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Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 11/30/2007 9:05:44 PM

TheHeretic

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Apologies if this topic made it through here without my noticing, but I find this a bit inappropriate. I'd go so far as to call it the end of his presidential campaign.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/anthem.asp

Please don't tell me the only people who would be bothered by this are "rascists" who wouldn't vote for him anyway.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

Post #: 1

RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 11/30/2007 9:19:35 PM

SugarMyChurro

Posts: 1912
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I will stand for the pledge, but I don't say it nor do I hold my hand over my heart. Never have, never will.

This is all bullshit anyway - if you consider this issue important then your priorities are completely upside-down.

This country may very well be in a post-constitutional era, and if so all the flag-waving and hand-wringing in the world won't save it.

-----

FWIW, there's almost no way I will waste a vote on Obama or Hillary anyway. I simply don't believe this country is ready for either of those two candidates. And yes, by which I mean a woman and/or an African-American man. Hillary also has too much history and Obama too little.

< Message edited by SugarMyChurro -- 11/30/2007 9:23:07 PM >

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 2

RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 11/30/2007 9:22:13 PM

laurell3

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My father died in VietNam. The United States flag has paticular significance for what he gave his life for and what the men currently are fighting for in our country. Ask them. While I may not agree with our current administration, I do believe in this country and will support and salute our flag.

< Message edited by laurell3 -- 11/30/2007 9:23:50 PM >

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)

Post #: 3

RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 11/30/2007 9:22:45 PM

TheHeretic

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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

I will stand for the pledge, but I don't say it nor do I hold my hand over my heart. Never have, never will.

But you aren't trying to become the Chief Executive of the nation symbolized by a flag he chooses not to show appropriate, legal, respect for.

I already know I wouldn't vote for you, Sugar.

add: It was the National Anthem, not the Pledge.

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 11/30/2007 9:24:05 PM >

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)

Post #: 4

RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 11/30/2007 9:26:48 PM

SugarMyChurro

Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
...chooses not to show appropriate, legal, respect for.

That law is most likely unconstitutional, but I suspect it would never be declared as such. You can't make people worship an object nor force them to make any kind of pledges or oaths. That much is long-standing common law.

But keep worrying about the minutiae, what difference does it make anyway?

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 5

RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 11/30/2007 9:31:11 PM

juliaoceania

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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It may cost him the presidential race, I mean people were dumb enough to not support Dean because he made one weird noise...

I do not salute the flag because I do not pledge allegiance because of spiritual reasons.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 6

RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 11/30/2007 9:31:25 PM

SugarMyChurro

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quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3
My father died in VietNam.

Yeah, let's confuse one issue with another...

Dying in a resource war isn't noble, it's a shame. Not for the men doing the dying, but for the country that sends them.

(in reply to laurell3)

Post #: 7

RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 11/30/2007 9:32:24 PM

laurell3

Posts: 6577
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

I will stand for the pledge, but I don't say it nor do I hold my hand over my heart. Never have, never will.

But you aren't trying to become the Chief Executive of the nation symbolized by a flag he chooses not to show appropriate, legal, respect for.

I already know I wouldn't vote for you, Sugar.

add: It was the National Anthem, not the Pledge.

Well yeah but for various reasons even before this I wouldn't vote for him, although...Hilary could embroider a flag in gold and I wouldn't vote for her......not alot of choices between the many evils...omg...am I talking politics here...damn it....

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 8

RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 11/30/2007 9:34:23 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
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quote:

Well yeah but for various reasons even before this I wouldn't vote for him, although...Hilary could embroider a flag in gold and I wouldn't vote for her......not alot of choices between the many evils...omg...am I talking politics here...damn it....

I would never vote for Hillary either, although Obama was a possible contender for my vote if he won the primary.

I am a Dennis Kucinich sorta gal... although since the democrats will not support him my vote will likely be cast for a Green or some other third party

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to laurell3)

Post #: 9

RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 11/30/2007 9:34:38 PM

laurell3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3
My father died in VietNam.

Yeah, let's confuse one issue with another...

Dying in a resource war isn't noble, it's a shame. Not for the men doing the dying, but for the country that sends them.

LOL Sugar it's a good thing I know you just bait and say ridiculous things to get a response, because that's just silly. It is noble that he gave his life at 19. It's unfortunate how the administration handled it, but what he did was very noble. There's not a thing in the world you or anyone else anywhere can say to make me think otherwise.

< Message edited by laurell3 -- 11/30/2007 9:38:39 PM >

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)

Post #: 10

RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 11/30/2007 9:35:30 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
...chooses not to show appropriate, legal, respect for.

That law is most likely unconstitutional, but I suspect it would never be declared as such. You can't make people worship an object nor force them to make any kind of pledges or oaths. That much is long-standing common law.

But keep worrying about the minutiae, what difference does it make anyway?

Right. That's why you don't go to jail for it. It's enough to cover my ass though, when I "spill" a quart of soda on the guy who doesn't take his hat off for the Anthem before a ballgame.

Again, you are not trying to become the international representative of that flag. Obama is.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)

Post #: 11

RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 11/30/2007 9:37:28 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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Service is honorable...

It is the bastards that send them into harm's way that are dishonorable.

The thing is that they either draft em, lie to em, or bribe em to to get them in... and then they use them as cannon fodder... and it is the American people that do not hold their leaders responsible for squandering our children's lives that are the bottom line as to why it happens.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to laurell3)

Post #: 12

RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 11/30/2007 9:38:08 PM

laurell3

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Joined: 5/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Service is honorable...

It is the bastards that send them into harm's way that are dishonorable.

The thing is that they either draft em, lie to em, or bribe em to to get them in... and then they use them as cannon fodder... and it is the American people that do not hold their leaders responsible for squandering our children's lives that are the bottom line as to why it happens.

Agreed.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 13

RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 11/30/2007 9:40:05 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

Right. That's why you don't go to jail for it. It's enough to cover my ass though, when I "spill" a quart of soda on the guy who doesn't take his hat off for the Anthem before a ballgame.

How lovely of you to assault people for their religious beliefs... and here I thought the reason we were so proud of being American's is because we respected each others beliefs... how silly of me.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 14

RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 11/30/2007 9:41:25 PM

dcnovice

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More about this at the Fact Checker blog of the Washington Post.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to juliaoceania)

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RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 11/30/2007 9:43:59 PM

GoddessMine

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Joined: 9/27/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

Well yeah but for various reasons even before this I wouldn't vote for him, although...Hilary could embroider a flag in gold and I wouldn't vote for her......not alot of choices between the many evils...omg...am I talking politics here...damn it....

I would never vote for Hillary either, although Obama was a possible contender for my vote if he won the primary.

I am a Dennis Kucinich sorta gal... although since the democrats will not support him my vote will likely be cast for a Green or some other third party

I feel the same as you.

As an aside: I am NOT baiting here, but I've seen pictures and videos, and of course stories from My perfect guy, of dead/dying soldiers and it is NOT noble. Perhaps symbolically, but it's some of the saddest and sickening sights ever.

Love,
GM

< Message edited by GoddessMine -- 11/30/2007 9:44:58 PM >

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Pleasure of the Text? Pleasure of the Goddess, more like it.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

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RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 11/30/2007 9:46:29 PM

GoddessMine

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Joined: 9/27/2007
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Also, because of those horrors, it's why, despite placing their hand over their heart for the anthem or pledge, many Marines are bitter as fuck. So ultimately, the hand over the heart gesture can be just that - meaningless posturing.

Love,
GM

< Message edited by GoddessMine -- 11/30/2007 9:47:03 PM >

_____________________________

Pleasure of the Text? Pleasure of the Goddess, more like it.

(in reply to GoddessMine)

Post #: 17

RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 11/30/2007 9:50:48 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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You know, I always find it amusing when people wear the flag on their clothing or jewelry....because of this reason

quote:

The Flag Code, which formalizes and unifies the traditional ways in which we give respect to the flag, also contains specific instructions on how the flag is not to be used. They are:
The flag should never be dipped to any person or thing. It is flown upside down only as a distress signal.

The flag should not be used as a drapery, or for covering a speakers desk, draping a platform, or for any decoration in general. Bunting of blue, white and red stripes is available for these purposes. The blue stripe of the bunting should be on the top.

The flag should never be used for any advertising purpose. It should not be embroidered, printed or otherwise impressed on such articles as cushions, handkerchiefs, napkins, boxes, or anything intended to be discarded after temporary use. Advertising signs should not be attached to the staff or halyard

The flag should not be used as part of a costume or athletic uniform, except that a flag patch may be used on the uniform of military personnel, fireman, policeman and members of patriotic organizations.

The flag should never have placed on it, or attached to it, any mark, insignia, letter, word, number, figure, or drawing of any kind.

The flag should never be used as a receptacle for receiving, holding, carrying, or delivering anything.
When the flag is lowered, no part of it should touch the ground or any other object; it should be received by waiting hands and arms. To store the flag it should be folded neatly and ceremoniously. The flag should be cleaned and mended when necessary. When a flag is so worn it is no longer fit to serve as a symbol of our country, it should be destroyed by burning in a dignified manner.

http://www.usflag.org/flagetiquette.html

I may not salute it, but I do not disrespect it either... so many people do... and these are the very same ones that will be slamming Obama.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 18

RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 11/30/2007 9:51:46 PM

laurell3

Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessMine

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

Well yeah but for various reasons even before this I wouldn't vote for him, although...Hilary could embroider a flag in gold and I wouldn't vote for her......not alot of choices between the many evils...omg...am I talking politics here...damn it....

I would never vote for Hillary either, although Obama was a possible contender for my vote if he won the primary.

I am a Dennis Kucinich sorta gal... although since the democrats will not support him my vote will likely be cast for a Green or some other third party

I feel the same as you.

As an aside: I am NOT baiting here, but I've seen pictures and videos, and of course stories from My perfect guy, of dead/dying soldiers and it is NOT noble. Perhaps symbolically, but it's some of the saddest and sickening sights ever.

Love,
GM

I guess you don't quite understand. If you think I actually wanted my father to die when I was 2 and never have known him, you would be quite mistaken. I agree anyone that dies in a war is a complete tragedy and trust me at 22 you don't come close to seeing as much of it as I have or living with the consequences. His act of volunteering for his country and going to war, however was a noble act. To say our soliders are not noble and brave regardless of what the administration does, is just foolish.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to GoddessMine)

Post #: 19

RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 11/30/2007 9:53:05 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Service is honorable...

It is the bastards that send them into harm's way that are dishonorable.

The thing is that they either draft em, lie to em, or bribe em to to get them in... and then they use them as cannon fodder... and it is the American people that do not hold their leaders responsible for squandering our children's lives that are the bottom line as to why it happens.

Well said Julia! I would add neither do they support them when they come back. Agent orange, DU!

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to juliaoceania)

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