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RE: What to do when you don't like what you do. - 12/13/2007 5:51:39 PM

petdave

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quote:

ORIGINAL: patwi
Have any of you ever been in the same situation? What do you do when you want to change your kink? Is that even possible?

i've tried a lot of things over a dozen years or so. Therapy, medication, normal repression, self-administered aversion therapy, sublimation... no luck so far. i've heard some VERY mixed reviews on finding religion, but you could give that a shot

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RE: What to do when you don't like what you do. - 12/13/2007 6:08:42 PM

SayaNereida

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quote:

ORIGINAL: patwi

I've tried to think it through on those terms. In the end I just come down to "The weak submit to the strong" sort of line of thought. I just don't see strength in it. And that's why I don't want anything to do with it, myself.

You've found yourself drawn to it, you thought about it, you've explored it a bit; at least enough to form an opinion. Unfortunately, it is a part of who you are, I say 'unfortunately' because it appears from your own words that it is not a part of you that you are comfortable or happy about.

My questions are these: How have you seen submissiveness portrayed? Meaning, 'acts' of submission have you seen? Whom have you seen being submissive?

How your opinion was formed may be the key.

Just my .02 cents
Saya

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RE: What to do when you don't like what you do. - 12/13/2007 6:37:00 PM

bipolarber

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I've never seen my submission as being a form of weakness. Rather, I see it as part and parcel of my Taoist philosophy. I "flow" with the power of my Domme, and (without striking too weird of an anology) we surf through the scene together. Her the surfer, me the board.

You seem to have it stuck in your head that submission = pathetic weakness on your part. Since you actually haven't tried playing yet, I can see where that idea might hold sway with you. Trust me, just like how sex itself looks awkward and maybe even silly to an outside observer, submission is an entirely different experience when you are in it, first person.

My suggestion would be to try it a little bit, and see how you like being the center of attention, then move on from there.

If you still really hate it, and everything about it, you can always back away from it. Join a local church (try to pick a sect that hates all things sexual) and let them help train you to continue to hate your own fantasies. They're good at that sort of thing. They can assign all kinds of punishments that you have to submit to when you confess your "sins" and...

...oh, wait...

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RE: What to do when you don't like what you do. - 12/13/2007 6:51:04 PM

Noah

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan

No, you can't change your kink. At least not without therapy, and you refuse that.

So the day after the first therapist got his license was the first day in history when anyone could ever "change their kink"?

The magical powers attributed to "therapists" represent a myth at least as powerful and sociologically interesting as either Dragons of Faeries. In fact maybe it is an amalgam of those two.

There is a competing theory, Leanan, which holds that people can intentionally grow and change by a process of introspection, communing with caring friends, and careful practice. All this with not a therapist in sight.

Wacky, huh?

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RE: What to do when you don't like what you do. - 12/13/2007 7:35:07 PM

ShaktiSama

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quote:

ORIGINAL: patwi

Yeah this is why I didn't admit the submissive thing at first. I've heard the "submission = strength" argumetns...I just don't see it.

Try falling backward into the arms of another person some time.

That takes strength that most people will never have.

Submission is trust. It is faith. It is love. And these things require strength.

Judging by your posts I would say you have some false notions about dominance. Like many--including some members of this site who actually call themselves "dominants", when what they really are is crudely illiterate barbaric swine--you seem to have mistaken dominance for "strength" and "strength" for brutality and criminal abuse.

Have you ever seen a mother holding her baby in her arms? Who has the "strength" in that relationship? Who is "dominant"?

I would agree with you, that those who bow to the wicked or cringe before the brutal in this world are despicable creatures. But there is more than one way to yield and more than one motive for offering another submission. Every warrior, holy man or woman in the history of the world has had to learn to submit and serve. They do it out of strength, not weakness. You can submit as a victim, yes, but you can also submit as a hero, a saint, a brat, a martyr, a child, a prisoner, a queen, a whore--even a diety. What was Prometheus if not a submissive?

From my point of view, what you are suffering from is pride. Pride has led to hate--of yourself, of other women, of men. To shame--loathing what you are. To mutilation of your spirit--refusing to even think about things that would fulfill you as a person. To lying and withholding yourself from your spouse--denying the full bond you promised when you married and deceiving the one you love every day about who you really are.

And funny...society seems to be blindly marching along its vapid way whether you live an authentic life or not, deosn't it? No one seems to notice or care that you are such a very very good girl who never challenges their notions of what women should want or need in private moments with a lover.

Damned ungrateful of them, I would say. But hey, you might as well keep living according to their values, right? Even though these notions of what you "should" be make you miserable, fill you with self-loathing, and keep you from really enjoying your sex life.

Seems to me that you're already submitting, OP. You're just not submitting to the right person.

Namely...yourself.

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RE: What to do when you don't like what you do. - 12/13/2007 7:45:07 PM

BondageSlaveMN

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quote:

ORIGINAL: patwi

As the title sort of suggests, I have soemthing of a problem. I don't want the BDSM orientation which I seem to be wired for. I've read the articles, I've watched the forums, I've educated myself. And still - I detest the fantasies I have, I detest the things that I secretly think about because no matter what I do, in my mind it is not a "good" thing to be.

Have any of you ever been in the same situation? What do you do when you want to change your kink? Is that even possible?

Yeah, this feeling describes some of my kink to a T. There are things, that once I have done them, I feel absolutely shameful about yet I am compelled to do them anyway. Honestly speaking, for me, I do these things because of a messed up belief structure that is has resulted from traumas of the past. I know this about myself yet I cannot seem to stop myself from repeating the cycle. Honestly, if you hate your kink you may need to change yourself in a grand way. I don't mean to preach therapy, but cognitive therapy might be able to help you see your kinks for what they really are or even rid yourself of them. I, unfortunately, have had no success with this method, so instead I have accepted that I have these kinks and they are here to stay. I have chosen to embrace them and view them as a good thing rather than a fault.

Edit: I read that you do not feel you can go to therapy. When I say cognitive therapy, I do not mean that you must go to an actual therapist. You can practice cognitive therapy without a mentor, you'll just need to know how to do it properly. If you're interested, I can give you a few ideas as I've spent more than my share of time learning these techniques.

< Message edited by BondageSlaveMN -- 12/13/2007 7:49:12 PM >

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RE: What to do when you don't like what you do. - 12/13/2007 7:45:25 PM

sexyred1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: patwi

I understand what you're saying. But - I'm embarrased to have even the tiniest part of me be that like weak, submissive woman that I detest when I see her in day to day life. I Know using that "W" word will draw the ire of most of you, but this is just the way I feel about it, I am being honest.

See, that is your problem, right there. You THINK you see submissive women who you deem weak, every day. Where do you think you see these women? On the subway? In the grocery store? In the mall?

Would it surprise you to know that you might see, say, someone, like ME, in a boardroom, making huge presentations to CEO's and commanding a room? I bet you would not believe that I was submissive if you saw me in action.

Why? Because submissives don't wear their submissive identity on their sleeve or like a badge. It is not weak, in fact, it takes great strength and self awareness to know yourself and your needs.

It is far weaker to fear your own desires and it is most weak to be in denial about what might make you happy.

Please stop deluding yourself with the labels you have read about sub/Dom/slave etc. in all the books or on HBO, there are as many types of submissives as there are snowflakes and some are weak, but weak as people, but most are strong as hell.

I respect someone who challenges themselves to grow, rather than someone who remains stagnant out of fear.

< Message edited by sexyred1 -- 12/13/2007 7:47:46 PM >

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RE: What to do when you don't like what you do. - 12/13/2007 8:12:30 PM

StarlightSoul

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I understand what you're saying. I have, for as long as I can remember, been told that depending on anyone else is weakness, to give up my control is weakness. At the urging of people here I started talking to someone a few weeks ago. It has been hard. I am a very shy person.

I can't say that you're wrong in your beliefs because it seems that they may be so securely set into your mind that you can't see around them. I can say, from experience, that to ignore what you feel and want may be enough to break you. You speak of weakness and strength as though they are black and white but they are more shades of grey.
My suggestion is this; take a step back, and look at what you truly want. Seriously think about therapy. Truly think about what the experience people here are saying, they have more combined experience than any good therapist. Last but not least, follow your heart. The mind feels fear, may be blinded by it, but the heart sees more clearly what you truly need. When you close your eyes and focus on the problem listen through the part of you that calls submission weak and try to hear what your heart says.

I'm very very new to this lifestyle, take this post as you may.

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Nothing is weaker than water; yet against those things which are hard and strong, nothing can surpass it, nor stand in its way.

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RE: What to do when you don't like what you do. - 12/13/2007 8:35:19 PM

Tigrita

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It doesn't make any more sense to hate the part of you that is drawn to submission any more than to hate yourself for being straight, or being a woman. You are still the same strong woman who is independent, self-assured, resourceful, all the things you admire in strong women. You are also submissive (it seems, or at least you are curious and drawn to it). These don't negate each other. They are different, interconnected facets of your beautiful, complex, human psyche. Don't pigeon-hole yourself and think that your entire identity and everything you admire about yourself because you've discovered, or begun to accept something new about yourself. This is just another facet to add to your identity, and your list of strengths.

Take care.

~ J

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Success is making life happen, versus just letting life happen to you.

"Many of the things I enjoy, I enjoy because I don't enjoy them." - Charlotte

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RE: What to do when you don't like what you do. - 12/13/2007 9:07:40 PM

LittleWench

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quote:

I'm embarrased to have even the tiniest part of me be that like weak, submissive woman that I detest when I see her in day to day life.

You've asked a forum populated with embarrasingly weak s-types... why would you ask for the opinions or advice of those who are contemptible?

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RE: What to do when you don't like what you do. - 12/14/2007 4:23:30 AM

TysGalilah

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patwi

perhaps I am not in the proper "mood" today to reply to this.

still..

so, if you don't want to.....don't.

my grandmother, bless her dear departed self....was a staunch believer that masturbation was bad. That it actually caused chemicals to invade the brain and made the person weak, blind and insane, little by little. Why? who the heck knows...probably some of the religious people she hung out with. Maybe just some preconceived notion she manufactured in her mind to justify her lack of wanting to do it.

Didn't make it so.
Didn't make it right for her.
Didn't make it wrong for me or any other person that feels different about the desire.

So...don't masturbate Grandma...she ate herself into her grave and was nearly blind and actually a little on the mentally imbalanced side.........but she DIDNT masturbate !!! thank goodness.

my point?
hmmm I probably have one.

You have a "notion" about the term "submissive".
You feel the feelings but reject them because of a definition??
or a preconceived notion?

why not reject the notion and the definition, rather than rejecting your feelings and desires??????

or
don't.

are you posting this because
you want a group of people to convince you otherwise?
or
you want those of us who embrace the feelings of submission to justify our desires and selves???

you seem to be arguing with those who have decided to attempt both of the above.....so ...perhaps the answer for you lies only within you..
what is right or wrong for me, may not be right or wrong for you ..

the journey of self-discovery is mostly about the journey and only partially about the end discovery.
Like picking up a book and reading the last 2 pages first.
You know the end results.....but what did you miss along the way ?? an understanding? self-awareness?

argue...go ahead
reject things you don't completely understand..
don't masturbate because you might go blind.

or...

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galilah

.."There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. " Edith Wharton

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RE: What to do when you don't like what you do. - 12/14/2007 6:38:18 AM

OmegaG

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I agree with you 100%. I've been a single mom for 18 years, because I am financially stable I draw men who would be perfectly happy living under my roof and allowing me to be the one in control, and I've done it with disasterous effects.

After alot of soul searching I realized why I had such a bad time with relationships, I am happy when I play the support role in the partnership, but past expereince and societal convention has also made it difficult to trust that a partner will take the lead in the relationship.

It takes alot of trust and vulnerability for me to follow and that takes more strenght on my part then keeping a tight reign on my life.

Being submissive means that you have enough strenght and faith in your partner, to give up control and simply trust that the partner that you are with is competent enough to follow is far harder then to be independent and closed from the vulnerability.

quote:

ORIGINAL: batshalom

patwi, your posts seem fear-based. You are afraid to open up this side of yourself, and thus you are weak in this instance. It takes a strong woman to surrender herself to a man's whim - try it for any length of time and you'll see what I mean, especially in the early stages when you're so sure that submission is weakness, while you're still feeling your independence. This is not something you will understand until you do it and lose the smugness of being a strong, wildheart, independent "sub."

To push back your own desires and needs to attend to someone else's, when his desires don't even begin to match your own, and doing this on a regular basis, requires tremendous strength and self-discipline. Face it - it's scary (which also becomes the draw, and then becomes normal). And maybe Noah's right about you getting off on the self-masochism of non-surrender. I like to withhold things from myself (and to have things withheld from me) too.

Before you call me weak, come walk in my shoes for a day. I'm a fulltime mom with two UM's under eight, soon a fulltime doctoral student, have a fulltime career, eight pets, and a mortgage, and I do it all by myself. I identify as a submissive. Weak? Honey, my life makes strong independent wild women beg for mercy.

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RE: What to do when you don't like what you do. - 12/14/2007 8:11:30 AM

DesFIP

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quote:

ORIGINAL: patwi

Therapy is out of the question. I'm very much a person who would never admit to needing it, and would never go even if I did because it would feel like admitting a persoanl weakness. If I can't come to the solution of soemthing, I won't ask someone else to do it for me, simply.

As for what exactly bothers me? See above, I guess. I see it as an admittance to having a weakness which I hate.

I know I know, and yes I am prepared for flames.

If you needed your appendix out, would you feel it a weakness to hire a surgeon to do it for you? If the IRS audited you, would you feel it would be a weakness to take a really good tax accountant along to deal with them? Is it a weakness to call a plumber to fix a broken pipe that is pouring water into the house?

As far as submission goes, the more you fight it, the more the thoughts and desires will occupy your time.

Partly what's going on is that you've got this picture of a doormat in your mind, one who is prostituted and badly beaten, left with broken bones to get herself to the ER.

How about a new picture to put in your mind; one of a CEO and an executive assistant. Do you think anyone who is not the absolute boss is weak and despicable? What about the Exec VIP, he/she isn't the boss, but they are the boss' right hand person.

Quite honestly, you are the boss, you choose who to accept a job from and when to quit that job. The same applies in therapy, the therapists work for you. You interview them, you pay them, you decide what issues you want to work on and you fire them if they don't fit your needs.

A dominant/submissive relationship is just that, a relationship. You may make the morning coffee but he takes out the garbage. You figure out for yourself what you need and then you find someone compatible.

Submissiveness, basically is just doing things for people you love. You love him so you crawl out of a cold bed and make the coffee. He loves you so he deals with the mechanic when the car is making weird noises. The only difference here is that we discuss before getting into a serious relationship who does what, and what we need, instead of revealing it little by little in the years following the start of the relationship.

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RE: What to do when you don't like what you do. - 12/14/2007 8:17:55 AM

Qithoras

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I've noticed you use the term "want" alot.

You don't want to be this, or that.
Some people don't want brown hair either, but it's a part of them none the less, even with bad dye jobs.

Just a thought.

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Knowing yourself is true wisdom.
Mastering others is strength.
Mastering yourself is true power.

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RE: What to do when you don't like what you do. - 12/14/2007 8:18:48 AM

IrishMist

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quote:

Have any of you ever been in the same situation? What do you do when you want to change your kink? Is that even possible?

I don't have any 'kinks'. So trying to change that would be useless.

However, there have been plenty of times that I wished I could re-wire myself.

It's proved harder than I thought.

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RE: What to do when you don't like what you do. - 12/14/2007 8:43:31 AM

patwi

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Sheesh I log off for the night and the thread explodes. :)

A few things : First, why is everyone suggesting therapy? No offence but honestly I find things to be much more satisfying when I can work through them on my own and not have to pay someone to do it for me.

Also - to whoever sugegsting I may be a dom? No...no. I've tried imagining things from that standpoint and the reaction I get is "meh." I picked the term switch because I didn't want to identify with one or the other. I think though that with women I could dom. Men? no. so I guess that makes me a switch? I could never submit to a woman, it jhust doesn't.."do it" for me.

Anyhow - Noah a lot of what you say makes sense, but I can assure you I'm not enjoying this at all. I'm no self-sadist, heh. Let me clarify - I'm not interested in a 24/7 TPE m/s relationship. There's just no way I could do it. I'm wrestling with trying to balance those things I secretly think about with the actual me, my personality.

When I say I don't see being a submissive person as being a "good" thing, I mean that when I see a submissive person in day to day life, it's usually the wife silently following her husband apologizing at every turn, or the girlfriend faking interest or disinterest in things making every effort to please her boyfriend and never herself. The last thing I want is people to see me and think "Oh...she's a submissive." I know that I am rambling, and therefore not making much sense.

More to come after I finish my coffee and let things simmer....heh.

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RE: What to do when you don't like what you do. - 12/14/2007 8:53:47 AM

againstthewind

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i myself, in the last year have looked within and found who i am, and although i accept that i am submissive and know deep within my needs...i still struggle with fullfilling these needs, but know that if i do not, i will never be me.
i think after reading this post, that most have a journey of struggling to accept who we are and to actually take the journey farther to actaully be who we are.
have you accepted that fact that you are submissive and just not sure what path to take or are you still arguing with yourself. i know for myself that days that i accept and embrace who i am, i have such a peacefull, self condident feeling i have never experienced in all of my life. I myself am at the stage that i need to put the society based fears aside and be true to myself and be me.
so i guess my advice to you is to take baby steps and 1st of all accept who you are, start embracing it....and continue onto the journey of being YOU.....
Good Luck

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RE: What to do when you don't like what you do. - 12/14/2007 8:56:03 AM

sexyred1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: patwi

Sheesh I log off for the night and the thread explodes. :)

A few things : First, why is everyone suggesting therapy? No offence but honestly I find things to be much more satisfying when I can work through them on my own and not have to pay someone to do it for me.

Also - to whoever sugegsting I may be a dom? No...no. I've tried imagining things from that standpoint and the reaction I get is "meh." I picked the term switch because I didn't want to identify with one or the other. I think though that with women I could dom. Men? no. so I guess that makes me a switch? I could never submit to a woman, it jhust doesn't.."do it" for me.

Anyhow - Noah a lot of what you say makes sense, but I can assure you I'm not enjoying this at all. I'm no self-sadist, heh. Let me clarify - I'm not interested in a 24/7 TPE m/s relationship. There's just no way I could do it. I'm wrestling with trying to balance those things I secretly think about with the actual me, my personality.

When I say I don't see being a submissive person as being a "good" thing, I mean that when I see a submissive person in day to day life, it's usually the wife silently following her husband apologizing at every turn, or the girlfriend faking interest or disinterest in things making every effort to please her boyfriend and never herself. The last thing I want is people to see me and think "Oh...she's a submissive." I know that I am rambling, and therefore not making much sense.

More to come after I finish my coffee and let things simmer....heh.

Unbelievable. Not only do you come back and dismiss the great replies you got by saying the thread "explodes" but by you repeating the above underlined part after reading what I, and other far from weak submissives wrote you, shows me that I wasted my precious time and excellent writing skills on you.

It appears you can talk and talk at the forum but you lack the requisite listening and comprehension skills necessary to learn about yourself.

I doubt that coffee will help what ails you, girlfriend.

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RE: What to do when you don't like what you do. - 12/14/2007 8:59:39 AM

patwi

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By explodes I mean...it got a lot of hits. I don't see this as a bad thing?

And the underlined bit was me laying out the part that trips me up. I love all the replies I've had. I can't change my brain overnight. This is a lot for me to think on and a lot for me to process here. That part you pointed out is exactly my hang up. Did you expect me to be able to snap my fngers and say "Oh, ok, issue fixed."? I can't. I'm working on it, slowly.

Edited to add : Those images I gave an example of are what I see in my head when I think of the word "submissive." Yes, that is changing/will change but I won't apologise for being honest and laying on the line the hang up I have over the word. If I didn't want to change it, I wouldn't have even posted here. Had you expected me to post this morning saying "Woo! I'm a submissive now, I have seen the light, all that was wrong with me, all the false notions I had have evaoprated!"? Please...show me some patience. And understand that what I post isn't meant to offend anyone, it's meant to illustrate why I'm having problems getting past something. If that makes sense.

< Message edited by patwi -- 12/14/2007 9:04:05 AM >

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RE: What to do when you don't like what you do. - 12/14/2007 9:05:08 AM

sexyred1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: patwi

By explodes I mean...it got a lot of hits. I don't see this as a bad thing?

And the underlined bit was me laying out the part that trips me up. I love all the replies I've had. I can't change my brain overnight. This is a lot for me to think on and a lot for me to process here. That part you pointed out is exactly my hang up. Did you expect me to be able to snap my fngers and say "Oh, ok, issue fixed."? I can't. I'm working on it, slowly.

Ok, thank you for clarifying. I thought you were being dismissive of everyone trying to help you, I appreciate that. So many people ask questions here and get so many great replies and then just keep saying, no, no, no I cannot do it or they argue, and some of us get a bit, shall we say, defensive when we try to point out things that we experienced in our own journeys.

I get that no issue can be fixed, but you do keep saying you do not want therapy, I get it, you want to work on it yourself. But in reading between the lines you sound very confused about your desires and rejecting them at the same time.

I underlined what you wrote because I really took offense at how you seem to think that submissives just walk around like zombies and silently obey. I already told you we come from all walks of life, all manner of corporate executives, we are high powered women, we make decisions all day in all areas of our lives.

Remember that being submissive has gradations, nothing is black and white, everything possesses shades of grey, that is perhaps how you should view your possible interest in being submissive. You may be just heather grey while someone else is charcoal grey.

My main point to you here is that there is no one way to do anything, especially be a submissive or a Dominant. But there is only one way to live your life and that is without fear of trying things that you feel inside; things that you think might fulfill you.

Do not let preconceived notions of what D/s relationships are interfere with your own relationship building; be your own architect.

< Message edited by sexyred1 -- 12/14/2007 9:09:01 AM >

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