RE: Different Set of Dating Rules For Lifestyle Relationships? (Full Version)

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KnightofMists -> RE: Different Set of Dating Rules For Lifestyle Relationships? (12/8/2007 6:38:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
We were all raised with these values, ......


"WE" were all raised with "THESE" values....'

Tell me was specific values are WE all raised with.. 

People are often raised with various values... but that doesn't equate to everyone having the same values.

Oh yes.. the content is different... but that doesn't discount the implication you make when you state that "We are all raised with these Values".  You have your own values and it's your right to judge others based on those values.  However, you don't simply stop there.... you are actually projecting your own specific brand of values on to others.  Everyone should have "YOUR" values.   Yeah.. Social Norms of Society..., what the hell are those... do you have the book on that?  Grant some behaviors will result in better reaction that others... however, the same behavior is not going to be universally acceptable to all individuals.  Of course. we could all use your rule book of what are the Social Norms of society and you would be very happy... fortunately... society doesn't work that way.  There is no Social norms or cultural behaviors that will work for everyone.  The wise are adaptable..... as was wisely stated....'developing mutual expectations together"  We all come with values, preferences, desires, wants etc etc etc.... but  the other aspect is to come together with others....somtimes intimately sometimes just friendships... and in these relationships.. we have an opportunity to communicate them honestly and openly... often times people don't do so well in this regard.. and they are even worse at building them with another....  Could be why there is such a failure rate to relationships as a whole.

Lastly.. I have to quote this...

quote:

  I've discovered that having unspoken expectations from someone and then holding them to this image that I have in my head is a quick journey to loneliness. Often, my only real emphasis on a first "date" is to see if I mesh with the person and ther person meshes with me. The little things like were mentioned in the OP just don't really concern me. I think people go way out of their way to make it difficult for other people to connect with them, and then they complain that it is so hard to find someone.


Outstanding!!!  Unspoken expectations can be anything... like principles, values and social norms that we hold.  Fact is... these is no universal book to draw on... we have to communicate them in constructive ways to build a healthy relationship.  I not only agree with Littlesarbonn''s view that this is a quick road to loneliness... but these unspoken expectations well cause a relationship to have a not so enjoyable ride on a rocky road of up's and downs.





juliaoceania -> RE: Different Set of Dating Rules For Lifestyle Relationships? (12/8/2007 6:42:23 PM)

Yes, I judge whom I will be intimate with based upon MY values.. wow, imagine that, what a TERRIBLE person I am

You have values that you judge people by... no brainer.. I am not supposed to?

Edited to add... "these" was a typo.. I meant that we are all raised with the values that we have... not specific values.

Since I am not the only one on this thread that has these same values.. that you invite you should pay. That if someone picks up the tab one time it is polite to pick it up the next... etc... I do not think that the rules of etiquette I was raised with are anymore wrong than yours...




juliaoceania -> RE: Different Set of Dating Rules For Lifestyle Relationships? (12/8/2007 6:53:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

In my best Janis Joplin screech…..
“……..prooooove that ya love me
and buy the next round
oh, Lord, won’t ya buy me
a night on the town.”
I left in the middle of a first date once.  He talked me into going to a movie that didn’t interest me and then he fell asleep!  The movie was awful, my date was snoring in the seat next to me.  I stood up and he continued to snore.  I went to the lobby and called a cab and went home.
I don’t have a lot of expectations for a first meet but snoring is a limit! [:D]


You know, perhaps you should have discussed your expectations that he stay awake for your date.  It is not rude that he fell asleep, you just had a different expectation for how the date should have ended.. you know, with a conscious person...lol

If you ever go out on another date perhaps you should both set expectations that both of you should remain awake until at least after the sex...




KnightofMists -> RE: Different Set of Dating Rules For Lifestyle Relationships? (12/8/2007 7:09:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Yes, I judge whom I will be intimate with based upon MY values.. wow, imagine that, what a TERRIBLE person I am

You have values that you judge people by... no brainer.. I am not supposed to?



I guess your reading comprehension is rather challenged tonight..

You must of missed my statement in my previous post....

"You have your own values and it's your right to judge others based on those values."
 
I thought it was rather clearly stated and it seems that you are projecting your emotions into your responses.... 
Well.. your emotions ... your issues.  I will pass on futher discussion with you...  I don't have time to waste in discussion with someone who can keep their emotions in check.





juliaoceania -> RE: Different Set of Dating Rules For Lifestyle Relationships? (12/8/2007 7:15:41 PM)

You are flaming me for no reason....whatever floats your boat

And btw, I am not projecting anything on to anyone... people can choose who, how, when, and what they want to do and I could give a flying fuck... but I also know why societies through out time have had rules for interacting with each other... it is called smoothing social relations...

Congrats to you and yours on your recent change in abodes...I am done here too, for some reason this topic is rather emotional for you, and that is YOUR stuff, not mine






LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Different Set of Dating Rules For Lifestyle Relationships? (12/8/2007 8:32:19 PM)

I can be pretty irrational in this regard as well- I have no problem whatsoever with a half naked woman introducing herself as "Cunt" and asking that she please not shake my hands as it is forbidden to her.

But I will be annoyed if she's wearing white after Labor Day.




juliaoceania -> RE: Different Set of Dating Rules For Lifestyle Relationships? (12/8/2007 9:36:12 PM)

quote:


I can be pretty irrational in this regard as well- I have no problem whatsoever with a half naked woman introducing herself as "Cunt" and asking that she please not shake my hands as it is forbidden to her.

But I will be annoyed if she's wearing white after Labor Day.


That made me laugh.. thank you LA




juliaoceania -> RE: Different Set of Dating Rules For Lifestyle Relationships? (12/9/2007 5:56:35 AM)

I thought about my own thread when I was in bed last night, and  I was reconsidering some of my "opinions" I have written here. I have thought about my own expectations that I live by, and what has changed in the last 6 months of my life... which is a lot really. I approach life with a lot less expectations than I used to. There are many rules I live by, but I have a lot fewer expectations of others and what they do. It makes me happier because I do have few expectations of others, but I have very high expectations for myself and my own behavior, and even though I expect people to operate in certain ways based upon my experiences in this world, I have long ago ceased to be surprised when they don't. I am definitely not miss manners, but I do think we all have an unspoken rulebook based upon the values we were raised by, and we do form judgments of others based upon that rulebook, but most importantly it helps us figure out our own actions when we approach socially uncomfortable situations.

I have learned that I talk about date etiquette before I go out with people a long time ago, so people SHOULD (should is an expectation word) clarify their expectations before they meet someone new... especially if the person they are making plans with chooses a 50 dollar a plate dinnerhouse, and they are just struggling to buy school clothes for their 7 year old (that experience taught me to realize that other people were not raised the same way as me, and it was rather an expensive lesson at the time when I was making not much more than minimum wage, but it was effective because I have not made that mistake again).

So perhaps in the thread that sparked this one, the young lady in question will not assume the rules of reciprocity apply to all she knows, because as this thread illustrated, not everyone has those rules or cares about them, and being upfront can save people from uncomfortable situations... such as watching the person you are with rifle through their wallet and intentionally give you only enough to buy their drink, and actually have you pay for part of theirs, and make it blatantly obvious that they have no intention of buying you a round. And I suppose the rules of etiquette did not require her to say goodbye either, as many thought she was rude for that behavior, because since there is no rulebook about such things, she was not wrong. No one was wrong, everyone was just operating from their own unspoken expectations.. the dom that did not pay for a drink was perfectly within his own rulebook.. and the submissive leaving without saying a word was applying her rulebook.. so since no etiquette applies anymore this thread is rather silly..

But maybe it did get people to think about how they assume (like I wrongly did) that the people they are going out with have basic social niceties as a part of their rulebook... like being on time, etc. I am glad I am not dating anymore, it is rather much more complicated than it was when I was younger.







Padriag -> RE: Different Set of Dating Rules For Lifestyle Relationships? (12/9/2007 8:41:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

~FR~

I don't have 'lifestyle dates'. I don't have 'vanilla dates".

I have dates. Period. On a date; I am myself.

Pretty much sums it up for me.  I am who I am and I appreciate it when others are simply themselves as well.  One of the things I've learned to really dislike are submissives who try to be someone they aren't because they so want to impress me.  The truth is going to come out sooner or later, might as well make it sooner and stop wasting each other's time.




Missokyst -> RE: Different Set of Dating Rules For Lifestyle Relationships? (12/9/2007 8:54:37 AM)

That is the way it is for me too.  Men tend to reach for the check, or tell me it is on them when I meet them for coffee, dinner, ect.  Perhaps subconsciously I see this as an indicator of what type of person they are, whether it is generous or thrify.  For my own part, I am comfortable moneywise and have been known to pick up the tab for my buddies at dinners ect.  When I am considering dating someone I want to know they have a similar viewpoint.  Money is just money.
I have met a couple of guys in the past and based on the feeling I got from them, either reached for my own tab, or insisted I pay for both of us.  I think it was a power move on my part.
Money is money, but using it is power.
Kyst

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Edited to add, in my life experience men that want to date dutch are not really into me, and I do not go out with men that are not really into me for very long. Men usually will break out their wallets if they really like you and want to make a good impression.





Padriag -> RE: Different Set of Dating Rules For Lifestyle Relationships? (12/9/2007 9:07:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

No one was wrong, everyone was just operating from their own unspoken expectations.. the dom that did not pay for a drink was perfectly within his own rulebook.. and the submissive leaving without saying a word was applying her rulebook.. so since no etiquette applies anymore this thread is rather silly..

Often, here and elsewhere, online and off, I see people make statements to the effect of "I don't care what others think, I do what I want."  Rubbish.  I do think there are many people who wish they could live that way, and some who try to do so.  But I also believe it is a good way to end up a very lonely and isolated person.  Part of living in a society, or being part of a group, means caring what others think.  Etiquette is nothing more than a system of expectations designed to foster communication... or in other words... it helps people in a group get along with each other despite their differences.  An individual who spends enough time truly not caring what others think is likely to awaken one day to find they have no friends left... no one left who cares about them or what they do... no one who gives a fig about them.  We all want someone to care about us, its nice when we have a community to care about us.  We form groups, clubs, organizations, tribes, societies, nations, etc. because we are social creatures... we want to be cared about.  The price of that is that in turn... we must ourselves care, we must consider, we must strike a balance between our desires and those of others.  We observe outdated practices of opening doors... not because women can't do it themselves... but because that action fulfills an expectation, it communicates a simple message... I care, I am worthy of being cared about.  We do for others when they have done for us because in these simple gestures we are saying something... if you care about me, I will care about you... if you help me, I will help you... if you aid me, I will aid you.  Etiquette is a form of communication... but the lack of it says something as well.

So I'll leave it with this thought.  Regardless of how you choose to behave, whether you open doors for others or not, whether pay any attention to any form of etiquette or not... what are you saying to others with these unspoken communications?  And what would you wish to say, or them hear?




NorthernGent -> RE: Different Set of Dating Rules For Lifestyle Relationships? (12/9/2007 9:09:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

If you felt as though you did not want carry on with a date any further, it is rude to tell the person this and then leave? Is it unsubmissive to?



'Definitely not rude or "unsubmissive". If you don't like what's on offer, then swerve it. 'Takes two to tango.

In terms of different rules, I'm the same person in any given situation; she adapts for me.

In terms of who pays, it depends on her character; if she has a habit of making demands and has expectations, then I'll make sure she pays until she takes a more grounded approach. Otherwise, I pay more often than not, but will always keep her on her toes by telling her to pick up the tab when she's not expecting it.




DesFIP -> RE: Different Set of Dating Rules For Lifestyle Relationships? (12/9/2007 9:19:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

In terms of who pays, it depends on her character; if she has a habit of making demands and has expectations, then I'll make sure she pays until she takes a more grounded approach. Otherwise, I pay more often than not, but will always keep her on her toes by telling her to pick up the tab when she's not expecting it.


Do you bother to find out first if she can afford this? Or do you get your kicks by inviting her to the most expensive restaurant in town, knowing she will be taking her family to the soup kitchen for two weeks because of you sticking her with the tab?




NorthernGent -> RE: Different Set of Dating Rules For Lifestyle Relationships? (12/9/2007 9:29:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Do you bother to find out first if she can afford this? Or do you get your kicks by inviting her to the most expensive restaurant in town, knowing she will be taking her family to the soup kitchen for two weeks because of you sticking her with the tab?



Perpetuating hunger among the poorest socio-economic groups in society is not on my agenda, you can rest assured.

Quite a lot of assumptions in your post, 'not wise to use assumption as the basis of your judgements/questions/postings etc.

Plus, when I take women out, I always take them to the soup kitchen, so another trip for them is neither here nor there.....the soup kitchen down the road from me does a cracking beans on toast washed down with a cup of bovril....all for a quid, show me a woman who wouldn't be happy with that. 




marieToo -> RE: Different Set of Dating Rules For Lifestyle Relationships? (12/9/2007 9:29:50 AM)

Of the potential dominant males I have met over the past 8 years (maybe about a dozen or so), all but two of the first meetings took place in restaurants.  I conducted myself the way I would in any other situation--I was just me,  which can vary a little bit depending on the chemistry I have with someone. 
 
All of the men paid without question or discussion--anything less would be a huge turn off for me.  I don't appreciate cheap people, especially men.  In my world men should pay for that kind of stuff.  On some levels I guess I'm pretty old fashioned that way.  I wouldn't think twice about spending money on someone and often I spend freely and generously on others, so if some dude doesn't want to pay for my broiled salmon, or a glass of wine, he's a pussy.  Fortunately I've never had to deal with a cheapskate.

Out of these dudes that I met, only about 3-4 of them grew into relationships.  There was one man in particular who I didn't see myself continuing on with.  He was a total gentleman and very classy.  He ordered my dinner for me, made fine conversation and we came back to my house for coffee afterwards.  I really wasn't interested in a relationship with him, for reasons I won't go into, and I told him just that sitting at my kitchen table.  It was a fun date, but he wasn't right for me. Anyway, he was totally cool about the fact that I wasn't looking for the same thing as he was.  And we parted as friends.  I would never cut a date short because I'm not interested in someone. I think that all people have value, regardless of whether or not I am interested in them as a dominant parnter.  I would definitately finish the date and converse and get to know the person, and leave as friends. I would never just discard a person and cut the date short because I'm not attracted to them. That'd make me a piece o shit.


On edit:  For every rule there's an exception. If I was on a date with NG, I'd pick up the tab--Hell, I'd pay it twice just for the opportunity to watch him put food in his mouth.




KindLadyGrey -> RE: Different Set of Dating Rules For Lifestyle Relationships? (12/9/2007 9:30:05 AM)

If the date was boring, inconclusive, or just not attractive to me, I will put my half of the cash on the table and pass the check to my date for them to work out their portion. It doesn't even require discussion; it's a pretty clear sign that we're going dutch.

If my date is really obnoxious or rude, I will tell them so and leave. More often, I'll utilize my safecall as an excuse to leave. Girls do this all the time even in vanilla relationships. "Hey, I'm going out with a guy tonight. Can you call me at 8oclock in case I need to make up an excuse to leave?" Then, if they guy is odious or annoying, when your friend calls you hang up and say something like "A friend of mine is in some trouble. I need to leave pretty soon to go get her." It sounds manipulative, but it is often a way to avoid hurt feelings if you just aren't interested, so many women prefer the non-confrontational route. YMMV.

If, by the time the check comes, I have decided that I like my date, want a second date, and want to pursue a D/s relationship with that person, then I will ALWAYS pick up the check, often over their objections (especially if I'm out with a guy). It is my personal opinion that who pays is a very big part of the power dynamic of a relationship. As the Dominant party, I pay.

I find that this is an excellent time to insert a little D/s dynamic into an otherwise vanilla date. Most women will only put up token objections, but men have been culturally groomed to pick up the check, so they often have very strong objections and some of them even argue a lot or try to physically take the check from me. It's a good opportunity to smack their hand and tell them to shut up and do what I say. Most of them get it at that point, and then the fun begins. . .

On a vanilla date, I always assume we are going dutch, but am generally pleased if my date offers to pay. I won't write someone off because they don't pay though. That's silly.




Wildfleurs -> RE: Different Set of Dating Rules For Lifestyle Relationships? (12/9/2007 9:55:38 AM)

I don't know if its a generational difference, but especially in the begining of dating, my preferenece was to pay and go dutch.  If the potential dominant insisted then I wsn't going to get into an arguement over it.  But I never wanted the prospective dominant to think that I owed them anything, including anything for covering dinner.  And I always made sure I had extra cash on me just in case anything strange happened.  I can't imagine someone's interest/desire in paying for my dinner being a major factor in whether to go on a second or third date.  Its just not that important.

C~




NorthernGent -> RE: Different Set of Dating Rules For Lifestyle Relationships? (12/9/2007 10:29:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

If I was on a date with NG



Well, you know, we're only a small pond from one another: pour my wine for the evening and generally entertain me with conversation, song, etc, and I'll push the boat out for this one.




marieToo -> RE: Different Set of Dating Rules For Lifestyle Relationships? (12/9/2007 10:39:07 AM)

Delicious...




IrishMist -> RE: Different Set of Dating Rules For Lifestyle Relationships? (12/9/2007 11:46:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

No one was wrong, everyone was just operating from their own unspoken expectations.. the dom that did not pay for a drink was perfectly within his own rulebook.. and the submissive leaving without saying a word was applying her rulebook.. so since no etiquette applies anymore this thread is rather silly..

Often, here and elsewhere, online and off, I see people make statements to the effect of "I don't care what others think, I do what I want."  Rubbish.  I do think there are many people who wish they could live that way, and some who try to do so.  But I also believe it is a good way to end up a very lonely and isolated person.  Part of living in a society, or being part of a group, means caring what others think.  Etiquette is nothing more than a system of expectations designed to foster communication... or in other words... it helps people in a group get along with each other despite their differences.  An individual who spends enough time truly not caring what others think is likely to awaken one day to find they have no friends left... no one left who cares about them or what they do... no one who gives a fig about them.  We all want someone to care about us, its nice when we have a community to care about us.  We form groups, clubs, organizations, tribes, societies, nations, etc. because we are social creatures... we want to be cared about.  The price of that is that in turn... we must ourselves care, we must consider, we must strike a balance between our desires and those of others.  We observe outdated practices of opening doors... not because women can't do it themselves... but because that action fulfills an expectation, it communicates a simple message... I care, I am worthy of being cared about.  We do for others when they have done for us because in these simple gestures we are saying something... if you care about me, I will care about you... if you help me, I will help you... if you aid me, I will aid you.  Etiquette is a form of communication... but the lack of it says something as well.

So I'll leave it with this thought.  Regardless of how you choose to behave, whether you open doors for others or not, whether pay any attention to any form of etiquette or not... what are you saying to others with these unspoken communications?  And what would you wish to say, or them hear?
.

You know Padriag; this post here hit home real hard.

I truly don’t care what people think; and yes, it’s a sad way to live. Those who I DO call friends know the kind of person I am; they accept this in me; just as I accept that they are really not that different from me; they don’t care one way or another either. However; I do know that the bonds that tie our friendships together are stronger than anything I have ever seen. They would never walk away when I needed them most; and I would kill to be at their side at their lowest moment. So, while none of us cares what others think about us; we would stand at each others side; loyal to the bone.

You are right though in that it hinders the forming of new relationships. Those who I know in real life and who I would call friend, I have know for almost 10 years or more. We have a lot of history together. But new friendships…are, like you said…pretty much impossible because it places too much responsibility on someone else to try and understand the motivations behind the behavior.




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