RE: Stella Undesirable?

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YourhandMyAss -> RE: Stella Undesirable? (12/15/2007 12:13:33 AM)
I am supposing she was stoped cause she looks like a male and dresses like a woman? How else would one figure someone else out for an "obvious male" or what ever their logic was?

NorthernGent -> RE: Stella Undesirable? (12/15/2007 1:39:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ghitaPVH The Law draws the line at what ever is between a persons legs. They have to. That's the root of the issue, Ghita. In the modern age, the West is increasingly adopting a liberal approach to transgender, and genitalia is not the universal definition of gender. The Gender Recognition Act of 2004 (UK) enables legal recognition with a whole host of clauses which ultimately mean a person is the gender of his/her choice. Stella's passport and medical records state female, according to the OP. You could argue it's US law, i.e. that's the way it is - take it or leave it, which is fair enough. I'm sure there are cultural differences underpinning this, one being religion. Best wishes to Stella, I couldn't possibly imagine what you're going through; I have to ask, however, did you do some research around US attitudes to difference and foreigners? If not, you should have. Edited to add: I agree with the poster who said that some negative PR for those involved may prove more useful than contacting officials.

seeksfemslave -> RE: Stella Undesirable? (12/15/2007 1:58:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Sounds like a soap opera to me. Yes I know I am wicked, but Stella lives off the taxpayer and believes it is right that she should do so. After all she is a playwrite The US has a less conciliatory attitude to such members of the glitterati, I am happy to say, seeksfemslave: If she is a playwright then how is she being supported by the taxpayers and not the ticket buyers for her plays? thompson (1) Stella posted a few weeks ago that she was "off" to Poland where her literary/language skills could be expected to get more government support than was the case at present in the UK (2) In the UK most theatrical activity is subsidised to a large degree by the taxpayer. The higher up the social scale the appeal ie Ballet or Opera the greater the subsidy. It is therefore most unlikely that Stella's efforts are free of tax support. So you see my disdain is directed towards non self supporting arty types not transexuals. I dont suppose that being "arty" was why she was stopped but it has always been a requirement of temporary entry into the US that adequate means of personal support is available. Again sensible IMO. I do not know how a person presenting as a women but whose documents state male may be legally treated when attempting to enter the US. But in these troubled times I would think vigilance should be the order of the day.

angelikaJ -> RE: Stella Undesirable? (12/15/2007 3:22:52 AM)
Think about this: I am certain that this sort of thing happens to people who travel here every single day. There are many people in this country who are more than willing to give up their own privacy and personal freedoms to feel a little bit safer. If we permit that to happen, then is it any real surprise that this happens..and there is not even so much as a mention of it in the news? As to the issue of gender classification being determined by what is between someone's legs (and the fact that she has breasts was of no consequence)...I wish I could say I am surprised. Outraged, yes...surprised no. To the OP...it is hard to engage in a pro-active stance without additional information about the current status of the situation.

ItalianSMistress -> RE: Stella Undesirable? (12/15/2007 10:21:25 AM)
First let Me express how deeply sorry I am for your treatment, Stella. I am not even american and I am ashamed. I am further sorry for those on here that are ignorant and dont know anything about human sexuality. I have dated a couple of transexuals in My day, and have seen enough to make My head hurt. It is a birth defect to be born in the wrong body and how dare they call that undesirable. Would they call someone missing a limb or with CP undesirable? Seriously? That is awful.

thompsonx -> RE: Stella Undesirable? (12/15/2007 7:20:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Sounds like a soap opera to me. Yes I know I am wicked, but Stella lives off the taxpayer and believes it is right that she should do so. After all she is a playwrite The US has a less conciliatory attitude to such members of the glitterati, I am happy to say, seeksfemslave: If she is a playwright then how is she being supported by the taxpayers and not the ticket buyers for her plays? thompson (1) Stella posted a few weeks ago that she was "off" to Poland where her literary/language skills could be expected to get more government support than was the case at present in the UK (2) In the UK most theatrical activity is subsidised to a large degree by the taxpayer. The higher up the social scale the appeal ie Ballet or Opera the greater the subsidy. It is therefore most unlikely that Stella's efforts are free of tax support. So you see my disdain is directed towards non self supporting arty types not transexuals. Would the military,police,fire protection,NASA,public supported schools etc. also fall into the "Non self supporting" sort that you do not approve of? I dont suppose that being "arty" was why she was stopped but it has always been a requirement of temporary entry into the US that adequate means of personal support is available. Again sensible IMO. The OP states pretty clearly that Stella not only had money in her pocket but also food and lodging validated. I do not know how a person presenting as a women but whose documents state male may be legally treated when attempting to enter the US. The OP clearly states that Stella's documents describe her as female not male. But in these troubled times I would think vigilance should be the order of the day. I would agree with you, that when a country's government is taken over by a cabal of warmongering thugs, that indeed these are troubled times.

Sinergy -> RE: Stella Undesirable? (12/15/2007 8:06:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer Holy fuck. This calls for a legal defense fund and a serious lawsuit. I agree. I would throw some money in the kitty to help her fix things. The US Govt's treatment of her just blows goats. Please give her my best wishes, she is one of the special people which Collarme.com has connected me up with. Sinergy

seeksfemslave -> RE: Stella Undesirable? (12/16/2007 3:23:25 AM)
quote: MrT Would the military,police,fire protection,NASA,public supported schools etc. also fall into the "Non self supporting" sort that you do not approve of? They are non self supporting but necessary in a modern society so therefore my answer is NO I support our NHS and were I American would support a tax financed health sytem there. quote: me then MrT I do not know how a person presenting as a women but whose documents state male may be legally treated when attempting to enter the US. The OP clearly states that Stella's documents describe her as female not male. My mistake, but it doesnt alter the basic problem, still one sex dressed as the other. It seems to me that the right thing for Stella to have done would have been to find out what are the correct procedures for travel in to the US for someone in her transitional bodily state and then abide by them. IMO her posts are replete with self absorbtion and almost certainly not completely true. Do I believe she met what she considered to be bad behaviour.? YES. Do I believe that she was not truculant or aggressively demanding her "rights" NO

BloodLuna -> RE: Stella Undesirable? (12/16/2007 11:59:37 AM)
Halley: luna wishes to add her best wishes to Stella. what an outrage the actions of this administration are and luna hopes that Britan will make a huge enough stink about this to make it international news. international outrage may grease a few wheels. Are there any Transsexual/Gender Rights Groups in America that would take up the fight for Stella? You know - Halley - check with the Unitarian Universal Church people. wait . . . luna knows . . let her explain . . . UUC is a type of church organization that is entirely non-denominational. it is based on the belief in love. this church welcomes christians, pagans, buddists . . . any one of any spirituality. It is also one of the (maybe the only) church organizations that openly welcomes gay and transgender members to come and be spiritual in a community based on loving and acceptance. http://www.uua.org/visitors/justicediversity/index.shtml might give you a start. please feel free to cmail luna if you want her help. luna is pretty good with researching and is more than happy to commit some time to helping you find answers/avenues. its a much better use of bed rest than the Law and Order marathons! luna

LadyDemonikaTS -> RE: Stella Undesirable? (12/16/2007 1:45:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave My mistake, but it doesnt alter the basic problem, still one sex dressed as the other. It seems to me that the right thing for Stella to have done would have been to find out what are the correct procedures for travel in to the US for someone in her transitional bodily state and then abide by them. Clarification - she is one sex living as another, undergoing treatment for it (meds, therapy, etc - Charing Cross). Being TS is more than "dressing up". The thing is, with the "transitional bodily state" thing you say... there are no procedures I think. I have yet to find any (and yes, I am searching, in regards to US, UK, Canada...). The only thing I can say is that entering another country in transition has to be done cautiously (as I found out myself entering the UK). Bring with you copies of all supporting documents as well as contact methods for the people treating you. Name change form, documents from doc, etc, and even if post op, bring those as well. Being TS we shouldn't have to just sit at home or only travel within our own country. And we shouldn't have to do research worthy of a university thesis on the subject as well in order to travel to another one.

NorthernGent -> RE: Stella Undesirable? (12/16/2007 2:07:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyDemonikaTS Being TS we shouldn't have to just sit at home or only travel within our own country. And we shouldn't have to do research worthy of a university thesis on the subject as well in order to travel to another one. I agree to a large extent; this isn't exactly an advert for human rights, but, in the current climate, it would have been useful to make an attempt to understand the possible consequences of landing at a US airport - 'not saying that it would have made any difference, mind you. In a perfect world, man, woman and beast would be afforded freedom of expression, as opposed to non-members being ostracised; the reality is far from perfect.

slaveboyforyou -> RE: Stella Undesirable? (12/16/2007 2:21:15 PM)
I don't know both sides of the story, so I have avoided making comments as this and Stella's thread have progressed. I will say this; men undergoing sexual reassignment are placed in the men's part of detention centers for a reason. The correctional staff does it to prevent lawsuits. Stella has every right to call herself a woman, but she still has a penis. If she had been housed with females, one of the females could have made rape or sexual misconduct allegations. That happens a lot, whether you believe it or not. Male police officers are usually required to take extra precautions when transporting female prisoners for that very reason. No matter what your personal views are, men (including transexual men) are still physically stronger than women. The staff at detention centers don't take chances. I am sure Stella is a non-violent, perfectly nice person. But detention staff don't have the luxury of making individual character assessments. I don't doubt that Stella was subjected to snide remarks and prejudice because of her identity. I think that is awful, and it shows unprofessionalism on the parts of the customs and law enforcement officials she dealt with. I honestly don't think she has a case though, because they are not going to admit to this behavior. It really is a matter of their word against hers. It sucks, but that is the way it is.

LadyDemonikaTS -> RE: Stella Undesirable? (12/16/2007 2:27:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent I agree to a large extent; this isn't exactly an advert for human rights, but, in the current climate, it would have been useful to make an attempt to understand the possible consequences of landing at a US airport - 'not saying that it would have made any difference, mind you. In a perfect world, man, woman and beast would be afforded freedom of expression, as opposed to non-members being ostracised; the reality is far from perfect. nods The reality is way far from perfect, sadly. Let's hope that things can be put at least more towards reasonable in the near future. If enough people support putting in "gender identity" into being protected, NATIONALLY, not just state or provincially, then that's at least a start.

LadyDemonikaTS -> RE: Stella Undesirable? (12/16/2007 2:30:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou I don't know both sides of the story, so I have avoided making comments as this and Stella's thread have progressed. I will say this; men undergoing sexual reassignment are placed in the men's part of detention centers for a reason. The correctional staff does it to prevent lawsuits. Stella has every right to call herself a woman, but she still has a penis. If she had been housed with females, one of the females could have made rape or sexual misconduct allegations. That happens a lot, whether you believe it or not. Male police officers are usually required to take extra precautions when transporting female prisoners for that very reason. No matter what your personal views are, men (including transexual men) are still physically stronger than women. The staff at detention centers don't take chances. I am sure Stella is a non-violent, perfectly nice person. But detention staff don't have the luxury of making individual character assessments. I don't doubt that Stella was subjected to snide remarks and prejudice because of her identity. I think that is awful, and it shows unprofessionalism on the parts of the customs and law enforcement officials she dealt with. I honestly don't think she has a case though, because they are not going to admit to this behavior. It really is a matter of their word against hers. It sucks, but that is the way it is. What could have been done is what the UK did with me. Put me in a separate cell, alone, and be segregated at all times from the population. It wasn't a big deal for the overworked guards at Colnbrook, so I don't think it would be for any US facility. I had no problems with how the detention center (jail) staff treated me, and truly appreciated how they did. It made me feel not just safe, but that I was being treated like a human, and with RESPECT.

slaveboyforyou -> RE: Stella Undesirable? (12/16/2007 2:38:13 PM)
Lady Demonika, that would be perfectly acceptable to me too. The problem with that is that U.S. jails are incredibly overcrowded and underfunded. They really don't have the space to do that. Atlanta has a huge crime rate, and I guarantee you their jails are overcapacity as we speak. Prisons do routinely put transgendered individuals into segregated, protective custody. They have to, because transgendered people and gays are routine targets of other offenders. But jails are not the same thing as prisons. They are temporary holding facilities, and they don't have the resources here to seperate everyone.

kdsub -> RE: Stella Undesirable? (12/16/2007 3:07:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyDemonikaTS What could have been done is what the UK did with me. Put me in a separate cell, alone, and be segregated at all times from the population. It wasn't a big deal for the overworked guards at Colnbrook, so I don't think it would be for any US facility. I had no problems with how the detention center (jail) staff treated me, and truly appreciated how they did. It made me feel not just safe, but that I was being treated like a human, and with RESPECT. They did something along those lines for Stella LadyDemonikaTS.. Below is a quote from Stella in another thread. "I was given a small paper cup of water to drink, and when I asked to use the bathroom they took me to a cell and locked me in the cell" Butch

LadyDemonikaTS -> RE: Stella Undesirable? (12/16/2007 4:08:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou Lady Demonika, that would be perfectly acceptable to me too. The problem with that is that U.S. jails are incredibly overcrowded and underfunded. They really don't have the space to do that. Atlanta has a huge crime rate, and I guarantee you their jails are overcapacity as we speak. Prisons do routinely put transgendered individuals into segregated, protective custody. They have to, because transgendered people and gays are routine targets of other offenders. But jails are not the same thing as prisons. They are temporary holding facilities, and they don't have the resources here to seperate everyone. The UK, and Canada too to an extent, suffer from the same problem - overcrowding. However, there are facilities that are always available, even if just for a temporary basis. The detention center I was held in, Colnbrook, is detention center only in name really. It was a prison by all other means. Believe me, and ask anyone who has been there.

Termyn8or -> RE: Stella Undesirable? (12/16/2007 6:28:36 PM)
Don't know what to say. Starting my own thread. T

Halley -> RE: Stella Undesirable? (12/16/2007 8:46:37 PM)
In the US it is unlawful to put anyone transitioning in a cell with the general populace no matter if they are male or female. This is way a US law officer told me.

slaveboyforyou -> RE: Stella Undesirable? (12/16/2007 9:51:24 PM)
quote: In the US it is unlawful to put anyone transitioning in a cell with the general populace no matter if they are male or female. This is way a US law officer told me. I don't know what law officer told you that, but I have never seen any law that deals with the subject of transgendered folks in detention centers. I have never seen any law at all that deals with segregation matters in detention facilities. Those kinds of issues are administrative decisions made by the person in charge of the facility. Laws don't generally go into specifics when it comes to the administration of individual detention centers. They are not going to build seperate units for transgendered people anytime soon at any jail or prison in the U.S. There aren't enough transgendered people going into prisons to justify the costs associated with such an endeavour. I can tell you for certain that the overwhelming majority of dentention facilities are never going to house transgendered males with female inmates, or transgendered females with male inmates. It's just not going to happen, and that is just the way it is.

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