RE: Stella Undesirable? (Full Version)

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TheHeretic -> RE: Stella Undesirable? (12/16/2007 10:04:18 PM)

      Not completely accurate, Slaveboy.  I've never heard of a 'transgender' wing anywhere, but Los Angeles County, for example, does have a 'gay block' in their main, downtown facility.  My guess is that would have provoked shrieks of protest as well.


     Go ahead and call the papers.  I hope like hell the reporters do enough digging to find these discussions and start asking about just why this person was trying to enter our country in the first place.  Reading the OP on this thread might send them looking at a very different story than the participants might want.




LadyEllen -> RE: Stella Undesirable? (12/17/2007 7:00:34 AM)

well, I missed this entire thread - my PCs are taken over at weekends by strange little creatures who arrive here Friday night for bed and board until Sunday when they go home to their mom. I have yet to read the other thread on the same subject, but in the meantime I called Stella as soon as I saw it; she sounded tired and irritable, but told me she was OK.

Four years ago, I wrote a document for the headquarters training facility of the police here - advising them how to deal with the likes of us should we ever be arrested. Lets be clear - they knew nothing, zero, zip, nada - about the law, about the people involved, about their medical/ psychological status etc. I tried to educate them - and they really appreciated it, because in the UK at least, and perhaps elsewhere too - they really dont like getting it wrong.

I also played a criminal arrested for training purposes (deception, I think it was) to take them through the scenario - several groups on several occasions. The reaction of the trainees on the desk was priceless, and the interest when the training session was over and I spoke and gave a Q and A session in the auditorium for the whole class was amazing - as was the level of ignorance.

My driving licence was passed around, my passport, all sorts of documentation. All female, with no marker whatever as to what might be between my legs. The police officers present - custody sergeants with many years' experience and newer officers, had no knowledge whatsoever that it was possible to change documents like this. I think I could pretty much guarantee, that of the week's training they did and all the scenarios they went through, their time with me is something they'll remember because it was so unusual and such an eye opener.

What I'm trying to get at is, that ignorance plays at least as much a part in the poor treatment of the likes of us as does any possible malice.

Best route to get things changed is straight to the top in the first instance - embarass the boss into getting her/his people educated and trained.

E





Sinergy -> RE: Stella Undesirable? (12/17/2007 4:14:41 PM)


I am glad you were able to do all that LadyEllen, please let Stella know that I were in her corner and if there is anything I can do to help to let me know.

Sinergy




IilaStarfire -> RE: Stella Undesirable? (12/17/2007 4:29:31 PM)

Oh. My. God.

That is the absolute worst thing I can imagine happening to someone. I feel so ashamed and disgusted at this country I unfortunately call home. They had no cause nor rigth to do that to her!! I can't believe they made those bull-shit charges up just so they could hold her and deport her. Land of the free, equal rights, rights to choose everything.... what a bunch of bullshit, when a human being cannot be who they are psychologically/physically because of who they are physically. Just... so... unbelievable, and made worse because it is believable at the same time...
Nobody, and I mean nobody, deserves to be treated like that... It just is against the supposed rights this joke of a country was supposedly founded on.




YourhandMyAss -> RE: Stella Undesirable? (12/19/2007 12:07:50 AM)

I see nobody answered my question of how they even got the idea to check to make sure gender matched documents.




MissMagnolia -> RE: Stella Undesirable? (12/19/2007 12:11:36 AM)

I think only because this thread dropped off the radar two days ago.




YourhandMyAss -> RE: Stella Undesirable? (12/19/2007 12:19:26 AM)

Ironic I asked two days ago when the thread was brand new lol.




MissMagnolia -> RE: Stella Undesirable? (12/19/2007 12:23:47 AM)

Dunno then. I haven't read the thread. Maybe now it's back in view, someone will answer.[:)]




YourhandMyAss -> RE: Stella Undesirable? (12/19/2007 12:24:36 AM)

do they just decide ok this person looks like an obvious dude but dresses as a woman? or what, what's the reasonable doubt for stopping someone and gender checking them?




LadyEllen -> RE: Stella Undesirable? (12/19/2007 2:15:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: YourhandMyAss

do they just decide ok this person looks like an obvious dude but dresses as a woman? or what, what's the reasonable doubt for stopping someone and gender checking them?


I would expect so yes. I spoke to my brother in UK immigration - here at least they get no instructions to check gender/sex/appearance vs documents. They will stop someone if there's anything amiss generally. Mind you with our human rights laws he'd have to say that as thats what the training would teach - if it went into possibly discriminatory areas - ie stopping Afro Caribbeans as well as those of a certain appearance - butch looking lesbians, camp looking gay guys etc for instance, there'd be big trouble.

As far as I'm aware, there's no marker in my passport to identify my prior gender - I should have expected to be stopped well before now if there were and that were of interest. Theyre not a jovial lot at Prague airport.

In any case, this whole issue is interesting from another point of view in that I now fully expect all genetic females who wear trousers and a jacket to be stopped and deported in future. Dressed as males, with female passports? Got to be terrorists!

And when/if the Pope turns up in the US, for him to get a rough ride too - I mean, a guy wearing a frock? Definitely undesirable.

E




RCdc -> RE: Stella Undesirable? (12/19/2007 4:04:05 AM)

Lady E
Reading your post made me think of a question - if your passport did have an offical mark stating prior gender and say offical gender (these are just examples) do you a) think that may make a difference officially (that would just be your own personal thought) and b) would you find it a compromise if it meant that people could travel without problems?
 
For me, I would be OK with having to answer that question on a passport application and have it indicated on a passport - but then I'm not transgendered.
 
the.dark.




LadyEllen -> RE: Stella Undesirable? (12/19/2007 9:25:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Lady E
Reading your post made me think of a question - if your passport did have an offical mark stating prior gender and say offical gender (these are just examples) do you a) think that may make a difference officially (that would just be your own personal thought) and b) would you find it a compromise if it meant that people could travel without problems?
 
For me, I would be OK with having to answer that question on a passport application and have it indicated on a passport - but then I'm not transgendered.
 
the.dark.

 
Hi
 
Well for me, I would be absolutely horrified to have such an indicator in any of my personal documents, and especially in my passport which I only use when I'm in the vulnerable situation of being in between countries (post and pre immigration checks) and under scrutiny in the first place. All it would take would be one "curious" officer, and I'd be in for hell. And, given that I travel for business mainly, and my business contacts abroad have no idea about me, its not something I would want to risk, to have them contacted for help and maybe react badly.
 
Psychologically, I dont want anything to do with my previous gender. It almost destroyed me, so its not something I'm pleased about or want to be reminded about or have others aware of unless they need to know. As I mentioned before, if I had to go back to being male - say there was some law or something - I'd rather kill myself than die slowly in that coffin.
 
Really, I'm afraid I dont see the argument for indicators either. If someone changes gender, then the gatekeeping for altering legal identity should be sufficient thereafter. If its says female, then the person is female; indeed, it becomes dangerous vs human rights legislation (as adopted by all civilised countries) to start asking for proof. This also answers your second question - a person's attire and presentation is irrelevant - the documents are what count, unless the documents are to be held worthless. But then. I've never had a problem.
 
E




FirmhandKY -> RE: Stella Undesirable? (12/19/2007 9:59:45 AM)

Lady E,

I think AAkasha said it well in the other thread (My two impressions of America) .

The border people will punt you back in a heartbeat if they think there is ANY chance you are coming here and stay.  All discussions, including information on your web site, should have been kept to a simple point: "I am just here to visit friends.  I have no intentions of staying."  In fact, with regards to your surgeries, you should have said, "I have great doctors where I live and am in the middle of a long procedure, why on earth would I want to leave my own country?"

I doubt that Stella's gender really was an issue at all, other than how it impacted on her apparent future possiblity of becoming a "ward" of the US government due to apparent ongoing medical requirments.

It's possible that some of border agents made inappropriate remarks. I find it more likely, however, especially after reading the "Atlanta 2007" page of her website that she talked herself into being refused entry, and now is using her "differences" as a justification and rationalization for those events.

Right now she's mad, and angry, and perhaps when she calms down, she may even realize this. I hope so, because unless one address the true reasons for one's problems, they'll never be able to effectively address them.

Firm




luckydog1 -> RE: Stella Undesirable? (12/19/2007 10:22:38 AM)

Lady Ellen, if the presented ID does not match the person in front of you, it is indeed proper to take a closer look.  Isn't the reality that hundreds of transgendered people cross the US border every year, I bet dozens through Atlanta, and this isn't the norm.  Perhaps the reason you have so little trouble, is that you are a woman living as a woman, not as a way out activist.  You state, you don't want to them to know.  You are a Woman travelling.  Stella seems more to be an activist and a dramatic (she is professionally) transgendered.  If you come in with a chip on your shoulder, of course you will have a problem.  I still think her Internet friend said she was coming to sell plays.  Stellas statement that she could not have spoken to an official is simply unbelievable , yet is the only thing she has to say on it.  Of course if you go to an Airport to meet someone and they don't get off the plane you ask "Why?, Where is my friend/loved one?, did they board?"  And of course if you get caught trying to enter to work with out papers, you get denied entry.   Being transgendered is not an excuse to violate the law, attempting to use it as such doesn't look good.  This is admittedly now publicity and a comercial move/marketing. 




Politesub53 -> RE: Stella Undesirable? (12/19/2007 11:18:34 AM)

Lucky....... Stella arrived at one airport and had yet to change planes, Halley was meeting her at her final destination and was there when the immigration called her house. Halleys mother answered the house phone, as i understand it.




LadyEllen -> RE: Stella Undesirable? (12/19/2007 1:27:46 PM)

Firmhand + Lucky - I'm preferring to take her word for it until there is concrete evidence of inaccuracy, because there is a principle to be debated here, regardless of what might turn out to be another side of the story.

However, I will note in passing here that there is a high incidence of people like me attributing any problems we get into to our trans status - it is perhaps the gender equivalent of so called "playing a race card". Whereas in the situation of an ethnic minority it was thought for a time and perhaps even now amongst some, that because the ethnic minority was not accorded respect by the system it could be argued by those getting into problems that they were subjected to these problems because of their ethnicity, and not because of ordinary violations of the system for which anyone regardless of ethnicity should get into problems.

The only way to overcome this "race card" argument, is to make the system accord proper respect to the ethnic minority, and to ensure at all times that it does accord such respect. The same principle applies in this instance, with the aim being to ensure that no one gets into problems unless they have violated the system, regardless of any other factor inherent to their being. At this stage, despite what some might see as inconsistencies, I feel it is better to deal with the issue as if the trans status was the sole reason for arrest, in order to debate the principles involved, and to leave out until positive proof otherwise is forthcoming the possibility of a "trans card" being played for some effect here.

E




luckydog1 -> RE: Stella Undesirable? (12/19/2007 3:47:52 PM)

Lady Ellen, I take her insistance that because her SO went to the Airport she could not have spoken to an official as concrete evidence of inaccuracy. 




FirmhandKY -> RE: Stella Undesirable? (12/19/2007 4:25:02 PM)

Lady E,

We do, in a round-about way, have the "other side of the story" as provided directly by stella on her website on the page about her Atlanta experience.

She has posted a copy of the US report detailing why she was refused entry into the US:

To: The American Consul, London, England.
Withdrawal of Application/Consular Notification

The above named subject arrived, this date seeking admission as a WT visitor for pleasure. She stated her trip was for an undetermined length of time claiming everything depended on how things went with friends she met over the internet in Mississippi.

She was destined to a US address of XXXX XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXX. She possessed a number of papers listing her US landline as being XXX XXX XXXX. She stated she was just visiting friends for Christmas.

The subject was originally born as a male and named Mark Andrew BATES, born in Dewsbury, U.K. on July 22, 1966. Under the BATES identity she had been issued U.K. Passport number 704726812.

Ms BAKER claims to be a play-write.

At the time of her Application for admission Ms. BAKER possessed around one hundred dollars. She also claimed to have a Bank Card and around one hundred pounds in the Bank in England. She claimed no other assets. She had no evidence of health insurance. She was going through a sex change and appeared to need much medication in this endeavor.

A letter in her possession stated that as of September 21 2007 or around that time Ms. BAKER may have made a claim with Lambeth Southwark and Wadsworth Jobcentre Plus, of Preston, England claiming to be incapacitated for work.

Ms. BAKER states she lived in England in government housing and was basically on welfare there.

The phone number of XXX XXX XXXX was called. CBP Officers asked for Catherine GARRIGA, who has listed as Ms. BAKER'S US Contact. The person answering the phone stated that Catherine GARRIGA was not available. The person did know of the trip of Ms. BAKER. When asked the purpose of the trip, the person stated that Ms. BAKER was coming to the U.S. to sell a play to a theater in Biloxi, Mississippi. They also stated that they believed that Ms. BAKER would also stay to direct the play.

The person also stated that Ms. BAKER should be in possession of the play when she arrived.

Without informing Ms. BAKER of what was discovered in the phone call, she was asked about her most recent play. She stated it was named something like Death during Hurricane Katrina. That historically was a hurricane which adversely effected the gulf coast of Mississippi and nearby states. The claimed name of the play was consistent with one created for the Biloxi area as was stated on the phone. I Computer CD Disc with a play named Death was found in Ms. BAKER'S luggage.

A website was found for Ms. BAKER.

In that website http://stella40bb.tripod.com/id12.html, Ms. BAKER stated:

"CURRENT SITUATION AND PLANS

I have spent much of my time in the UK trying (and failing) to direct 'Death' in London and running drama workshops for people disaffected and rejected by society such as the homeless, hardened crack addicts, alcoholics, women who have suffered abuse and domestic violence.

This has been work in conjunction with the development of my own theory of modern theatre.

I am currently working to relocate to the United States to be with my family and intend to work towards my return to the stage and achieve something which many Americans and others have advised me for years which is to become established in American 'theater'.

This is what I'm working towards, working with people who have lost their former lives during Hurricane Katrina and I would like to devote the rest of my career and life to helping these people find new opportunities and help them rebuild their lives, and through this rebuild their communities, through using my work in theatre, my theory of theatre and my experience as a playwright and stage director.."

During a search of her luggage originals of the photographs found on the website were found. While making the search Ms. BAKER informed Officer XXXXX if an intent or desire to reside in the United States. She stated that she was basically not qualified or famous enough to get into the United States as an artist. She stated Immigration through marriage was possible. She stated a possible plan of marrying a U.S. Citizen female in England to achieve this goal.

Because of massive amounts of medicines brought by Ms. BAKER, for her own health maintenance during her sex change process CBP Officers are not convnced there is no possibility of her requiring emergent or maintenance health care while in the United States this trip. She possesses no evidence of any ability to pay for such if the need arrives. She appears likely to become a public charge.

Based on the above Ms. BAKER is not clearly and beyond a doubt admissible to the United States. Her claim to just be visiting friends for Christmas appears false. She is unable to overcome the presumption of being an Immigrant to the United States. She, at minimum is inadmissible Per: 212.a (7) (A) (i) (I) INA. Other inadmissibility charges may also apply. She will be refused under the VWPP.

Officer: XXXXX XXXXXX CPBEO.
File Number A088 490 719
Event No. ATL0812000603
Dated December 13, 2007.

On her site, stella has her own commentary interwoven in the report, and it might be worthwhile to read it as well.

Lady E, while  I understand your point of view, I reiterate that it appears that her problems were not as a result of her gender, but of her failure to understand the entry process,  along with a negative attitude that was "just begging" to be slapped down - and likely was.

She attributes all her problems to forces outside herself.  She projects, rationalizes and excuses, and accepts no responsibility for her own actions, intentions and words.

I think it was another British playwright that best sums up my opinion:

Why, man, he doth bestride the narrow world
Like a Colossus; and we petty men
Walk under his huge legs, and peep about
To find ourselves dishonourable graves.
Men at some time are masters of their fates:
The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars,
But in ourselves ...


Firm




Stephann -> RE: Stella Undesirable? (12/19/2007 4:37:56 PM)

Firm's spot on here, though this isn't intended without compassion.

The fact is that adults must be responsible for themselves.  She lied to immigration officials about her intentions, and clearly didn't have the financial means to support herself when she arrived.  Adults must be capable of caring for themselves; supposing she and Halley found themselves incompatible?  Who's responsibility woult it become when Stella checked into the hospital in need of treatment?  Or found herself without a place to stay?  Food to eat?

The romantic notion of moving to another country balls to the wall is lovely; I've done it.  I also know that I was damned lucky to survive the incident.  I also did it in a country that wouldn't have admitted me to any hospital short of a stab wound, and where the only free lunch I might find is one I stole or begged for.  Countries don't have the obligation to invite people to visit when they can't responsibly care for themselves.  This is the relavance of her receiving assistance from her own government; in short, if she can't afford a home in the UK, why should she be permitted to visit the US?  This, coupled with her lying to the immigration officer about this being a 'pleasure visit' when she clearly intended to immigrate to the US would have probably led to me doing the same thing in the officer's shoes.  If she wishes to immigrate to the US, there are immigration visas as well; immigrating from the UK is one of the easiest of all countries.

I remember driving once from Michigan to New York through Canada with my fiance.  We were stopped at the Canadian border, and one of the questions they asked was how much money we had.  My girlfriend had her credit cards, though I'd left mine at home.  I only had 20$ cash on me.  They almost denied my entry.  It would have pissed me off, but I completely understand why they might have.  Their country, their rules.

Stephan




Politesub53 -> RE: Stella Undesirable? (12/19/2007 4:51:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

At this stage, despite what some might see as inconsistencies, I feel it is better to deal with the issue as if the trans status was the sole reason for arrest, in order to debate the principles involved, and to leave out until positive proof otherwise is forthcoming the possibility of a "trans card" being played for some effect here.

E


I cant agree with this Lady Ellen, surely both issues are equally important to look at, and if we focus on the one, then we lose site of the other.





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