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RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 12/1/2007 7:55:35 AM   
LilMinxy1


Posts: 114
Joined: 11/28/2007
Status: offline 		So these soldiers are just monsters who have volunteered to kill people?  None of them truly believe that they have joined to protect our rights and freedoms, including the freedom of speech we are all so freely using?  But thats not even my real question.  My real question is, if another country attacks ours, on our soil, are you going to stand in front of these monsters?  Or are you going to cower behind them and thank god they've been trained to use that rifle?  I personally, will pull out my rifle and stand next to them.  No, I'm not military, and I dont agree with the war, but if no one signed up to take orders from the government, no one would be here to protect us if it came here. 

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 12/1/2007 8:00:39 AM   
DesertRat


Posts: 2774
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: NM/USA
Status: offline 		~fr~

I don't do flags, pledges, or anthems. I don't think less of those who do, but it doesn't earn them any extra 'esteem' points with me. It means nothing to me.

Bob


< Message edited by DesertRat -- 12/1/2007 8:07:32 AM >

_____________________________

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RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 12/1/2007 8:01:59 AM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

There is a difference between accidently spilling something on someone and intentionally doing so.... and the key is in the first part of my post... intention-ally.....the intent is everything.




       And such is the case with what causes a soda to spill.  The difference between someone who is unable to participate because of a personal commitment to God, vs someone expressing blatant disrespect because they figure they can get away with it.  The intent is everything.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 12/1/2007 8:10:18 AM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

There is a difference between accidently spilling something on someone and intentionally doing so.... and the key is in the first part of my post... intention-ally.....the intent is everything.




     And such is the case with what causes a soda to spill.  The difference between someone who is unable to participate because of a personal commitment to God, vs someone expressing blatant disrespect because they figure they can get away with it.  The intent is everything.


The point is this, you have stated here point blank that you spill soda on people that you do not like because of what you perceive as their disrespect... that makes you an admitted law breaker... unless you are just an internet warrior that enjoys talking smack on the internet, yet would never actually carry out the attacks you speak of in real life....

I suppose those PETA people who throw red paint at fur wearing assholes did it by "accident" too... well, they had the balls to be arrested for their statement and did not hide behind an "accident".... even though I do not care for PETA or their tactics... they at least have cojones

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 12/1/2007 8:24:39 AM   
DesertRat


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From: NM/USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
The Hard Left, and those who court them, need to remember that the Flag is sacred to more than just right-wing, sadistic assholes, such as myself.


Good point. It's also "sacred" to cowardly, passive-aggressive bullies, such as....

Bob

_____________________________

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro--Hunter S. Thompson
It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide!--Chief Dead St. Knockout, 1933, Liverpool
Damn the crops. I'll only find peace at the end of a rope.--Winston Van Loo, 1911

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RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 12/1/2007 8:37:34 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

The point is this, you have stated here point blank that you spill soda on people that you do not like because of what you perceive as their disrespect... that makes you an admitted law breaker...



        Since the recipients of any such 'accidents' would already be in violation of federal law, it would be more a vigilante action, really.  I'd probably run with a "Fighting Words" sort of defense, worst case, and look for a jury nullification.  Or pay the fine as money well spent.

      

        

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 12/1/2007 8:39:04 AM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

The point is this, you have stated here point blank that you spill soda on people that you do not like because of what you perceive as their disrespect... that makes you an admitted law breaker...



       Since the recipients of any such 'accidents' would already be in violation of federal law, it would be more a vigilante action, really.  I'd probably run with a "Fighting Words" sort of defense, worst case, and look for a jury nullification.  Or pay the fine as money well spent.

     

       


What federal law makes people do things at gaming events? I am lost there.. please cite it the code for me


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 12/1/2007 8:41:38 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		       It's quoted in the OP link, Julia. 

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 12/1/2007 8:51:12 AM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

      It's quoted in the OP link, Julia. 


I think you need to present case law that states the penalty for not standing for the national anthem...

The words should are used throughout that section, not must.


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 12/1/2007 9:03:08 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


I think you need to present case law that states the penalty for not standing for the national anthem... 



    From what we've seen in this thread, you wouldn't bother to read it anyway.

    Tell me, did you ever run across concepts such as group discipline, or the enforcement of cultural norms, on your way to that anthropology degree?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 12/1/2007 9:05:17 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

quote:

NG
Yes, soldiers do not make policy, but are they robots who can't think for themselves?

This argument is both silly and illogical.
It is true that most soldiers sign away their rights to think for themselves



My sympathies lie with the millions of people who are displaced and have to flee, with those people who suffer the hunger, the lack of sanitation, the children who lose mothers and fathers and have to fend for themselves and find food in streets turned to rubble, with the mothers who lose a husband and can't find food for their children because the place has been decimated and they have no money, with those who have to live under an occupying force, with those with lives reduced to a bare subsistence.

Silly and illogical? You've just agreed with me. They make the decision to act as the government's servants. A wise man would understand that being the government's servants in the US army = deployment to an Iraq, or an Afghanistan, or a Vietnam. Volunteering is a choice, it's their reponsibility to understand the consequences. I have zero sympathy for the soldiers in Iraq.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

but look where we would be if a committee had to be convinced before any military action took place.



In a democracy, perhaps? Are you advocating dictats from the top?

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

I am also surprised you continue a "debate" with someone who is describing a family loss.



You'll cope.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 12/1/2007 9:06:57 AM   
juliaoceania


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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


I think you need to present case law that states the penalty for not standing for the national anthem... 



   From what we've seen in this thread, you wouldn't bother to read it anyway.

   Tell me, did you ever run across concepts such as group discipline, or the enforcement of cultural norms, on your way to that anthropology degree?


So basically you are using the Scarlett Letter Defense... hmmm... some parts of our culture stand up for the flag and the anthem, others do not.... more importantly, we have laws to protect those who do not, and that is an important cultural value in and of itself.

I read that law very thoroughly, and researched its meaning, and you just do not like the fact that it is not fed law that we have to stand for any damned thing in this country... you do not like our freedoms, go to China


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 12/1/2007 9:14:48 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		      Thanks for your research opinion on the law.  I was asking a question about anthroplogy though.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 12/1/2007 9:21:13 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LilMinxy1

None of them truly believe that they have joined to protect our rights and freedoms



They quite probably do, but when was the last time the United States was attacked by another nation? Do you live your life on the off chance that something will happen that has never happened in the past, and there is no evidence to suggest that that something will happen in the future?

quote:

ORIGINAL: LilMinxy1

including the freedom of speech we are all so freely using? 



When was the last time an Iraqi attempted to close down your discussion?

quote:

ORIGINAL: LilMinxy1

are you going to stand in front of these monsters?  Or are you going to cower behind them and thank god they've been trained to use that rifle? 



If a foreign nation attacked my country, I'd volunteer; mind you, I probably wouldn't have an option because I'd be conscripted. There's far more justification for being the defending force, than the occupying force. There's a heavy burden of proof required for this organised violence that we're discussing, and it doesn't exist in relation to Iraq etc.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LilMinxy1

No, I'm not military, and I dont agree with the war, but if no one signed up to take orders from the government, no one would be here to protect us if it came here. 



As said, your reason for supporting the enlisting doesn't exist: no one is going to invade the US.


_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 12/1/2007 9:36:56 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		The snopes article also said "Senator Barack Obama, Governor Bill Richardson, Senator Hillary
           Clinton and Ruth Harkin stand during the national anthem. Barack
           Hussein Obama's photo (that's his real name)......the article said
           he REFUSED TO NOT ONLY PUT HIS HAND ON HIS HEART DURING THE PLEDGE
           OF ALLEGIANCE, BUT REFUSED TO SAY THE PLEDGE.....how in the hell can
           a man like this expect to be our next Commander-in-Chief???? "

Did you read the article thoroughly?




quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

       Actually, the photo has nothing to do with the Pledge, much less who wrote it.  It was taken during the playing of the National Anthem.  The article also quotes relevant code.

      Are you sure you clicked on the same thing?


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RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 12/1/2007 9:40:09 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		NG - you seem to have a dual opinion on the military; where the military are defending, they are good - and where they are attacking, they are evil? More than this indeed, that individual soldiers are good when they volunteer to defend, and morally suspect when ordered to attack?

What this ignores is that to deter an attack on a nation, that nation must be able to defend itself. And to defend itself, it must have soldiers who are prepared to risk hardship, injury and death in that defence. The preparedness to sacrifice oneself for one's friends, and by extension in this circumstances one's nation, is I would suggest a noble act and worthy of respect. Indeed, for you to hold that it is not would be to render you subject to the very charges you lay against soldiers by way of your own apparent willingness to volunteer to defend our nation.

Where the difficulties arise in our current system, is in what constitutes "defending our nation". Where we are attacked on our own ground, clearly our retatalitation constitutes defence. What is less clear as defence though, is where we choose to use our military overseas to defend ourselves. Where it is most obscure, and pretty much indefensible is where our military is used to defend "our interests" - which are usually commercial interests.

The problem we have though, is that a person volunteering for military service has little choice whether he/she will be employed in clear defence, less clear defence or totally obscure defence as defined by the above. His/her intention may be to defend, but it is the decision of government as to what form of defence that will be.

Thus the real problem, the real lack of nobility and respect, should go to those who make decisions which do not truly reflect our defence. And this will never change, as long as we have a system which continues and promotes the election to what is absolute power for a short time, of those for whom those decisions are worthwhile.

E 

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RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 12/1/2007 9:50:29 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Apparently y'all haven't spent much time in a crowded theater lately.


There is a difference between accidently spilling something on someone and intentionally doing so.... and the key is in the first part of my post... intention-ally.....the intent is everything.






Accident has nothing to do with it.

People like to recite 'You can't yell fire in a crowded theater', when in fact it is perfectly legal to do so... if the theater is in fact, on fire.

Likewise,  if someone was on fire and you intentionally poured your drink on them, do you think it would be a criminal offense?  Look up mens rea.

There is often a narrow exception to such blanket statements.

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RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 12/1/2007 9:50:38 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Did you read the article thoroughly?




         Obviously, we are having a failure of communication.  The Snopes article clearly states he was photographed with his hands over his dick, instead of his heart, during the national anthem.  An email is contained within the page that claims it was during the pledge.

         There must be more than one email circulating, because the one I recieved before seeking the Snopes verification also said the anthem.

       My comments refer to the facts as presented by Snopes.



_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 12/1/2007 9:55:33 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

quote:

NG
Yes, soldiers do not make policy, but are they robots who can't think for themselves?

This argument is both silly and illogical.
It is true that most soldiers sign away their rights to think for themselves



My sympathies lie with the millions of people who are displaced and have to flee, with those people who suffer the hunger, the lack of sanitation, the children who lose mothers and fathers and have to fend for themselves and find food in streets turned to rubble, with the mothers who lose a husband and can't find food for their children because the place has been decimated and they have no money, with those who have to live under an occupying force, with those with lives reduced to a bare subsistence.


Such is life in our world. Conflict actually reduces population size, brings the fittest to the top (as the smartest and most aggressive will win out for food in a food shortage), and reminds us that war is the last stage in a logical resolution. It should be thought about many times before that action is taken.

quote:


Silly and illogical? You've just agreed with me. They make the decision to act as the government's servants. A wise man would understand that being the government's servants in the US army = deployment to an Iraq, or an Afghanistan, or a Vietnam. Volunteering is a choice, it's their reponsibility to understand the consequences. I have zero sympathy for the soldiers in Iraq.


Such is your choice. The fight for what they personally believe in, as you debate about what you personally believe in. Both of you are exercising your liberties. How are those liberties gained and kept?

quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

but look where we would be if a committee had to be convinced before any military action took place.



In a democracy, perhaps? Are you advocating dictats from the top?


In a military function? Absolutely. Militaries cannot operate by committee. Combat is too fluid for that. The Generals can make whatever plans they wish, but once battle is engaged, quick decisions by those ranking members in combat is what will determine what happens.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

I am also surprised you continue a "debate" with someone who is describing a family loss.


quote:


You'll cope.


Now I agree with this 100%. If someone has had a family loss, and the debate is about something concerning the loss, then they need to stay out of it, if it upsets them. Using emotional injuries as a defense to silence someone else, is still silencing someone else.

Orion

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 12/1/2007 9:57:48 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

NG - you seem to have a dual opinion on the military; where the military are defending, they are good - and where they are attacking, they are evil?



Not at all.

When someone is camped inside your country attempting to convert you to their values, then the only option is to defend. The burden of proof is satisfied by virtue of overt tyranny. When you invade their country, however, the burden of proof for organised violence has not been satisfied.

1) In theory, some soldiers join up to defend the homeland - point taken.
2) In practice, however, the soldiers invade countries and cause widespread misery.
3) Surely the act is not a noble one, regardless of intention.
4) I wonder how many US soldiers simply want "to kick some ass" anywhere.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 80
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