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RE: bottom to be a better domme? - 12/18/2007 7:04:19 PM

ocilla

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great discussion. I find insight and value in the sea / tammyjo exchange too.

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RE: bottom to be a better domme? - 12/18/2007 9:01:57 PM

RedMagic1

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I know for a fact that Topping has made me a better sub. It's not about toy technique, but rather understanding things like: the Dom(me) is often more nervous than the sub at the first meeting; Dom(me)s need aftercare as much as subs do; how critical it is to communicate before, during and after.

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RE: bottom to be a better domme? - 12/18/2007 10:34:05 PM

eponastar

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I began my journey in the lifestyle as a submissive, and found that really.... really.... didn't work for me. But it gave me amazing insite into the mind of the submissive, what makes them tick ect ect. I also learned some nifty training techniques and activities. I advocate spending some time training as a submissive, it makes you a stronger more knowledgable domme.

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RE: bottom to be a better domme? - 12/19/2007 11:55:41 AM

ElanSubdued

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In my post on the first page, I mentioned that Lady Pact's thoughts resonated with me. RedMagic1 and Eponastar elaborate on these same ideas and underline things I found while trying on the top hat for a while.

quote:

RedMagic1:
I know for a fact that Topping has made me a better sub. It's not about toy technique, but rather understanding things like: the Dom(me) is often more nervous than the sub at the first meeting; Dom(me)s need aftercare as much as subs do; how critical it is to communicate before, during and after.

quote:

eponastar
I began my journey in the lifestyle as a submissive, and found that really... really... didn't work for me. But it gave me amazing insight into the mind of the submissive, what makes them tick etc. etc. I also learned some nifty training techniques and activities. I advocate spending some time training as a submissive, it makes you a stronger more knowledgeable domme.

For those who missed my first post, I'm a submissive who has tried his hand at domination. Eponastar discusses how the foray to the other side didn't fit her well, however, it gave her lots of insight into the minds of her partners. This is my experience too. As a submissive, the dominant role didn't fit me, but it was still fun and very useful to learn about BDSM interactions from a different perspective. Whether dominant or submissive, I don't think one has to experience the other side to be effective, supportive, and loving in your chosen role. Experiencing the perspective of your partners is one way to learn, but it is not the only way. For myself, however, I will say that seemingly there are things I could have only learned by taking a walk on the other side.

Can one be a happy, well adjusted, skilled kinkster without experiencing the opposite side? Of course one can. Personally, I'm glad I have this perspective, but others may be just as happy and effective without it. For me, no amount of reading books, talking to dominants in forums and at live events, and conversing with dominant friends gave me the kind of insight I got from actually stepping into the ring as a dominant myself. Flipping this around to address the topic at hand, I don't think it's a question of "bottoming to become a better domme". Rather, bottoming is just another life experience and gaining more life experiences often comes in handy. :-)

(Mildly related side note: Like Ocilla, I've been enjoying the exchange between Sea and Tammyjo. Thanks Sea and Tammyjo for your interesting, thoughtful discussion.)

Elan.

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RE: bottom to be a better domme? - 12/19/2007 9:17:38 PM

MzMia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

My opinion:

No matter how much a top bottoms to see what it feels like for the submissive... they will only know what it feels like for themselves.. no one can ever know what the submissive feels but the submissive.

If you are talking about just physical reaction to applied tools, then just have a friendly dom/me show you. Or better yet, thry them out on yourself then you know what YOUR delivery will feel like. This "you have to submit" crap- ehhhhhhhhhh common now. If it is your nature to submit.. fine. If you have to force yourself to submit, that kind of defeats the purpose.

If you are a Dominant type, all "submitting" will do is give you the feeling of being pissed off. You won't get the same pleasure that your submissive does.

If you want to be a good top, study people. What makes people tick, body language, anatomy, psycology, sociology and have a huge dose of common sense.

I also have no need or desire to sit in the shoes of a submissive.
It would do more than piss me off, it could possibly make me go off.
I would get NO pleasure out of it and it could actually damage me.
No way, no how, just plain old NO.
How many submissives need to become a Dominant so that they can
be a better submissive?
Maybe it makes you a better Dominant, but many of us just will not and can not
do it.

< Message edited by MzMia -- 12/19/2007 9:19:19 PM >

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RE: bottom to be a better domme? - 12/20/2007 2:11:29 AM

ElanSubdued

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quote:

MzMia:
I also have no need or desire to sit in the shoes of a submissive. It would do more than piss me off, it could possibly make me go off. I would get NO pleasure out of it and it could actually damage me. No way, no how, just plain old NO. How many submissives need to become a Dominant so that they can be a better submissive? Maybe it makes you a better Dominant, but many of us just will not and can not do it.

Just in case this didn't come across in my previous posts, what Mia writes here makes perfect sense to me. Sometimes you just know what your comfort level is. This is why kinky partners share boundaries and limits. Some of us enjoy sampling the other side, but others don't wish to. I see nothing wrong with either approach. Case in point, I'm quite claustrophobic. I know submissives who love being bound in enclosed spaces. This would freak the living shit out of me. Bondage in pleasurable, but restrict my space and I go into panic. I don't need to try a sleep sack (or other constrained space) to know what my reaction would be. My choice, therefore, is not to experience this. I get along quite fine as a submissive without this extra bit of "life experience". Thus, I think I understand where Mia is coming from.

One's reason for not engaging doesn't need to be a dramatic one. Simply recognizing "hey, I don't want to try that" is good enough. Yeah, I know many kinksters don't necessarily identify with the two, most common BDSM mantras: SSC (Safe Sane Consensual) and RACK (Risk Aware Consensual Kink). Still, it's interesting to note that while these ideologies are different, consensuality is a constant. While kinksters have differing approaches on many things, I'm glad to see widespread agreement with regard to consensuality (which includes the freedom for any person to sample or not sample whatever they wish).

Quite a few dommes in this thread talked about communicating with their submissives, reading books, going to seminars, and learning both play and kinky life skills in a variety of ways besides actually stepping into the shoes of a submissive. These all seem perfectly viable to me. My advice (here) is the same for dommes as it is for submissives. Respectfully, I suggest: do what interests you, explore in whatever way makes sense and is comfortable, communicate openly and honestly with your partner, push forward into new territories only if you want to and at a pace that works for you, and most of all, remember to have fun and enjoy yourself.

Elan.

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RE: bottom to be a better domme? - 12/20/2007 6:41:46 AM

ItalianSMistress

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I have never and will never submit or bottom to anyone. Its just not in My nature, I could not do it. I would last about, I dont know, two minutes perhaps? Until the Top opened their mouth,,,,,,,
Its just not in My nature, so I would never force it.

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RE: bottom to be a better domme? - 12/20/2007 12:38:29 PM

ocilla

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As the OP this may seem obvious but it has been a little suprising to me that this has turned out to be such a wonderful thread. Kudos to all for such well written responses that are full of genuine and respectful opinions.

So on the old school notion of you must be a sub before being a dom...no one has ever suggested such to me. I've been around the block too many times to even consider such a method...for me it would be illogical and ineffective. *shrugs* It may work for some but there are too many disconnects in relation to my nature for it to work successfully for me - can you say uber rebellion. lol I know I would get so rebellious that damage would occur to all involved and I am not talking physical so much.

Now I am open to being an apprentice to or being mentored or trained by another dom/me and in some situations by a sub (I already learn sooo much from sub's) ....but I would not be someones sub...it is just not in me.

Will I ever bottom again? I think yes, I will seek out a few more experiences but only in certain situations with certain people and in ways that will not just piss me off... My dom friend Instynctive is someone who I would feel safe with and who is willing to actually switch a bit..but who knows.

So last weekend I did discover that there is an approach that I can tolerate from a top and approaches that I cannot tolerate. And, I would like to experience bottoming when only the tolerable approach is being used and see how that makes me feel....Tolerable is a very specific limit.and for me more emotional and mental than physical.

Thank you everyone and I welcome others to respond as well.

And Elansubdued...I am working up a full blown crush on you.

< Message edited by ocilla -- 12/20/2007 1:23:48 PM >

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RE: bottom to be a better domme? - 12/20/2007 12:54:20 PM

DesFIP

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

Taking the time to learn proper technique could have given him that information too. One has to be willing and able to learn from good people and take the time to practice and be critiqued by more experienced people. Has nothing to do with being on the bottom in my experience.

You know, I've read a couple of bondage books and I don't recall anywhere it saying don't let ankle bones rub together. He's also had several other partners including a couple of long term relationships but this didn't come up. Possibly because his last was a great deal heavier than I am and her ankles just didn't touch.

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RE: bottom to be a better domme? - 12/20/2007 1:15:10 PM

Casseopia

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Fast Reply:

I bottomed before I topped. I dont think I learned tricks of the trade from it, but I appreciate knowing what things feel like.

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RE: bottom to be a better domme? - 12/20/2007 2:13:50 PM

thetammyjo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

Taking the time to learn proper technique could have given him that information too. One has to be willing and able to learn from good people and take the time to practice and be critiqued by more experienced people. Has nothing to do with being on the bottom in my experience.

You know, I've read a couple of bondage books and I don't recall anywhere it saying don't let ankle bones rub together. He's also had several other partners including a couple of long term relationships but this didn't come up. Possibly because his last was a great deal heavier than I am and her ankles just didn't touch.

Just because someone has poor teachers or chooses poor texts does not equal that he would have learned anything from bottoming and been able to apply to when he topped.

Some people have that ability, some don't.

Some of us also take the time to think through things and seek out multiple sources plus get hands on training -- others either don't take that time or feel that they can't.

Bottoming does not innately teach one empathy or how to do things that are being done to you. Having someone bake me a cake does not teach me to bake one, even watching them may not work, but leading through the steps, explaining it and then having me practice will work unless I'm really stupid.

As I've said, bottoming first may be a great idea for some people but to insist that it helps everyone lacks evidence and in fact a few folks here have said they did not think it helped them learn how to or how it felt; others said it helped with understanding but not technique.

I think all of this raises an underlining assumption in the BDSM world at large: tops/doms should know everything.

Well, we don't, in fact, I strongly suspect we can't. I think part of the pull to bottom first is this idea that the top should know everything from all angles.

Is that realistic? Doesn't that just add to the difficulty that arises when one starts off as a top? It becomes a catch-22 -- no experience, no knowledge = can't be a top.

One way you might claim both is to start on the bottom.

Does that then teach one what it means to be a bottom or instead does it give you insight into what it means for YOU to bottom, how it feel to YOU?

Does it give you insight into what the top is thinking, feeling, or doing? If he/she talks a lot while they scene with you then I'd say you can get an idea of what they experience.

Will that be what YOU experience when you top?

Fox is a switch so we do occasionally talk about topping. Some things we think about are the same like basics of safety or starting techniques. But our motivations and how we feel about what do are very different partly because he does not dominate, he is male, and other factors.

He loves to be in bondage but it never occurred to him that being wrapped or tied up or shackled meant he had learned how to do those things to others. He sought out training on the top side of things. I do think his love for bondage adds to his skill and passion in a scene but that's aside from his experiencing bondage on both the top and bottom side. I would never suggest that someone else who only bottomed or only topped could not be as passionate or skilled as he.

I'm rambling again. Hope that made some sense to someone.

< Message edited by thetammyjo -- 12/20/2007 2:29:23 PM >

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RE: bottom to be a better domme? - 12/20/2007 3:15:55 PM

ElanSubdued

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Argh! I really, really, really hate Collar Me's lack of an edit feature. Only a few minutes after posting, the system commits whatever you've typed to permanent record. Sure, if one catches typos and errors in this small window of opportunity, you can fix them. But after that, you're out of luck. Here's a corrected version of my post above:

quote:

ElanSubdued:
Just in case this didn't come across in my previous posts, what Mia writes makes perfect sense to me. Sometimes you just know what your comfort level is. This is why kinky partners share boundaries and limits. Some of us enjoy sampling the other side, but others don't wish to. I see nothing wrong with either approach. Case in point, I'm quite claustrophobic. I know submissives who love being bound in enclosed spaces. This would freak the living shit out of me. Bondage is pleasurable (to me), but restrict my space and I go into panic. I don't need to try a sleep sack or other constrained space to know what my reaction would be. My choice, therefore, is not to experience this. I get along quite fine as a submissive without this extra bit of "life experience". Thus, I understand where Mia is coming when she describes not wanting (or needing) to try submission.

Elan.

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RE: bottom to be a better domme? - 12/20/2007 3:19:16 PM

womyn

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Interesting concept. I also had a dom telling me in his email that is what makes him a loving, caring master. He told me, "after all, you can't be the CEO of your company, unless you get on the ground floor, so to speak."

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RE: bottom to be a better domme? - 12/20/2007 3:35:46 PM

LotusSong

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Just curious about something.. this is for the Dommes.

Is there ANY female, raised in America who does NOT know what it is like to either BE submissive or have submission forced upon them?

This thought of having to bottom ..and forgive me here dom-guys.. is better for the MALE of our society to have to experience before they think they can dominate another.

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RE: bottom to be a better domme? - 12/20/2007 3:43:53 PM

thetammyjo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

Just curious about something.. this is for the Dommes.

Is there ANY female, raised in America who does NOT know what it is like to either BE submissive or have submission forced upon them?

This thought of having to bottom ..and forgive me here dom-guys.. is better for the MALE of our society to have to experience before they think they can dominate another.

I was raised in some senses to be a "slave" but that is not in anyway the same sense that any slave I have owned has been treated or expected to act.

I was expected to sacrifice myself for others, in fact, perfect strangers, even to the point of allowing harm to myself.

I don't think that is the same as BDSM and DS.

I think my childhood helped make me the person I am but I wouldn't give credit to my abusers and say they helped me become a better dom.

*shudder*

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RE: bottom to be a better domme? - 12/20/2007 5:04:09 PM

ElanSubdued

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Ocilla,

quote:

And Elansubdued... I am working up a full blown crush on you.

Oh my! Thank you. :-)

*blushes*

(Just a tad.)

Elan.

< Message edited by ElanSubdued -- 12/20/2007 5:05:35 PM >

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RE: bottom to be a better domme? - 12/20/2007 7:28:38 PM

LotusSong

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

Just curious about something.. this is for the Dommes.

Is there ANY female, raised in America who does NOT know what it is like to either BE submissive or have submission forced upon them?

This thought of having to bottom ..and forgive me here dom-guys.. is better for the MALE of our society to have to experience before they think they can dominate another.

I was raised in some senses to be a "slave" but that is not in anyway the same sense that any slave I have owned has been treated or expected to act.

I was expected to sacrifice myself for others, in fact, perfect strangers, even to the point of allowing harm to myself.

I don't think that is the same as BDSM and DS.

I think my childhood helped make me the person I am but I wouldn't give credit to my abusers and say they helped me become a better dom.

*shudder*

Being that I was raised in the 50's, I think the restrictions I had on me (because I was a girl) made me a stronger and more compassionate person. I never take anyone for granted who goes the distance for someone (or me) because I know what it feels like to be taken for granted just because I am what they define me as. From that standpoint, I know what a good submissive feels like. The "play" is just an expression of the dynamic for us.

< Message edited by LotusSong -- 12/20/2007 7:29:46 PM >

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RE: bottom to be a better domme? - 12/20/2007 9:28:33 PM

DivineDarkDiva

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

Perhaps it increased my respect for people who do bottom or submit but I had a very high level of respect for them anyway. Now I simply know that some of them can do things that I cannot and that makes them powerful and attractive people in my eyes.

You've spoken wisdom and it surely bears repeating. Bottoms are powerful and attractive, in their own right, and without them ... we'd do what, and with whom? I, too, have been on both sides and find there are things I crave from each menu. What comes from yielding one's self is invaluable to me. I don't know if everyone needs to do it, but I am sure no one needs to despise it or feel superior to those who do bottom. In life, everyone yields to some authority greater than themselves. To be able to take that yielding and find joy in it, to take waiting and develop patience from it, to experience pain and squeeze the pleasure out of it strikes me as enriching experiences.

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Reply to Thetammyjo and DivineDarkDiva. - 12/21/2007 2:09:27 AM

ElanSubdued

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Thetammyjo and DivineDarkDiva,

quote:

Thetammyjo:
Perhaps it increased my respect for people who do bottom or submit but I had a very high level of respect for them anyway. Now I simply know that some of them can do things that I cannot and that makes them powerful and attractive people in my eyes.

DivineDarkDiva:
You've spoken wisdom and it surely bears repeating. Bottoms are powerful and attractive, in their own right, and without them... we'd do what, and with whom? I, too, have been on both sides and find there are things I crave from each menu. What comes from yielding one's self is invaluable to me. I don't know if everyone needs to do it, but I am sure no one needs to despise it or feel superior to those who do bottom. In life, everyone yields to some authority greater than themselves. To be able to take that yielding and find joy in it, to take waiting and develop patience from it, to experience pain and squeeze the pleasure out of it strikes me as enriching experiences.

I keep a file of quotes to reflect on in future and these two posts just got added to it. Thank you (both) for this utterly gorgeous view of the submissive soul. What a truly beautiful way of expressing admiration for your partners. Indeed, the symbiosis in those who experience joy while embracing authority and who transform life's frustrations into opportunity contains enriching lessons for us all.

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RE: bottom to be a better domme? - 12/21/2007 2:11:04 AM

ElanSubdued

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Ocilla,

Thank you for starting this wonderfully insightful, thought provoking thread. Also, thanks to everyone who has contributed. Intelligent, informative, simultaneously passionate discussions like this are why I continue to read the forums on Collar Me.

Elan.

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