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RE: The non-lifestyler perspective - 8/16/2005 4:26:25 AM   
ElektraUkM


Posts: 309
Joined: 2/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

Now, when I hear "lifestyler" I get a sense that this includes only those people that place BDSM dynamic as the core to their relationship, are generally more active in the 'scene' in public (not always, but more often), and frankly spend more of their time doing something bdsm related than vanilla related. I also tend to think they have more lifestyle friends than vanilla friends (in general, I might be wrong) and probably reduce the number of vanilla things in their life to incorporate more bdsm. Whether it be participating online, making fetish items as a hobby, going to events and seminars, hosting parties, going on trips to bdsm events --- compared to more vanilla leisure activities that a couple might engage in -- going on a vanilla vacation to Napa, going to vanilla parties or work functions, sharing a hobby like biking or camping.


Yes, this is how I see a lifestyler. That isn't me. I'd rather go cycling or sailing with my partners then hang out in a play dungeon. I would rather enjoy a nice tête-à-tête dinner with a boy then have him eat in a dog dish next to me on the floor. Sure I've been to fetish parties, sure I've been to seminars, out of curiosity. Now and then it can be interesting. But I can only take it in small doses.

This is What it is that I do, not What it is that I am.

- LA


AAkasha and LadyAngelika, you seem in this exchange to be agreeing on what you see as a 'lifestyler', or people living 'the lifestyle'. I'm not quite sure if you really believe this, or are questioning and looking for responses to the idea that the majority of people who post on collarme (or even the majority of people who live 24/7) live like this (or aspire to living like this)?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

I wonder how many people might have difficulty distinguishing a 24/7 relationship dynamic (as in a power exchange relationship) from a 24/7 scene (as in Bondage/Discipline and Sadism/Masochism).

A 24/7 power exchange relationship dynamic is comprised of two (or more) people just being themselves. It's not only possible to live a 24/7 power exchange relationship, for those who are Dominants and submissives (or slaves if you prefer) it is the natural dynamic they seek out and settle into, and it has absolutely nothing to do with whips and chains (or any other prop), nor anything whatsoever to do with a location or venue (such as a dungeon).


This is exactly what I was going to say with regard to 24/7. If you're coming from the side of D/s rather than SM, then 24/7 can very easily be about romantic dinners, sailing, long walks in the countryside and everything else 'vanilla'... because it's not what you do, it's who is in control of what you do and how you do it that matters.

Now I'm not sure whether that brings the two 'sides' (as presented in this thread) closer together, or whether it serves to illuminate another difference that's evident on the boards ~ people into the physical sensations (SM) part of bdsm, and people into the PE part.

~ Elektra

< Message edited by ElektraUkM -- 8/16/2005 4:29:37 AM >

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: The non-lifestyler perspective - 8/16/2005 4:53:43 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		AAkasha, I'm running out the door so this reply will be as concise and brief as possible.

I believe the issue we're both dancing around is that sharing an interest in power exchange relationships, or kinks, or fetishes, or this lifestyle in general, is (quite often) not enough to sustain a rewarding, fulfilling, healthy relationship. It does not guarantee compatibility. And yet, all too frequently, the assumption is that any two lifestylers (again, define it as you like) are perfect for one another.

At it's heart, "this" (particularly the power exchange relationship since it's ongoing, and many B/D S/M practitioners meet only to engage in those activities) is still a relationship, like any lifestyle. And we need fulfillment and compatibility on all the levels inherent to any other lifestyle relationship, not solely the power exchange, kinks or fetishes.

I do hope that makes sense. If not, I'll be back late today.

John[/font]

(in reply to AAkasha)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: The non-lifestyler perspective - 8/16/2005 5:06:18 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I think a lot of other femdoms might find themselves in some odd category that kind of does or does not fit any of this.


Yes that is where I feel right now in all this. As I said early on, this is not about me wanting us to all be alike. I really do appreciate the diversity in the opinions here. However, I do also think that it's important that there be some commonality otherwise it all becomes disjointed.

What I am having difficulty with, and I went through the same thing with the Queer community 5 years ago, is finding where I fit in all this. I dated women and it was all good when there were just women in my life but the moment I fucked a guy, it all turned to shit because then I wasn’t real. I was just a lesbian when it was convenient to me. It took a while for me to figure out that I was just a very open-minded, sexual being.

I am so much more then my kink, just as I am so much more then my sexual identity. I have a career which is actually more like a vocation in the sense that I go speak at conferences in my field, write research papers and develop new applications, I publish and my opinions are sought after by my peers, etc. That is just another facet of my life. But I am not my career.

What I do helps define who I am but I don’t define myself based on what I do.

So why try and label myself? Because unfortunately we live in a world of labels and slogans. We boil everything down to the smallest minutiae. “Just Do It” became the deep philosophy of the 90s. Can I personally live my day to day life without labelling myself? Sure thing. Would I rather take the time and sit with someone and tell them in detail who I am and what I like/need in my life, of course. But sometimes, I don’t feel like being that vulnerable from the get go and therefore a common term or set of terms that would help me define myself in relation to everything else would be a good idea. Also, as you pointed out Akasha, would help “to describe what I seek in a relationship without huge miscommunication”.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to AAkasha)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: The non-lifestyler perspective - 8/16/2005 5:08:05 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

AAkasha and LadyAngelika, you seem in this exchange to be agreeing on what you see as a 'lifestyler', or people living 'the lifestyle'. I'm not quite sure if you really believe this, or are questioning and looking for responses to the idea that the majority of people who post on collarme (or even the majority of people who live 24/7) live like this (or aspire to living like this)?


Perhaps *my definition* of lifestyler and non-lifestyler is not an accurate one. But I think that the way that I defined them in my initial post was precise enough for people to understand where I drew the line of difference. So far, everyone seemed to be able to grapple with that and present very interesting perspectives based on that which, over the course of this thread, is getting me to think about it all.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to ElektraUkM)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: The non-lifestyler perspective - 8/16/2005 5:10:47 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

At it's heart, "this" (particularly the power exchange relationship since it's ongoing, and many B/D S/M practitioners meet only to engage in those activities) is still a relationship, like any lifestyle. And we need fulfillment and compatibility on all the levels inherent to any other lifestyle relationship, not solely the power exchange, kinks or fetishes.


That makes a lot of sense Rover. And though I think that talking about the relationship dynamics between two individuals is worthwhile, I'm not sure how it fits into the original question posed. This isn't a crit, I'm trying to find a logical link because I feel there is something there but I can't put my finger on it.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: The non-lifestyler perspective - 8/16/2005 3:15:09 PM   
luvdragonx


Posts: 388
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline 		Ok, I think I get what you're saying now.

On one end of the spectrum, you have Vanilla exchange, on the other, hardcore BDSM exchange. While you share interests on the vanilla end, you also have interests on the BDSM end. And through whatever mechanism, be it society or human nature, never the twain shall meet. So you're kind of like a dual citizen without a home, not 100% one or the other.

I have never felt the urge or need to go full on 24/7. As a matter of fact, I don't think I'd have time for the other things I enjoy. BDSM in my life is way too personal for me to make it 'lifestyle' if you know what I mean. Yes, I enjoy my submission, and my Dom enjoys my submission. I don't need other people to validate that or bear witness to my submission to make it any more real. A lot of what I read from more experienced people on these boards is "Go to a munch. Meet people' etc. It's easy to get the idea that the 'real' folks are the ones who are always out and about, meeting and greeting, seeing and being seen. When I first got into D/s, i was comcerned that what I wanted wasn't 'real' enough.

It's people like you, who are open and upfront about how you want and expect your life and lifestyle to be, that helped me get over that. You are as 'real' a BDSMer as I am. As 'real' as anyone else who chooses this alternate aspect to complement their existence. There are a lot of ideas and discussions that I don't feel connected to because they don't have anything to do with me-at this point. They may come up in the future, or not.

I felt a similar disconnection recently when my kids were invited to a birthday party. There were a million 3 year old's running around and all I could think was "Damn, I'm glad my kids are older." I sat there wondering, 'What do I have in common with these parents? What do my kids have in common with these kids?" Specifally, we all had nothing in common because my kids are older and I really don't like being around a bunch of little kids, especially at birthday parties. But generally, we were all parents, and the children were all children - my kids were that age once, and the other kids will be my kids age one day. Had the bunch of us been playing soccer or tennis and having a good time, I'd have never thought those things.

Bringing it back to this lifestyle, if you will, it could be that the people you find associated with BDSM feel obligated to maintain that connection - in other words, just because we meet at a munch or BDSM website means we have to 'talk shop' all the time without exploring the more mundane aspects of life in general.

I hear you and I think I see where you're coming from. You're not alone, trust me.




_____________________________

Never Without Love

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RE: The non-lifestyler perspective - 8/16/2005 3:24:00 PM   
anthrosub


Posts: 843
Joined: 6/2/2004
Status: offline 		I haven't read this entire thread but the last few posts are along the line of some thoughts I've been having lately. I agree with Rover that there seem to be some misconceptions about how this "lifestyle" factors into a relationship and can't be all there is to it. Even so, if that's all there is, it's still a relationship of sorts.

What I've been thinking about lately is how the "lifestyle" is not really a lifestyle at all but simply an activity. What qualifies the use of the term "lifestyle" seems to be a function of how much the activity saturates people's day to day existence. In short, frequency. I think a lot of people come into the fold thinking there are lots of people out there living by some unseen book of BDSM rules. They think those with experience are well versed in these rules and will know how to apply them in practice.

They also make the mistake (as I did) of thinking they will find someone "through the lens" of the lifestyle for a relationship. The reality is that people in this lifestyle have complete lives just like anyone else and this is more something they do on the side (just like any other activity (boating, golf, arts and crafts, etc.). It just so happens this activity overlaps the boundaries of relationships because it involves physical and emotional feelings.

Imagine trying to find a partner and putting something like "must have a decent under par average for 18 holes" as a condition on meeting. Most people with profiles are looking to play (seriously or casually...it's still play). The odds of meeting someone who's compatible in all the ways essential for making a relationship work by focusing first and foremost on their interest in BDSM is a huge mistake. One would be better served meeting someone vanilla, expressing their interest in BDSM, and after establishing the foundation that all relationships need, begin to incorporate it into the day to day.

If this approach is taken, it goes without saying the person will be spending time with someone who has the necessary qualities (Dominant or submissive) to explore BDSM together. If they are already at least somewhat familiar with it, all the better but that should not be a priority on finding someone. All this being said, I now look at profiles on sites like Collarme not so much as "ads" but simply descriptions of who people are "in" the lifestyle. All those who profess to be seeking anyone I take to be looking primarily for someone to play with either temporarily or long term but certainly not with a full blown relationship in mind...even if they say so.

anthrosub

_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: The non-lifestyler perspective - 8/16/2005 3:43:52 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luvdragonx
Ok, I think I get what you're saying now.

On one end of the spectrum, you have Vanilla exchange, on the other, hardcore BDSM exchange. While you share interests on the vanilla end, you also have interests on the BDSM end. And through whatever mechanism, be it society or human nature, never the twain shall meet. So you're kind of like a dual citizen without a home, not 100% one or the other.

Well not quite… I’m not sure anything that I do is vanilla. See I don’t consider playing tennis vanilla. Playing tennis is playing tennis. It is not fundamentally a sexual thing. Is it pervertable? Sure. The racket makes a lovely percussion instrument, the ball a lovely gag, I can make a sub a ball boy, etc. But when I play tennis with my guy, I’m usually playing tennis. Sure we can sweeten the pot with a friendly wager and that can be of sexual nature, but I have plenty of non-BDSMer friends who do that too.

Vanilla, a word I actually don’t like very much, originates from “vanilla sex”. It is a sex aspect. An intimacy aspect. Calling a game of tennis a vanilla activity seems absurd to me.

So no, this is not a spectrum so much as it is a collage, BDSM activities being but one portion of the collage.

quote:


I have never felt the urge or need to go full on 24/7. As a matter of fact, I don't think I'd have time for the other things I enjoy. BDSM in my life is way too personal for me to make it 'lifestyle' if you know what I mean.

I know exactly what you mean :-)

quote:


Yes, I enjoy my submission, and my Dom enjoys my submission. I don't need other people to validate that or bear witness to my submission to make it any more real. A lot of what I read from more experienced people on these boards is "Go to a munch. Meet people' etc. It's easy to get the idea that the 'real' folks are the ones who are always out and about, meeting and greeting, seeing and being seen. When I first got into D/s, i was comcerned that what I wanted wasn't 'real' enough.

Ok. That kind of advice doesn’t work for me because I’ve been to a few munches and never again. I didn’t like it. They always felt so awkward and contrived and I generally had absolutely nothing in common with the people that were there. I’m very selective about who I open up to. I open up a bit more here on these message boards because of the anonymity aspect, but in my every day to day, I’m a very private person.

quote:


It's people like you, who are open and upfront about how you want and expect your life and lifestyle to be, that helped me get over that. You are as 'real' a BDSMer as I am. As 'real' as anyone else who chooses this alternate aspect to complement their existence. There are a lot of ideas and discussions that I don't feel connected to because they don't have anything to do with me-at this point. They may come up in the future, or not.

Thanks. For the record, I don’t know if I myself consider myself a real BDSMer because I’m not sure I know what a real BDSMer is.
quote:


[…]
I hear you and I think I see where you're coming from. You're not alone, trust me.

I know I’m not alone. I’m glad to see such a diversity of opinions and responses on this thread.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to luvdragonx)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: The non-lifestyler perspective - 8/16/2005 4:18:29 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub

I haven't read this entire thread but the last few posts are along the line of some thoughts I've been having lately. I agree with Rover that there seem to be some misconceptions about how this "lifestyle" factors into a relationship and can't be all there is to it. Even so, if that's all there is, it's still a relationship of sorts.

Of course there are misconceptions. We can’t come up with a definition for what a lifestyler is. Everyone seems to have their own definition which is fine, but because of this, there won’t be something that we agree on, only a word we choose to identify with.

quote:


What I've been thinking about lately is how the "lifestyle" is not really a lifestyle at all but simply an activity. What qualifies the use of the term "lifestyle" seems to be a function of how much the activity saturates people's day to day existence. frequency.


That is the point Akasha was making earlier on and it made sense to me. She offered the possibility that lifestylers were to Trekkies what plain ol kinky non-lifestylers were to Star Trek viewers.

quote:


In short, I think a lot of people come into the fold thinking there are lots of people out there living by some unseen book of BDSM rules. They think those with experience are well versed in these rules and will know how to apply them in practice.

Well of course they think that. So many people are. Or at least want to be. No but seriously. We have forums on “what should a slave do” and “what should a Master wear” and other types of protocol threads. I’m not knocking them, though I will come straight out and say they aren’t for me. However they do set expectations. There seems to be an air of purism about the perfect slave and the perfect Dominant. It doesn’t affect me so much now but it did when I was new to all this. I remember thinking to myself “All this makes me hot but there is no way on earth I can pull this FemmeDomme thing off and there is even a lesser chance in hell that I can pull the submissive thing off”.

quote:


They also make the mistake (as I did) of thinking they will find someone "through the lens" of the lifestyle for a relationship. The reality is that people in this lifestyle have complete lives just like anyone else and this is more something they do on the side (just like any other activity (boating, golf, arts and crafts, etc.). It just so happens this activity overlaps the boundaries of relationships because it involves physical and emotional feelings.

Ah yes. That mistake. I made it too.

quote:


Imagine trying to find a partner and putting something like "must have a decent under par average for 18 holes" as a condition on meeting. Most people with profiles are looking to play (seriously or casually...it's still play). The odds of meeting someone who's compatible in all the ways essential for making a relationship work by focusing first and foremost on their interest in BDSM is a huge mistake. One would be better served meeting someone vanilla, expressing their interest in BDSM, and after establishing the foundation that all relationships need, begin to incorporate it into the day to day.

Well I don’t think that this is so preposterous. Some people here are diehard lifestylers looking for other diehard lifestylers and that is all fine and good and more power to them! So by the same token, if it is that important for someone that their partner has a good golf game, then they should be upfront about it. If and when I put a searching profile up, that is my list of what I want, I won’t hide the fact that I’m looking for someone with a post-secondary education, preferably graduate school, with a lot of ambition and who is both artistically inclined (or at the very least appreciative of art) and athletically inclined. That is the outside shell, sure. But those are criteria that are important to me. Lets face it, in order for any relationship to work, values need to be aligned on the emotional, economical, spiritual and physical levels.

quote:


[…]All this being said, I now look at profiles on sites like Collarme not so much as "ads" but simply descriptions of who people are "in" the lifestyle. All those who profess to be seeking anyone I take to be looking primarily for someone to play with either temporarily or long term but certainly not with a full blown relationship in mind...even if they say so.


You can’t assume that. I think some people actually think that you can find a lifelong partner by kink. Well at least some people have tried with much avail to convince me.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to anthrosub)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: The non-lifestyler perspective - 8/16/2005 4:25:28 PM   
luvdragonx


Posts: 388
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luvdragonx
Ok, I think I get what you're saying now.

On one end of the spectrum, you have Vanilla exchange, on the other, hardcore BDSM exchange. While you share interests on the vanilla end, you also have interests on the BDSM end. And through whatever mechanism, be it society or human nature, never the twain shall meet. So you're kind of like a dual citizen without a home, not 100% one or the other.


Well not quite… I’m not sure anything that I do is vanilla. See I don’t consider playing tennis vanilla. Playing tennis is playing tennis. It is not fundamentally a sexual thing. Is it pervertable? Sure. The racket makes a lovely percussion instrument, the ball a lovely gag, I can make a sub a ball boy, etc. But when I play tennis with my guy, I’m usually playing tennis. Sure we can sweeten the pot with a friendly wager and that can be of sexual nature, but I have plenty of non-BDSMer friends who do that too.

Vanilla, a word I actually don’t like very much, originates from “vanilla sex”. It is a sex aspect. An intimacy aspect. Calling a game of tennis a vanilla activity seems absurd to me.

So no, this is not a spectrum so much as it is a collage, BDSM activities being but one portion of the collage.


Okay, so if we substitute 'non-BDSM' for 'vanilla' my post might make a little more sense.

quote:

quote:

quote:


Yes, I enjoy my submission, and my Dom enjoys my submission. I don't need other people to validate that or bear witness to my submission to make it any more real. A lot of what I read from more experienced people on these boards is "Go to a munch. Meet people' etc. It's easy to get the idea that the 'real' folks are the ones who are always out and about, meeting and greeting, seeing and being seen. When I first got into D/s, i was comcerned that what I wanted wasn't 'real' enough.



Ok. That kind of advice doesn’t work for me because I’ve been to a few munches and never again. I didn’t like it. They always felt so awkward and contrived and I generally had absolutely nothing in common with the people that were there. I’m very selective about who I open up to. I open up a bit more here on these message boards because of the anonymity aspect, but in my every day to day, I’m a very private person.


Maybe you misunderstood what I meant. I wasn't suggesting that you 'get out' more to the BDSM events, I was explaining how, from my perspective, the overwhelming majority seemed to suggest that socializing within the lifestyle was a way to be more real. I too disagree with that idea, as I don't find the public display - (I'm at a kinky function - see how REAL I am ???) - very rewarding. Most are people that I'll never see again, outside of those events, so I have no urge to make a connection.

quote:


Thanks. For the record, I don’t know if I myself consider myself a real BDSMer because I’m not sure I know what a real BDSMer is.





That's just it. Someone else suggested that the word 'lifestyle' is a blanket for certain activities and orientations. A person may never visit a site like this one or claim membership to the 'BDSM Club' but engage in these type of dynamics and activities all the same. Think of sports fans. There are the people who will watch their team on tv if there's nothing else on. There are people who will only watch their team when they're in the playoffs. Some watch almost all season. Others go to some home games. Still others are season ticket holders. Even others who follow the team around the country. There many degrees of interest and investment but the overall connection is that they all like the same team. I don't think this is much different. How you choose to involve yourself in this world is no indicator of how much you enjoy it or how committed you are, only you know the true measure of that.

_____________________________

Never Without Love

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: The non-lifestyler perspective - 8/16/2005 4:39:05 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luvdragonx
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
So no, this is not a spectrum so much as it is a collage, BDSM activities being but one portion of the collage.

Okay, so if we substitute 'non-BDSM' for 'vanilla' my post might make a little more sense.


Sure thing. But I would say just "activities".

quote:

ORIGINAL: luvdragonx
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Ok. That kind of advice doesn’t work for me because I’ve been to a few munches and never again. I didn’t like it. [...]

Maybe you misunderstood what I meant. I wasn't suggesting that you 'get out' more to the BDSM events, I was explaining how, from my perspective, the overwhelming majority seemed to suggest that socializing within the lifestyle was a way to be more real. I too disagree with that idea, as I don't find the public display - (I'm at a kinky function - see how REAL I am ???) - very rewarding. Most are people that I'll never see again, outside of those events, so I have no urge to make a connection.

Actually I totally understood your post. I just didn't respond to it properly ;-) I guess what I meant to say was that the munch didn't make me feel more real. It made me feel more alien.

quote:

ORIGINAL: luvdragonx
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Thanks. For the record, I don’t know if I myself consider myself a real BDSMer because I’m not sure I know what a real BDSMer is.

That's just it. Someone else suggested that the word 'lifestyle' is a blanket for certain activities and orientations. A person may never visit a site like this one or claim membership to the 'BDSM Club' but engage in these type of dynamics and activities all the same. Think of sports fans. There are the people who will watch their team on tv if there's nothing else on. There are people who will only watch their team when they're in the playoffs. Some watch almost all season. Others go to some home games. Still others are season ticket holders. Even others who follow the team around the country. There many degrees of interest and investment but the overall connection is that they all like the same team. I don't think this is much different. How you choose to involve yourself in this world is no indicator of how much you enjoy it or how committed you are, only you know the true measure of that.

Well said.
- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to luvdragonx)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: The non-lifestyler perspective - 8/16/2005 5:12:25 PM   
anthrosub


Posts: 843
Joined: 6/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

You can’t assume that. I think some people actually think that you can find a lifelong partner by kink. Well at least some people have tried with much avail to convince me.


Yes I realize this, too. What I meant by that last part of my post is I think people who actually do succeed are the exception to the rule. You know it's funny but whenever a post is made where a population is being referenced, those who are the exception will usually be the first to post the contrary no matter what the subject. It's like this aspect goes right over their head or something. The hard reality here is that "most" people are not going to find the person who's right for them strictly through using the lifestyle population as a pool of prospects. Maybe if they wait long enough they will but I think they would be better served just meeting people the old fashioned way.

Edit to add: My reference to being the exception going over people's head is meant as a general statement and can apply to any subject discussion. My apologies if it's been taken harshly.

anthrosub

< Message edited by anthrosub -- 8/16/2005 9:50:09 PM >

_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: The non-lifestyler perspective - 8/16/2005 5:54:10 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub

quote:

You can’t assume that. I think some people actually think that you can find a lifelong partner by kink. Well at least some people have tried with much avail to convince me.


Yes I realize this, too. What I meant by that last part of my post is I think people who actually do succeed are the exception to the rule. You know it's funny but whenever a post is made where a population is being referenced, those who are the exception will usually be the first to post the contrary no matter what the subject. It's like this aspect goes right over their head or something. The hard reality here is that "most" people are not going to find the person who's right for them strictly through using the lifestyle population as a pool of prospects. Maybe if they wait long enough they will but I think they would be better served just meeting people the old fashioned way.

anthrosub

The aspect didn't go right over my head. I agree with you that the people who do succeed are the exception to the rule. What I was saying is that there are a large amount of people who put a lot of stock into believing that they will meet someone based on kink.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to anthrosub)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: The non-lifestyler perspective - 8/16/2005 6:09:09 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		I don't know if this is gonna come off right. Late as I am in the conversation. I read along the posts, would have liked to have jumped in several times.....LOL (imagine that--me?) but I fear I may be disappated.

Many marry for money and work out the lovin 'later (we know how that goes)

Religion must be the answer then.......
Perhaps if we had a better job.......
Oh, honey if I didn't have to put up with your fucking mother.
yada yada yada
You know if I could just scrape all that little piddly bullshit under the rug, and just fuck like a mink............ (I am reminded of Richard Pryor here..........)

Regardless we all stick in a rut of some making, but man to man, woman to woman, man to woman, woman to man, gorean to gorean, life to life, and soul to soul........what we want (I may actually get these words by before she catches me.......you know who you are Mod) WHAT WE FUCKING WANT! Is, peace, love, communication, understanding, something greater than taking out the trash, paying bills, and watching our slow undoing..............

When I die-- it is gonna be alone. That's the bargain whether you signed in for this gig or didn't. If you live it is a certainty you will die. End of joke. While I am here, I want a soul that is one with me, I don't want to be alone and separate.

What does this have to do with the discussion at hand?


Nothing,
Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: The non-lifestyler perspective - 8/16/2005 8:20:22 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

WHAT WE FUCKING WANT! Is, peace, love, communication, understanding, something greater than taking out the trash, paying bills, and watching our slow undoing..............


Exactly. That and someone who gets me. Who really, really gets me. And for me to find that someone who gets me, I got to get me. Get it?

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: The non-lifestyler perspective - 8/17/2005 2:27:11 PM   
GoddessDustyGold


Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline 		And the others who are seeking need to "get themselves" also. I am pretty sure, after much trial and error, that I do, indeed, "get Myself", and as a result, I will not settle for less than I know I need to be happy.
Like GentleLady, I feel I am probably on the opposite end of the spectrum, also. But I also get that feeling of disconnect. I have been feeling it a bit more lately. However, I have always enjoyed your posts, and been the recipient of new insights and ideas because of those posts. Even if a post only makes Me realize, all the more, that I am firm in where I stand, and what I need. It does not mean I don't respect others views or choices, and I certainly don't consider them to be fakes or wannabes. The only fakes or wannabes are the ones who are dishonest and just use this site or a munch or a dungeon party as a way to get kinky sex. And I still don't think they are fakes until they are dishonest about their ultimate intentions. If that's what someone wants, all I ask is that you say it. I have answered several politely written emails where it was quite clear what the boy's agenda was, and I respectfully declined. I did not call out "FAKE!". It just made it quicker and easier for Me to know it was not worth pursuing.
To Me, referring to this lifestyle simply means that I do not fall into the norm of what most people consider traditional and acceptable in a relationship. I don't even need to refer to the kink. I refer to the opposite roles. Now I can only speak from a Feminine perspective. There are many, many males out there who think they want a power exchange, but they really don't understand what it entails. As long as they are getting their fanatasy fed, whether erotic, or through role play (which is always temporary, at best) they think they are the right boy for Me. I expect much, much more.
Although I also agree that it is difficult, even unlikely that I will find the partner of My dreams on the internet or at a local much, I have a strong conviction in what I want, and I am more likely to find a compatible partner (eventually) through these venues, than I am in the everyday business of life. At least there is a beginning of commonality as to power exchange, along with the kink.
I think there is always a certain amount of power exchange in any relationship. Some just continue with the idea that "a women's place is in the home", "the man wears the pants in the family", the wife rears the children and cooks the meals", or the wife may well work, and enjoy that work, but, unless a family can enjoy the luxury of a housekeeper, who still handles the bulk of that work? I know I am coming at this from the "man of the house" mentality, but that is much more common that the pussy-whipped husband. Even the ones that are obviously under their wive's thumbs, still have an equal say in certain matters. No matter how much we dress it up, the traditonal roles stil stand to a certain extent. May it is not quite as extreme as "Leave It To Beave" anymore, but there is still that mindset. I notice it all the time, even on TV commericals. I have to admit it gets My goat. The same messages, and the same roles continue to be "discreetly" fed to all.
If I was very young again, and could know and understand what I know and understand about Myself, now, I might have a better shot at converting a "vanilla". But, I have to be realisitic and see that most of the men who are of an age and would be interested in exploring the idea of a long term relationship with Me are not of the mindset that males do much of anything except go to work every day, play golf on the weekends, and come in the door at night saying "Hi, Honey, I'm home...what's for dinner?" Been there, done that. And I don't ever want to do it again. I suppressed a large part of Myself for many, many years, because I thought I was weird, or expected too much, or I was on the wrong path and needed to find My happiness and contentment in the traditional role. And get this! I was never a feminist, per se. I always thought that any woman worth her salt should be able to get what she wanted without the extra enforcement of a law. Especially since the entire movement seemed to be denigrating the choices of those women who were happy and wanted to remain in the home. All of a sudden, being a housewife was looked down upon. So, even though I was working every day, I continued to interact with many who were feeling inadequate because they didn't have a job. Why is it that so many feel so passionately about something, they feel they have to cram "their way as the only way" down everybody else's throat?
It sucks that there isn't a better way to describe what one wants and needs. We can only try our best, and hope that someday, there is someone (some of you already have it!) who really "gets us".

< Message edited by GoddessDustyGold -- 8/17/2005 2:35:51 PM >

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom


(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: The non-lifestyler perspective - 8/17/2005 2:53:41 PM   
MsIncognito


Posts: 742
Joined: 5/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold

And the others who are seeking need to "get themselves" also. I am pretty sure, after much trial and error, that I do, indeed, "get Myself", and as a result, I will not settle for less than I know I need to be happy.


I used to try and "get myself" and thought it was the way to be happy. Eventually, I got tired of the seemingly endless self-analysis and decided to "accept myself" instead. Unless there is some pathological basis for something (and I don't think my enjoyment of BDSM is rooted in pathology in the least) I just accept that I am the way I am and enjoy life all the more for it.

< Message edited by MsIncognito -- 8/17/2005 2:54:17 PM >

(in reply to GoddessDustyGold)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: The non-lifestyler perspective - 8/17/2005 3:03:00 PM   
GoddessDustyGold


Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsIncognito

I used to try and "get myself" and thought it was the way to be happy. Eventually, I got tired of the seemingly endless self-analysis and decided to "accept myself" instead. Unless there is some pathological basis for something (and I don't think my enjoyment of BDSM is rooted in pathology in the least) I just accept that I am the way I am and enjoy life all the more for it.


"Accept" is just as good a word for Me! I have not done any heavy duty self-analysis, although I am sure there has been a certain, but painless, amount of that over a long period of time.
Yes, I think accept is a wonderful word!

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom


(in reply to MsIncognito)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: The non-lifestyler perspective - 8/17/2005 9:24:17 PM   
MissBenson


Posts: 22
Joined: 11/15/2004
Status: offline 		Hey, fascinating stuff and , Rover? Are you available for my Bat Mitzvah? Pleeeease?
But seriously, gevalt! Such intelligence, such clear thinking, such good grammar! [ Yep, everyone drop what they're doing this MINUTE and go buy a copy of " Eats, shoots and leaves"by the Supreme , and witty, Correct-grammar-and-usage-DOMME.]
And a large tip of the hat to Angelika and Aakasha and the rest, it is very soothing to hear so many viewpoints on the subjects of self-definition and ones' BDSM "style", not to mention the icky snobbery of the, ohhh, insecure and silly; that so closely mirror ones' own.
I have been a member for a while but rarely weigh in...can someone tell me whether it is considered bad manners to go off onto a different subject for instance HERE?
I assume it's considered good manners to just start a new...THREAD, right? And yes, I do NOT consider myself a " lifestyler" ( GAH. "Lifestyle", that GHASTLY word. Does anyone
remember a Neil Simon movie whose only good line was a caracter snapping " I
don't have a lifestyle, I have a LIFE!" ?) ....it would leave me at least with no time for anything else.
Such as asking myself whether owning eighty-three cookbooks justifies my starting a twelve-step group to combat the addiction.
Be well, MissBenson

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: The non-lifestyler perspective - 8/18/2005 4:03:18 AM   
kc692


Posts: 3701
Joined: 3/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kyakitten

Lady Angelika,

I agree with you that there have been some changes in the general climate, topics, and contributors to these boards recently, and like you, I find less I can contribute to or that interests me. My perception is that there's more of a "my way or the highway" theme overriding a majority of the threads, leaving little room for divergent tastes or views - including the distinction you mention.

Someone on one of the other threads - Erin I think? - mentioned that message boards go through cycles. I'm hoping that if we hang out here long enough, the dynamic will change again. And hopefully your message will help accelerate that, since many people here will agree that the boards are richer with you on them.

Liana


LA and kya, I have greatly found less to reply to also on these boards recently. Although I am relatively new on this board, and therefore are not totally familiar with the collarme cycles, it seems that a higher incidence of new peoples' first posts are more negative than when I first joined, and more along the lines of appearances,protocol , and "political BDSM correctness as has been previously stated, instead of wiitwd. I have also noticed that it seems that some of the regular posters have not hit the boards to reply as much in the recent past, myself included. I guess the only way we have a chance of starting to change the dynamic back, is to stay involved in the forums, and keep interjecting our thoughts. I personally am not 24/7, preferring to live my life as I and my partner deems it should be. BDSM is not the core of my life, my family and other interests are. Personally, I see no reason why lifestylers and non-lifestylers cannot gleam fruitful information from each other, nor think less of each other for their lifestyle or non lifestyle habits. A fisherman that goes and fishes occasionally loves the sport no less than one who is able or desires to go fishing everyday. Neither is a fake or a wannabe, the level it occupies in their life is different, and makes one no less than the other.

(in reply to kyakitten)
Profile   Post #: 100
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