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O'Reilly sacrificing principles - 12/8/2007 2:47:35 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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Status: offline 		I was watching O'Reilly last night, on the issue of waterboarding. He said to the person he was interviewing "The difference between you and I, is that you would walk out of the room to preserve your principles, and I would do what I needed to do, to save American lives.". Principles is what makes the difference in people, and if you sacrifice them for the supposed greater good, there is no difference between the evil we see, and the evil we become. When you sacrifice principles, you are killing the soul of what this country was founded on. Americans sacrificed their lives on principle to found this country, and it will take the sacrifice of American lives to keep our principles (and I do not mean war). Once we give up our liberties and principles, there are no defining characteristics that seperates the US from anyone else. This is something that has been lost on so many administrations in the past 30 odd years.

Live well,
Orion

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RE: O'Reilly sacrificing principles - 12/8/2007 3:17:18 AM   
Real0ne


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well said!


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RE: O'Reilly sacrificing principles - 12/8/2007 3:25:48 AM   
farglebargle


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Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		"The difference between you and I, is that you would walk out of the room to preserve your principles, and I would do what I needed to do, to save American lives."

The perfect Zinger is: "Then Bill, you're saying you don't have any principles. It's easy to be a coward and OBEY orders. It takes strength to stand up for the Principle of the Rule of Law, Equal Protection and Due Process.

And remember Bill, we once hanged Nazis to prove that "Just Following Orders" wasn't an acceptable excuse...

Hmmm.. It's no secret why the CIA is destroying the evidence which could be used against the torturers, is it?





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RE: O'Reilly sacrificing principles - 12/8/2007 5:00:18 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		O'Reilly sacrificing principles in nothing more than a bunt, he has always had a dearth of anything resembling principles.

Ron 

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RE: O'Reilly sacrificing principles - 12/8/2007 5:28:54 AM   
Petronius


Posts: 289
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I'd walk out to save principles AND lives; O'Reilly would stay because he's a bigot and a bully who cares nothing for principles OR lives.

If history has taught us anthing it is that the O'Reilly's, sanctioned by authoritarian governments, have always taken far more lives than they've saved.

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RE: O'Reilly sacrificing principles - 12/8/2007 5:32:04 AM   
IdiotMale


Posts: 132
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Status: offline 		I wonder how many of you would agree with O'Reily if it it meant saving the life or lives of someone you loved.

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RE: O'Reilly sacrificing principles - 12/8/2007 5:42:39 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		Probably all of us, were that the case.  But it clearly is not. Therefore there is no agreement with the fuckwad in question.

Ron


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RE: O'Reilly sacrificing principles - 12/8/2007 6:11:20 AM   
Sanity


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Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		So, if you knew that a city of millions had a nuclear bomb hidden in it set to go off within an hour, the principled thing to do according to you would be to treat  the terrorist who you knew had planted it as if he were a shoplifter.

Hire him a lawyer, make sure he's comfortable, keep him away from the blast zone so he's good and safe...

That's principled?

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I was watching O'Reilly last night, on the issue of waterboarding. He said to the person he was interviewing "The difference between you and I, is that you would walk out of the room to preserve your principles, and I would do what I needed to do, to save American lives.". Principles is what makes the difference in people, and if you sacrifice them for the supposed greater good, there is no difference between the evil we see, and the evil we become. When you sacrifice principles, you are killing the soul of what this country was founded on. Americans sacrificed their lives on principle to found this country, and it will take the sacrifice of American lives to keep our principles (and I do not mean war). Once we give up our liberties and principles, there are no defining characteristics that seperates the US from anyone else. This is something that has been lost on so many administrations in the past 30 odd years.

Live well,
Orion


< Message edited by Sanity -- 12/8/2007 6:12:45 AM >

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RE: O'Reilly sacrificing principles - 12/8/2007 6:16:47 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
the principled thing to do according to you would be to treat the terrorist who you knew had planted it as if he were a shoplifter.


Sanity,

c'mon now sport.... the antagonistic putting of words in the mouth, while not beneath you, is so fucking inept as to be laughable.

So you are saying that people with taillights out, rather than be issued a fixit ticket, should be shot in the head to defend america-------an equivalent inferment then?

That ain't at all what he said, and it cannot be imputed from what he said. 

Ron


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RE: O'Reilly sacrificing principles - 12/8/2007 6:26:39 AM   
Gwynvyd


Posts: 4949
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

So, if you knew that a city of millions had a nuclear bomb hidden in it set to go off within an hour, the principled thing to do according to you would be to treat  the terrorist who you knew had planted it as if he were a shoplifter.

Hire him a lawyer, make sure he's comfortable, keep him away from the blast zone so he's good and safe...

That's principled?

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I was watching O'Reilly last night, on the issue of waterboarding. He said to the person he was interviewing "The difference between you and I, is that you would walk out of the room to preserve your principles, and I would do what I needed to do, to save American lives.". Principles is what makes the difference in people, and if you sacrifice them for the supposed greater good, there is no difference between the evil we see, and the evil we become. When you sacrifice principles, you are killing the soul of what this country was founded on. Americans sacrificed their lives on principle to found this country, and it will take the sacrifice of American lives to keep our principles (and I do not mean war). Once we give up our liberties and principles, there are no defining characteristics that seperates the US from anyone else. This is something that has been lost on so many administrations in the past 30 odd years.

Live well,
Orion



Why must some people always take things to the stupidest degree?

Um no... ( trying to hold back a dumb ass here ) We all would report it, make sure they got caught.. hell I would lead the search for the MF.

However..... we would not beat the shit out of him, and rape his wife and kids infront of him to punish him.

Therin lies the differance.

The missing 9/11 confession tapes are BS. They make extra copies.. and you know someone has them. Just the backup marked as the orig. is gone. Anyone stupid enough to think they dont have copies.. and someone didnt keep one is guliable. I bet it will never see the light of day though.

A realitive of mine works in one of the branches and her job is to take sensitive material, and copy and process it. There is a chain of custody, and how many copies get made.. and to whom they go to.

So many people only get to see the snippets relased to the press or leaked.. It is amazing when you get to see the whole thing. It sometimes changes the whole outlook on what went down.

When we give up on demanding our rights, and lose our principles.. then a nation no longer deserves liberty. ~ For there is no justice.

You are already enslaved. We have been heading there for a while now...

Gwyn

< Message edited by Gwynvyd -- 12/8/2007 6:28:07 AM >

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RE: O'Reilly sacrificing principles - 12/8/2007 6:48:57 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		Its only stupid if you fail to understand the premise. Things are often exaggerated in order to forcefully make a given point... so that even slow learners may understand what is being said.

There's an old joke that goes something like this: W.C. Fields asked the Lady clerk who had checked him in to a hotel if she would come up and spend the night with him in exchange for a million dollars.

Her eyes lit up, she smiled a gorgeous smile, and while dancing around the counter to take him by the arm she said, "Why, yes Mr. Fields - I'd LOVE to!!!"

Then, he cocked his head, looked down at her and asked if she would for ten dollars. Immediately she dropped his arm, backed up a step, raised her hand as if to slap him, and sharply asked him if he thought she was just a common whore... to which he replied, "We've already established that, Ma'am. Now, we're merely haggling over the price".

In other words, if it's okay to do what it takes to find a nuke and save millions and millions of lives, is it not okay to similarly find a smaller bomb to save the lives of thousands?

How about hundreds...

What principles do you live by? I stand with Bill O'Reilly on this one.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd
Why must some people always take things to the stupidest degree?


< Message edited by Sanity -- 12/8/2007 7:24:51 AM >

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RE: O'Reilly sacrificing principles - 12/8/2007 7:32:27 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
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Status: offline 		principles that are based on unfounded information, outright deceit. pure fantasy,   and chicken little hypotheticals are kinda snuggly to many.

Wish it were not so.  

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RE: O'Reilly sacrificing principles - 12/8/2007 7:33:01 AM   
bipolarber


Posts: 2792
Joined: 9/25/2004
Status: offline 		Yeah, the morons always leap for the "24" scenario to prove their point. (I'm sure Jack Bauer will show up and save the day, like he always does.)

The thing is, the people who are being tortured are NOT people who have set a bomb somewhere, and it's ticking away about to destroy an American city... They ARE terror suspects (i.e. it hasn't even been proven that they are terrorists, they just may have connections to terrorist organizations) also, most of them have been in US custondy for between 5 to 6 years! Now, most military intelligence types will tell you that, if someone who knows your plans is captured, you have to immediately change your plans... because that POW will talk. This means if they DID have any worthwhile information, it would become useless in a matter of dayt to weeks... not years.

We've held people, without trial, without even charges, without legal representation for 5 to 6 years... roughly 1/20 of a human lifetime. THIS is America?

Oh, and my inital reaction to the thread title: "O'Reilly has principles?!"

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RE: O'Reilly sacrificing principles - 12/8/2007 7:59:15 AM   
feralkyttin


Posts: 182
Joined: 11/14/2007
Status: offline 		  I have a confession to make.  I hope I do not seem to be a dumb ass, but I do not even understand what water boarding is.  I will look it up on my own, of course.  Just on principle though, I wanted to say that I found a lot of useful things here.  In my experience, things are pretty hit and miss with O'Reilly.... just like with everyone else.  Take it or leave it.  Believe it or don't.  Get off your dumb ass and find out what YOU believe.  Stand by your principals in the process and give thanks to those who helped you, even if they never even know you did it.

I hope this wasn't too out of place.

meesha

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RE: O'Reilly sacrificing principles - 12/8/2007 8:15:42 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

So, if you knew that a city of millions had a nuclear bomb hidden in it set to go off within an hour, the principled thing to do according to you would be to treat  the terrorist who you knew had planted it as if he were a shoplifter.

Hire him a lawyer, make sure he's comfortable, keep him away from the blast zone so he's good and safe...

That's principled?

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I was watching O'Reilly last night, on the issue of waterboarding. He said to the person he was interviewing "The difference between you and I, is that you would walk out of the room to preserve your principles, and I would do what I needed to do, to save American lives.". Principles is what makes the difference in people, and if you sacrifice them for the supposed greater good, there is no difference between the evil we see, and the evil we become. When you sacrifice principles, you are killing the soul of what this country was founded on. Americans sacrificed their lives on principle to found this country, and it will take the sacrifice of American lives to keep our principles (and I do not mean war). Once we give up our liberties and principles, there are no defining characteristics that seperates the US from anyone else. This is something that has been lost on so many administrations in the past 30 odd years.

Live well,
Orion



The problem with the "Jack Bauer/24" hypothetical,is that is really never happens that way.

It`s like the guy refusing to wear seat belts,because of the one in a billion chance that he`ll be driving off a cliff in flames,and would need to be un-buckled ,just in case.It doesn`t make sense,when you consider how badly it could back-fire on you.

That`s the chances of getting a bad guy with actionable Intel.But as soon as you establish that it`s ok to torture(because of the "Jack Bauer",scenario),every pus-head from the president on down to the lowest guy,will drive a truck through that loophole.

I heard a BBC report(years ago),that said 9 out of ten detainees at  Abu-ghraib prison,was routinely tortured and or abused in the most humiliating ways.Was that the "torture them all,let god sort`m out" mentality?

This is why there is a no torture policy in the millitary.It`s because they know that their personal will be treated to torture and abuse,if we open the gates of hell and make torture legal.


http://americanaffairs.suite101.com/article.cfm/torture_and_television

http://www.hollywood.com/news/US_Army_Invites_Sutherland_to_Give_Anti_Torture_Speech/3662740

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6510593.stm

Of course though,Sanity and the other "brave guys"(lol),would only torture the bad guys.Innocent people ,don`t get tortured anyway...so why worry?.See the logic?

Not for nothing,torture doesn`t work.A guy will tell you anything to stop the torture,anything.It doesn`t have to accurate,pertinent,or useful info,a guy will say anything you want.That`s the point of breaking a man,to make him say anything,like they did with our POWs in Asia.

And that`s why the military is four square against softening or weakening the Geneva Convention.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 12/8/2007 8:19:56 AM >

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RE: O'Reilly sacrificing principles - 12/8/2007 8:18:30 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IdiotMale

I wonder how many of you would agree with O'Reily if it it meant saving the life or lives of someone you loved.


Torturing prisoners under the Color of Law is ALWAYS WRONG.

If O'Reilly feel that breaking the law is the only option, then he should JOYFULLY go to prison to pay the penalty for CHOOSING to break the law, and his oath to Protect and Defend the Constitution and Laws.



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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

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RE: O'Reilly sacrificing principles - 12/8/2007 8:20:26 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		You can't "fight nice" with al qeada.
They've proven that over and over again.
Also, they are not a signatory to the Geneva Conventions.
Forget torturing them, they can be shot as spies *under* the Geneva Conventions.
I'm waiting for the firing squads in GTMO!
Why are we letting them live for so long?
And "water boarding" isn't "torture!" We used to do that to each other on "Hell Night" at sea! Grow a pair!
Strapping those goat ropers down to a dental chair and trying out some new drills would be "torture".
To hear some people talk these days if those savages were served breakfast 10 minutes late that would be "torture."
I can't understand why people think we have to be "nice" to terrorists but it's "ok" if they're "not nice" to us.
That's cognitive dissonance.
They think that we should treat these savages as if they were entitled to the protections of the Geneva Conventions but when al qeada cuts our guys heads off that's "ok?"
We need to get out of the Geneva Conventions as well as a lot of other "global" or "world" orgs.
They do us absolutely no good! "Put these handcuffs on and step into the ring."
Nice guys finish last in war.

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 12/8/2007 8:25:12 AM >

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RE: O'Reilly sacrificing principles - 12/8/2007 8:20:41 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
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From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

So, if you knew that a city of millions had a nuclear bomb hidden in it set to go off within an hour, the principled thing to do according to you would be to treat the terrorist who you knew had planted it as if he were a shoplifter.

Hire him a lawyer, make sure he's comfortable, keep him away from the blast zone so he's good and safe...

That's principled?



In a Nation of Laws, with Due Process and Equal Protection of The Laws, yes.

In a Totalitarian Dictatorship, then no.

Of course, your hypothetical case is absurd, but there it is. You either HAVE honesty and integrity, or you don't.



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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: O'Reilly sacrificing principles - 12/8/2007 8:25:57 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Its only stupid if you fail to understand the premise. Things are often exaggerated in order to forcefully make a given point... so that even slow learners may understand what is being said.



Reductio ad absurdum works for mathematical proofs, and formal logic.

Here it's just rationalizing torture and the destruction of the Constitutional Republic.

If the US is willing to throw away the Constitution to save itself, is there ANYTHING WORTHY OF BEING SAVED?

If an individual soldier feels that it's "The Only Way To Save People", than that torturer should GLADLY submit himself for judgment of his crime.

Not shredding and burning the evidence of those crimes.






< Message edited by farglebargle -- 12/8/2007 8:26:17 AM >

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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: O'Reilly sacrificing principles - 12/8/2007 8:27:23 AM   
farglebargle


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quote:

Nice guys finish last in war.


Get back to us when Congress declares one.

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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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