 11/29/2007 6:35:04 PM >

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(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 106

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/29/2007 6:38:59 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Punishment is not a part of our dynamic. Either I submit, or he seriously questions my desire to do so. He does not play games with what limits me, nor with his orders. He fully expects me to comply with what he tells me to do, failure to do so could mean the end of our dynamic

I suppose the older I get, the more aware I become that I am very limited in many ways in this physical reality... it took becoming unlimited in a spiritual sense to make me more aware of how physically limited I am... call it a fence, a wall, reality... it is what it is.. and I have no shame about it

I mentioned before, my intention isn't to suggest my approach is any more right, valid, or better than anyone elses. I don't think anyone should feel ashamed to use whatever tools they have, or to establish whatever boundaries in whatever fashion that is important to them.

Punishment and discipline is an important part of my dynamic with charlotte, not so much with Tigrita. One of the biggest hurdls with charlotte was to illustrate that, as a perfectionist, she needed to understand that she won't always do things right, perfectly, or up to my standards, and that when that happens it's not the end of the world. Learning to let go of what she perceives as failures is difficult; punishment, for her, is a means of releasing her angst, and prevents her from punishing herself far more severely, mentally and emotionally, than I ever could. It gives structure for her when there are issues she cannot overcome, and lets her know thats he is loved and valued, even when she occasionally cannot comply with my wishes. I hardly consider that aspect of our dynamic to be even remotely 'a game.'

Again, I don't expect anyone to think my method is right for them; I do expect that my method is right for me.

Stephan

I did not think your intention was to necessarily state that I should be "ashamed" of the way I live. The problem I see with discussions like these is that they end up being a little One Twue Wayish for me... not that this is your intent. Of course you are going to stick by what you believe in, as do I, and in that way we are sticking by our personal One Twue Way.

I know other people have punishment in their dynamic, it just is not in ours. He would not want me if I needed punishment for catharsis. He hits me, it is all about the fun for us, and we do not mix it with other things.. that is HIS limit, not mine. He could could start punishing me tomorrow, although I entered into this relationship thinking that it would never be about punishments... I do not feel I need them.

I think that you assume facts not in evidence when you assume things about a dynamic that employs or does not employ the same tools as you. For you safewords control you, and limits control you... in my Daddy's eyes, I would be topping from the bottom if he had to "punish" me. He does not like punishing people, it means I am making him do something he does not want to do because of my bad behavior... Now I do not think that is the case for all relationships, punishment is indeed a valid tool for some couples. For some couples it is not topping from the bottom... just like using safewords and acknowledging limits is not taking the power away from the dominant either.

Different tools for different dominants....

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 11/29/2007 6:40:40 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 107

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/30/2007 3:17:47 PM

Stephann

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I think that you assume facts not in evidence when you assume things about a dynamic that employs or does not employ the same tools as you.

No, I don't. I've not made any assumptions about your dynamic. In fact, I don't talk at all about your dynamic, in any of my statements. I get the impression that you simply don't understand why or how a dynamic other than yours could work, be healthy, and function, as evidenced below. That's fine, you don't have to.

For you safewords control you, and limits control you... in my Daddy's eyes, I would be topping from the bottom if he had to "punish" me. He does not like punishing people, it means I am making him do something he does not want to do because of my bad behavior... Now I do not think that is the case for all relationships, punishment is indeed a valid tool for some couples. For some couples it is not topping from the bottom... just like using safewords and acknowledging limits is not taking the power away from the dominant either.

Again, you simply don't grasp my view of safewords. I can't spell it out any clearer, so I'm going to leave the dead horse here.

DesFIP,

An interesting thought, but I don't use arbitrary punishment with emotional sadism in mind.

A situation came up where charlotte was instructed to do something by Tigrita. I instructed her to do something else. I explained at the time, that in obeying me, she will be disobeying her. In doing so, she will likely be punished for her disobedience. I explained it to illustrate that she may never use one obligation to defend her from another. It's exactly this sort of situation that, for our punishment dynamic, that reminds her that she can and will be punished. It's something she craves, and works well for all of us. I can see why that might be damaging for other people; I don't have any formal type of punishment dynamic at all with Tigrita (who is submissive to me.) They simply have different needs.

Regards,

Stephan

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 108

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/30/2007 3:30:03 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

No, I don't. I've not made any assumptions about your dynamic.

I said about "a" dynamic... I did not mean mine.

And then you state this quoting me

quote:

I get the impression that you simply don't understand why or how a dynamic other than yours could work, be healthy, and function, as evidenced below. That's fine, you don't have to.

For you safewords control you, and limits control you... in my Daddy's eyes, I would be topping from the bottom if he had to "punish" me. He does not like punishing people, it means I am making him do something he does not want to do because of my bad behavior... Now I do not think that is the case for all relationships, punishment is indeed a valid tool for some couples. For some couples it is not topping from the bottom... just like using safewords and acknowledging limits is not taking the power away from the dominant either.

Actually I have that impression reading you, and I could quote from other threads where you assume all sorts of things about people that use safewords that are huge assumptions in my eyes... but it is a dead horse.

I will say I do not know how you could get the impression from the words that you quoted from me that I do not understand why people would use punishments in their relationships.. I understand all too well, and on some level I can really "get" the cathartic thing, but it is not necessary for me, nor did I seek it in my dominant when I was looking. I also stated punishments are his limit, not my own, and I stated why this was so. I very well understand that dominants employ all sorts of tools to dominate their partners within their personal comfort zone... Go you for finding the tools that work for you and your girls... Go my Daddy for finding what works for him and me... I do not see anywhere that I stated anything different than that... perhaps you could underline exactly what I wrote that gave you an impression other than that, because frankly I am stumped

Edited to add emphasis on this part of my post

quote:

Now I do not think that is the case for all relationships, punishment is indeed a valid tool for some couples. For some couples it is not topping from the bottom... just like using safewords and acknowledging limits is not taking the power away from the dominant either.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 11/30/2007 3:44:18 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 109

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/30/2007 4:04:16 PM

velvetears

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Joined: 6/19/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tigrita

Wow, that is just so beautifully open minded and accepting. No twue way preaching from you babe. Nope, everyone, even those fantasy-concocting, superior, wonder-woman wannabes are so welcome and un-judged in your world.

My gosh, my way of seeing things is just as obvious to me as yours is to you, and I really don't think the bottom line of our ideals is all that different. I'm happy in my relationship, it isn't fantasy fodder, it is very real, and I thought I'd share my opinion on this board in my previous posts for people who might read it and enjoy different perspectives. Putting people down and pigeonholing them just because they see things differently than you is not at all constructive, there may be people reading this discussion who might enjoy seeing both sides and deciding what works for them. Where does judgment fall into that?

i am sure your way of seeing things is obvious to you, never said it wouldn't be for other people. i gave my own pov on how i see no limits sub/slaves. Just as you wanted to share your opinion on this board for others to read and see a different perspective so did i as well - i am wrong and you are not?   There is no judgement in what i said, just my way of seeing it. To believe in something that isn't possible, in my opinion, is not living in reality. i do not believe having no limits is possible, as i see limits - that is perhaps where we differ i don't know. To me this argument usually boils down to semantics.

i also never used the word wannabe - please don't put more words in my mouth then those which i actually spoke. Even vanilla woman can get the wonderwoman complex in thinking she can be everything and do everything and burn out when she realizes she can't.

i am sure many sub/slaves who claim the title of no limits are very devoted and exceptional slaves who make their owners very proud. They probably live in relationships that give them great satisfaction and are very happy in them. That doesn't negate the fact that limits exist for them - they just were lucky enough to find someone who never crossed them or challenged them.

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Post #: 110

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/30/2007 4:42:53 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

i am sure many sub/slaves who claim the title of no limits are very devoted and exceptional slaves who make their owners very proud. They probably live in relationships that give them great satisfaction and are very happy in them. That doesn't negate the fact that limits exist for them -They just were lucky enough to find someone who never crossed them or challenged them.

Sometimes that is true, and sometimes it is not.

I have been posting to this thread knowing that there are two slaves that post here that I have a lot of respect for that have few if any limits... i will not name them, but I know that one of them has no limits.. and she even has stated how lucky she is her owner has them for her. The other wants to push her limits, and her master does all he can to push those limits.. both are happy people.Both have been in their respective relationships for years. I do not like speaking in absolutes about these sorts of things, but in general I do agree with you.. it is easy to claim not to have limits when one sets out to find a person that has the same limits that they do, or will never cross their limits.

I think part of my problem with people that are in such relationships is that it glamorizes having no limits, people read that, and then they want their relationship to be as cool and slavish as what they read.... Everyone is responsible for their own backyard, and those who talk about having no limits are not responsible for anyone reading them, but it does kinda become important to point out that for the most part those who speak of having no limits exist in relationships that do not usually challenge them past their limits... there are exceptions of course. These are people who have intelligently chosen the dynamics that work for them.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to velvetears)

Post #: 111

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/30/2007 4:48:35 PM

Stephann

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From: Portland, OR
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Julia,

See, I totally understand where you (and velvet) are coming from. I think it's wrong to glamorize a dynamic based on romantic notions that aren't grounded in reality.

From where I sit though, I find more often than not the assumption is that when a slave says no limits, she doesn't really know what she's talking about, and that when a dominant says no limits, he must be psychotic, stupid, or dangerous (or both.) A few years back, when I would ask questions about limits, safewords, and the like, I felt like they were rammed down my throat as the only way a healthy relationship can function. As a result, I think there's very little positive light shed on relationships that make use of neither.

Regards,

Stephan

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 112

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/30/2007 4:51:25 PM

Raechard

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http://www.altsubmission.com/limits1.html
I found the above article a good personal insight into this topic when I read it although I don’t see limits as flexible so I don’t personally need to call something a hard limit, but that’s me.

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Post #: 113

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/30/2007 4:55:48 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raechard

http://www.altsubmission.com/limits1.html
I found the above article a good personal insight into this topic when I read it although I don’t see limits as flexible so I don’t personally need to call something a hard limit, but that’s me.

The important part of your post is highlighted... Over my years in this life I have seen very few things that stayed the same... the limits I had at 20 are not the ones I have going on 40. I shudder to think that I would never grow or change in this life... change is inevitable... nothing is static. Life is dynamic. I think people should rethink what they believe their limits to be on a regular basis...

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Raechard)

Post #: 114

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/30/2007 5:02:55 PM

charlotte12

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

i am sure many sub/slaves who claim the title of no limits are very devoted and exceptional slaves who make their owners very proud. They probably live in relationships that give them great satisfaction and are very happy in them. That doesn't negate the fact that limits exist for them -They just were lucky enough to find someone who never crossed them or challenged them.

Sometimes that is true, and sometimes it is not.

I have been posting to this thread knowing that there are two slaves that post here that I have a lot of respect for that have few if any limits... i will not name them, but I know that one of them has no limits.. and she even has stated how lucky she is her owner has them for her. The other wants to push her limits, and her master does all he can to push those limits.. both are happy people.Both have been in their respective relationships for years. I do not like speaking in absolutes about these sorts of things, but in general I do agree with you.. it is easy to claim not to have limits when one sets out to find a person that has the same limits that they do, or will never cross their limits.

I think part of my problem with people that are in such relationships is that it glamorizes having no limits, people read that, and then they want their relationship to be as cool and slavish as what they read.... Everyone is responsible for their own backyard, and those who talk about having no limits are not responsible for anyone reading them, but it does kinda become important to point out that for the most part those who speak of having no limits exist in relationships that do not usually challenge them past their limits... there are exceptions of course. These are people who have intelligently chosen the dynamics that work for them.

I completely get where you are coming from. Thus i generally understand the rush to clarify that "no limits" is most likely not grounded in reality. I do not have respect for people who claim to have no limits and attempt to lord it over others as thus being more "slavey." But then, in my mind a slave would not have such a bratty attitude to begin with.

I guess i also believe that it is important to have all the differing views out there. Sometimes it can seem like the lifestyle becomes overrun with people who are living mainly in a fantasy land and i applaud those that get out there to show otherwise. But i also would like to point out that for someone like myself who views these things on a different extreme it can sometimes be daunting to read threads in which a view like mine is generally shoved aside into the "fantasy" realm. I feel it's important for both sides to be heard so that the few people who might approach a "no limits" relationship from a healthy perspective are not left wondering if they're completely alone.

But i guess sometimes i assume that others reading will not get the impression that i consider myself to be a better slave than others or will try to copy my lifestyle. I wouldn't in fact reccomend it to most. It is simply what makes me happy.

Thank you for that last post though. I think it was important that that was said.

charlotte

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(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 115

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/30/2007 5:14:18 PM

Raechard

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From: S.E. London U.K.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raechard

http://www.altsubmission.com/limits1.html
I found the above article a good personal insight into this topic when I read it although I don’t see limits as flexible so I don’t personally need to call something a hard limit, but that’s me.

The important part of your post is highlighted... Over my years in this life I have seen very few things that stayed the same... the limits I had at 20 are not the ones I have going on 40. I shudder to think that I would never grow or change in this life... change is inevitable... nothing is static. Life is dynamic. I think people should rethink what they believe their limits to be on a regular basis...

Yes I think what you are saying is similar to the author of the article I mentioned. Myself I call what others call hard limits just limits. She was saying that as she trusted her master more what she had previously considered a hard limit wasn’t a limit anymore. So I am saying it’s important to distinguish between limits and just things you aren’t keen on trying. Using terms such as hard limits does not seem to help make that distinction. To me a true limit is a limit and needs no magnitude of limit. I

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Post #: 116

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/30/2007 5:14:22 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

From where I sit though, I find more often than not the assumption is that when a slave says no limits, she doesn't really know what she's talking about, and that when a dominant says no limits, he must be psychotic, stupid, or dangerous (or both.) A few years back, when I would ask questions about limits, safewords, and the like, I felt like they were rammed down my throat as the only way a healthy relationship can function. As a result, I think there's very little positive light shed on relationships that make use of neither.

I do not make assumptions about people that believe they have no limits. I define limits differently, and I make observations about people that state they have no limits and what they say about their own relationships. Mostly I read that people without limits find dominants that either share their limits or that they know they will not be damaged by the dominant... The two slaves I mentioned in my last post deviate from what the no limits slaves I read usually say about their relationships... they have taught me a lot about the concept and that there is no universals here... These two are willing to have their limits exceeded by their masters, for different reasons, but still they are willing to... and they have shown this in the course of their dynamics. I consider these two well balanced and happy.

I do not care if people can see how our relationship can be positive because we use certain tools they chose not to employ... after all, our personal happiness is all that motivates me. Perhaps if these people had not shoved their beliefs on to you then you would be more open minded about people that live differently than you, and how their relationships can incorporate tools that you snub in a positive way. I would try to change your mind about that, but you know, your opinion is yours and it really has no significance in my life.

You know, there are lots of people that have vanilla relationships that used to make me envious, not because I wanted that relationship structure, but because the participants were happy... and really that is all any of us want is happiness. If it makes you and yours happy then that is all that really matters. I think it is odd that someone projects what makes them happy on to the rest of the world... I mean there are many happy vanillas in trusting relationships that do not punish, use safewords, or try to deny their partner's limits... I talked to this old couple I know at work yesterday.... been married since 1949, and they have never had an argument... completely in love they are. It does not work for me, but hey... it is working for them

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 11/30/2007 5:15:53 PM >

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(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 117

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/30/2007 5:23:13 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

Thank you for that last post though. I think it was important that that was said.

You are very welcome

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Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to charlotte12)

Post #: 118

RE: What are legitimate hard limits? - 11/30/2007 5:31:39 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

So I am saying it’s important to distinguish between limits and just things you aren’t keen on trying. Using terms such as hard limits does not seem to help make that distinction. To me a true limit is a limit and needs no magnitude of limit. I

I think the most important thing about limits is communication.

It has been almost two years since my Daddy and I had our initial conversation about "limits", and I wanted to bring out my laundry list like a good little "subbie" (I hate that word..lol) and check off the list of what I would and would not do.

He stopped me when I started going down this long list, and I even skipped the entire "murder is a limit, kidnapping is a limit" because to me that went without saying. He just simply stated, "Here is the way we will take it if we ever go there, I will simply ask your consent before I do anything new to you... and once you consent, then it will always be forever something I can do". Wisely he did not allow a huge list of limits that had to be "crossed" to exist between us like a wall, but he still allowed for me to have anything I needed as a limit.. and then we met some months later and he at first would ask before he would do something new. He then quit asking me if he could do new things, and just did them, I do not have an official list of limits out there. Technically I suppose I could say I have none, but I know I do have them, he just has not crossed them.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Raechard)

Post #: 119

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