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RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 12/1/2007 3:43:36 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

volunteering for his country and going to war, however was a noble act.  To say our soliders are not noble and brave regardless of what the administration does, is just foolish.



Volunteering to kill people is not a noble act; in fact, it is aiding and abetting tyrannical foreign policy that causes widespread misery to millions of people in countries such as Iraq and Afghanistan. Ultimately, volunteers choose to enlist; they have a duty to estimate the consequences, and they only need to undertake a few days of research to understand that joining the US army in today's climate will involve an attempt to impose US values by force.

This thread supports the claims of those Europeans who view Americans as idealogues on a par with the Russians, Chinese, Iranians etc: a) You back the army unconditionally b) Some of you choose your Presidents on a gesture relating to the National Anthem (I mean, take a moment to reflect on this). You have the military capacity to complement this logic, which makes your country a serious menace.

There's a thread on mental stability somewhere.......it goes "go to church, be a conservative, work hard, and life will be great"....they forgot...."and don't forget to encourage the army to kill a few foreigners along the way".

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to laurell3)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 12/1/2007 3:54:57 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I'm also kind of curious for other posters to educate me about which religions require intentional disrespect to the flag?  I'm not talking about yarmulkes or veils here.  Snarkism?  Superiority Complexianism? 



The religion of individuality, choice, freedom of expression, of seeing a flag as a tool in the government's armoury to enable them to gather the herd.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 12/1/2007 4:01:31 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Holy shit, did I just misread that or do I actually agree with seeksfemslave?

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

How anyone can say the cause in VietNam was noble confuses me.
The only nobility I saw there was in the determination and suffering of the VietNamese people.
As has been pointed out its not the soldiers on the front line who are to blame.Its the misguided (?) policy makers.

I add the ? because it really depends whose aims you are intending to achieve.
War is good business NO?

Wrap everything up in the Flag and Nationalism and bingo.... off we go again.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 12/1/2007 4:11:42 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Wrap everything up in the Flag and Nationalism and bingo.... off we go again.



Seeks, it has been a long, winding, inhospitable road, but, after 8,000 posts, we've finally entered common territory. Either you've been entertaining the ladies, or someone has slipped a tot of brandy in your tea this morning......good to see you lighten up on the right's "we must be strong" message, all the same.


_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 12/1/2007 4:13:19 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		I've noticed that you enjoy sparring with Sugar over legal issues, so maybe there's more going on here than I'm perceiving.  Cuz on the face of it, I don't understand what you're trying to say.  Are you implying that intentionally spilling soda on a stranger ISN'T a crime?  Yeah, laws vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, thanks for reminding us--but are you aware of a jurisdiction where it wouldn't be considered an offense?

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

You do realize that wikipedia is a poor source for legal citation don't you?  Assault, battery and all other similar misdemeanor crimes vary incredibly from state to state.  If you're going to give legal advice on a bdsm forum...at least get it right.

(in reply to laurell3)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 12/1/2007 5:26:24 AM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

volunteering for his country and going to war, however was a noble act.  To say our soliders are not noble and brave regardless of what the administration does, is just foolish.



Volunteering to kill people is not a noble act; in fact, it is aiding and abetting tyrannical foreign policy that causes widespread misery to millions of people in countries such as Iraq and Afghanistan. Ultimately, volunteers choose to enlist; they have a duty to estimate the consequences, and they only need to undertake a few days of research to understand that joining the US army in today's climate will involve an attempt to impose US values by force.

This thread supports the claims of those Europeans who view Americans as idealogues on a par with the Russians, Chinese, Iranians etc: a) You back the army unconditionally b) Some of you choose your Presidents on a gesture relating to the National Anthem (I mean, take a moment to reflect on this). You have the military capacity to complement this logic, which makes your country a serious menace.

There's a thread on mental stability somewhere.......it goes "go to church, be a conservative, work hard, and life will be great"....they forgot...."and don't forget to encourage the army to kill a few foreigners along the way".


I can't begin to fathom how a political debate about other countries viewpoints is actually applicable to my statements. My viewpoint is rather clear.  I believe my father was honorable and noble.  No one can change that viewpoint and no politicial diatribe will effect it. 

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 12/1/2007 5:27:30 AM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I've noticed that you enjoy sparring with Sugar over legal issues, so maybe there's more going on here than I'm perceiving.  Cuz on the face of it, I don't understand what you're trying to say.  Are you implying that intentionally spilling soda on a stranger ISN'T a crime?  Yeah, laws vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, thanks for reminding us--but are you aware of a jurisdiction where it wouldn't be considered an offense?

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

You do realize that wikipedia is a poor source for legal citation don't you?  Assault, battery and all other similar misdemeanor crimes vary incredibly from state to state.  If you're going to give legal advice on a bdsm forum...at least get it right.



Yes.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 12/1/2007 5:38:14 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

volunteering for his country and going to war, however was a noble act.  To say our soliders are not noble and brave regardless of what the administration does, is just foolish.



Volunteering to kill people is not a noble act; in fact, it is aiding and abetting tyrannical foreign policy that causes widespread misery to millions of people in countries such as Iraq and Afghanistan. Ultimately, volunteers choose to enlist; they have a duty to estimate the consequences, and they only need to undertake a few days of research to understand that joining the US army in today's climate will involve an attempt to impose US values by force.

This thread supports the claims of those Europeans who view Americans as idealogues on a par with the Russians, Chinese, Iranians etc: a) You back the army unconditionally b) Some of you choose your Presidents on a gesture relating to the National Anthem (I mean, take a moment to reflect on this). You have the military capacity to complement this logic, which makes your country a serious menace.

There's a thread on mental stability somewhere.......it goes "go to church, be a conservative, work hard, and life will be great"....they forgot...."and don't forget to encourage the army to kill a few foreigners along the way".


I can't begin to fathom how a political debate about other countries viewpoints is actually applicable to my statements. My viewpoint is rather clear.  I believe my father was honorable and noble.  No one can change that viewpoint and no politicial diatribe will effect it. 


It was a fairly apolitical statement, rather than a "political diatribe"; the layers of spin, style, bluff and conditioning are being unravelled when making the statement "volunteering to kill people is not a noble act". If you can't fathom, and you're interested, then asking would shed some light on the matter. As for your father, that's none of my business, but an appeal to emotional sensitivity won't prevent me from making my point.

These "noble" acts are causing widespread misery in foreign lands.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to laurell3)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 12/1/2007 5:44:41 AM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		You aren't going to change my mind on this and I will not argue the point further.  As I have stated before, I don't agree with many things our country's administration has done in the past and is currently doing.  However, soldiers don't make policy and I believe we owe them gratitude and respect for their actions.  I understand you do not.  I won't continue to have the debate with you, because as you already stated, it really is none of your business.  I made a statement about how I feel about my father.  I seriously doubt you can debate how I feel about my father, now can you?

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 12/1/2007 5:59:00 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I've noticed that you enjoy sparring with Sugar over legal issues, so maybe there's more going on here than I'm perceiving.  Cuz on the face of it, I don't understand what you're trying to say.  Are you implying that intentionally spilling soda on a stranger ISN'T a crime?  Yeah, laws vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, thanks for reminding us--but are you aware of a jurisdiction where it wouldn't be considered an offense?

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

You do realize that wikipedia is a poor source for legal citation don't you?  Assault, battery and all other similar misdemeanor crimes vary incredibly from state to state.  If you're going to give legal advice on a bdsm forum...at least get it right.



Yes.


What jurisdiction is this?


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to laurell3)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 12/1/2007 6:01:09 AM   
NorthernGent


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Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

You aren't going to change my mind on this and I will not argue the point further.  As I have stated before, I don't agree with many things our country's administration has done in the past and is currently doing.  However, soldiers don't make policy and I believe we owe them gratitude and respect for their actions.  I understand you do not.  I won't continue to have the debate with you, because as you already stated, it really is none of your business.  I made a statement about how I feel about my father.  I seriously doubt you can debate how I feel about my father, now can you?


Laurell, with all due respect, this appeal to emotional sensitivity is not helpful. My statement applies to the idea of enlisting in the army; if this is too much for you to handle, then move on to the next one.

Yes, soldiers do not make policy, but are they robots who can't think for themselves?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to laurell3)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 12/1/2007 6:04:15 AM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		NG, it's certainly not too much for me to handle, it's just quite apparent you have no intention of letting me have my own opinion on the matter.  As I've stated now FOUR times, I don't believe soldiers are responsible for the administration's policies.  That would quite obviously include enlisting as well.  Now although you are not even from this country, I respect your opinion and realize I will not change it.  Again, you are not going to change mine regardless of how many different spins you put on the same argument. Let it go. 

edited for spelling errors

< Message edited by laurell3 -- 12/1/2007 6:07:05 AM >

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 12/1/2007 6:16:27 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

NG, it's certainly not too much for me to handle, it's just quite apparent you have no intention of letting me have my own opinion on the matter.  As I've stated now FOUR times, I don't believe soldiers are responsible for the administration's policies.  That would quite obviously include enlisting as well.  Now although you are not even from this country, I respect your opinion and realize I will not change it.  Again, you are not going to change mine regardless of how many different spins you put on the same argument. Let it go. 

edited for spelling errors


It appears that we have two very different mindsets.

I like to discuss issues, and I'll chat about them 'til the cows come home, if opinions haven't shifted from beginning to end, then that's no skin off my nose. You appear to want to close this one down before it has even got off the ground, which detracts from the purpose of a discussion, i.e. open things up, possibly learn something.

As for the "you're not even from my country".....that old line of manipulation eh. There'll be plenty more comments on US foreign policy and the conduct of the US army coming from my direction until they retreat to within their own borders, so you're wasting your time with that avenue.

Hopefully, you'll see this for what it is, i.e. the beginning of a discussion, and we can have a decent chat without it degenerating to attempting to shut it down. Otherwise, I'd suggest not reading my posts.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to laurell3)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 12/1/2007 6:22:49 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I've noticed that you enjoy sparring with Sugar over legal issues, so maybe there's more going on here than I'm perceiving.  Cuz on the face of it, I don't understand what you're trying to say.  Are you implying that intentionally spilling soda on a stranger ISN'T a crime?  Yeah, laws vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, thanks for reminding us--but are you aware of a jurisdiction where it wouldn't be considered an offense?

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

You do realize that wikipedia is a poor source for legal citation don't you?  Assault, battery and all other similar misdemeanor crimes vary incredibly from state to state.  If you're going to give legal advice on a bdsm forum...at least get it right.




I suppose part of joining the ranks of the elite with "home ownership" is the loss of self control.

While it may not be a crime as such it certainly would be winnable in court 10 out of 10 times.




_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 12/1/2007 7:04:30 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Actually if you read the article, he has said something that other politicians are too scared to say : "My attitude is that I'm less concerned about what you're wearing on your lapel than what's in your heart. And you show your patriotism by how you treat your fellow Americans, especially those who served. You show your patriotism by being true to our values and our ideals and that's what we have to lead with is our values and our ideals. "

There has been no substantiation of him not saying the pledge of allegiance, though many do not know that pledge was written by a communist, I believe.

Obama at least stands up for what he believes in. I find him to have more integrity than most of the other candidates.


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

      Apologies if this topic made it through here without my noticing, but I find this a bit inappropriate.  I'd go so far as to call it the end of his presidential campaign.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/anthem.asp

     Please don't tell me the only people who would be bothered by this are "rascists" who wouldn't vote for him anyway.


_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 12/1/2007 7:10:27 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Neverneverland.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I've noticed that you enjoy sparring with Sugar over legal issues, so maybe there's more going on here than I'm perceiving.  Cuz on the face of it, I don't understand what you're trying to say.  Are you implying that intentionally spilling soda on a stranger ISN'T a crime?  Yeah, laws vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, thanks for reminding us--but are you aware of a jurisdiction where it wouldn't be considered an offense?

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

You do realize that wikipedia is a poor source for legal citation don't you?  Assault, battery and all other similar misdemeanor crimes vary incredibly from state to state.  If you're going to give legal advice on a bdsm forum...at least get it right.



Yes.


What jurisdiction is this?

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 12/1/2007 7:14:27 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		Apparently y'all haven't spent much time in a crowded theater lately.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 12/1/2007 7:18:26 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		        Actually, the photo has nothing to do with the Pledge, much less who wrote it.  It was taken during the playing of the National Anthem.  The article also quotes relevant code.

       Are you sure you clicked on the same thing?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 12/1/2007 7:38:25 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:

NG
Yes, soldiers do not make policy, but are they robots who can't think for themselves?

This argument is both silly and illogical.
It is true that most soldiers sign away their rights to think for themselves but look where we would be if a committee had to be convinced before any military action took place. No doubt the top brass are consulted as to whether a military action should start.

I am also surprised you continue a "debate" with someone who is describing a family loss.



(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Hmmm. Has this been discussed? - 12/1/2007 7:43:39 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Apparently y'all haven't spent much time in a crowded theater lately.


There is a difference between accidently spilling something on someone and intentionally doing so.... and the key is in the first part of my post... intention-ally.....the intent is everything.




_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 60
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