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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/29/2007 4:14:10 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
I had my foreskin cut as a small child - wasn't really my fault, 'not much I could do about it - but, I've since had it surgically reinstated.

Do I worship Satan or the Creator?

Since your foreskin has been reinstated, making you more susceptible to venereal diseases, you are dedicated to the Creator and worship the Creator - especiallly as it is unlikely that you will agree to the mutilation of the penis of your male descendants.
 
Those who are born with an innate sense of ethics - i.e. those that find it difficult to do wrongs (like violating the integrity of the body of their progeny by mutilating their genitalia) - are minions of the Creator.
 
Those who are born without an innate sense of ethics - i.e. those that do not find it difficult to do wrongs - are minions of Satan, but may dedicate themselves to the Creator. Often such people are very much preoccupied with the discussion of ethics, such as philosophers, and with the law, such as politicians and lawyers.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/29/2007 4:20:00 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
I had my foreskin cut as a small child - wasn't really my fault, 'not much I could do about it - but, I've since had it surgically reinstated.

Do I worship Satan or the Creator?

Since your foreskin has been reinstated, making you more susceptible to venereal diseases, you are dedicated to the Creator and worship the Creator - especiallly as it is unlikely that you will agree to the mutilation of the penis of your male descendants.
 
Those who are born with an innate sense of ethics - i.e. those that find it difficult to do wrongs (like violating the integrity of the body of their progeny by mutilating their genitalia) - are minions of the Creator.
 
Those who are born without an innate sense of ethics - i.e. those that do not find it difficult to do wrongs - are minions of Satan, but may dedicate themselves to the Creator. Often such people are very much preoccupied with the discussion of ethics, such as philosophers, and with the law, such as politicians and lawyers.


Cheers Rule. 'Good to hear it's all ship-shape.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/29/2007 4:41:49 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Do I worship Satan or the Creator?


A little bit of both, perhaps?

By the way, I love the line about tradition.

Health,
al-Aswad.

< Message edited by Aswad -- 12/29/2007 5:15:06 AM >

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/29/2007 10:18:48 AM   
Bobbie9395


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Status: offline 		Hello, FangsNfeet.  Fang was a character on the old Soupy Sales children's TV program, (from the '60s, I believe).  Fang was also how Phyllis Diller used to refer to her ex-husband.  I appreciated your response.  Frankly, never realized there was a real difference between adultery and fornication.  Thanks for the eye-opener.

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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/29/2007 12:44:50 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Do I worship Satan or the Creator?


A little bit of both, perhaps?



There's method in the madness - two heads are better than one!

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/29/2007 3:55:02 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

The effect of the Divine upon our universe is non-causal.


So long as one claims that a God can exist.. yet, in no way actually interacts with our universe.. I'll likely abstain from objection; hell, I may agree.

However, it would be worth noting that, in this same respect, the tooth fairy, Santa Clause, dwarves, elves, leppercons, magic, effectual love potions, etc. also all can be said to exist in this same manner.

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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/29/2007 4:00:37 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bobbie9395

Hello, FangsNfeet.  Fang was a character on the old Soupy Sales children's TV program, (from the '60s, I believe).  Fang was also how Phyllis Diller used to refer to her ex-husband.  I appreciated your response.  Frankly, never realized there was a real difference between adultery and fornication.  Thanks for the eye-opener.


Thought I had posted and forgotten already.......

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to Bobbie9395)
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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/29/2007 9:39:55 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

So long as one claims that a God can exist.. yet, in no way actually interacts with our universe.. I'll likely abstain from objection; hell, I may agree.


The way I read his assertion was more along the lines of the "unmoved mover."
Which is to say a state of being a potential causal antecedent, but never a consequent.
Of course, that equates to working blind, so it's really no more workable than the usual one.

Leaving us with only one interpretation that I know of which works, but is unscientific in that it is neither falsifiable, nor capable of producing accurate predictions, and thus of no interest in doing real work: a strict causal relationship (whether by interaction, or by virtue of being consubstantiate with the universe, depending on the faith in question) but also an ability to affect the universe that does not conform to the current body of knowledge. Science does not preclude such a thing, nor can one hope to give any odds either way, but one can certainly make strong assumptions about what will or will not happen to that body of knowledge. But such assumptions are yet another brand of faith.

Whether that angle is what Rule has in mind or not, I couldn't possibly say, though.
Occasionally, the dots are spaced a bit too far apart for me.

Health,
al-Aswad.

Edit: Well, the Deist position works with the notion of a one-way causal relationship. If the entity in question cannot take part in the causal chain as a consequent, then it would stand to reason that the uncertainty of the interaction is reduced to exactly nil, which can allow for such an interaction to be formative, but does not allow any subsequent feedback to change the course of the system. A temporally linear, entropic and causal universe may well be a requisite for most ideas about human growth, though.


< Message edited by Aswad -- 12/29/2007 9:47:33 PM >

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/29/2007 10:32:27 PM   
goodgirl08


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Status: offline 		I have a lot of trouble understanding the huge importance placed on premarital sex (and not having it) in American Christianity.

My mom was raised a strict Catholic in England in the 60s and 70s, and claims she never heard a word about premarital sex. Not at home, church, or at her all girls parish school. They were discouraged from being promiscuous, but the single/married binary that is such a HUGE part of many American denominations simply did not exist.

I have been strongly considering being confirmed in the church for a long time - we were not raised Catholic but I have always been strangely faithful, and I would like to be a member of the church of my family's long heritage. I am friends with various people from the church, where I sing in the choir...but, I absolutely cannot STAND the obsession with sex outside of marriage.

To be honest it seems like a distraction from what's really important. Yes, please tell me more about the sin of premarital sex while homeless Vietnam vets are sleeping in the park three blocks away. Cool. I say this so harshly because I have felt guilt about having premarital sex in the past, and it has taken a lot of searching to recognize the cultural forces that blow this act out of proportion instead of accepting it as something that CAN lead to trouble, but is not bound to, and that's what is important to remember.

Many people would tell me that I'm just making excuses, but I don't think in a binary...I'm sorry. Tell me how successful your abstinence only education programs are, again? Oh yeah...

Also, I think that fornication is defined in different ways. Some define it as any kind of recreational sex, and if that's a sin, then it's over for everyone!

To answer your original question, there are some ways in which I have trouble reconciling BDSM and my faith. They are personal matters that are not necessarily biblical and might not apply to everyone, so I won't go into great detail. I deal with them by saying, Okay, I do not know all the answers yet. There is a question in my heart over whether this is what you want for me or not, and it is not answered yet. I am taking my time to figure it out, and when I do I'll make the right decision.
This is a good approach for me because BDSM vs. Jesus is not a black or white issue for me - it really is a question, something I don't quite understand my feelings on at this point.


< Message edited by goodgirl08 -- 12/29/2007 10:34:03 PM >

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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 1:40:04 AM   
CuriousLord


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Status: offline 		To me, these questions are tired in and of themselves; rather, it's the psycological aspect of those pursuing them. As you've said, this is an unscientific approach. Humoring the notion of a non-casual entity (which I would like to point out, can be, in part, scientifically deniable as non-casuality has not be observed through any experimentation throughout history, where as a scientifically nuetral subject would be one that hasn't been tested at all), I would point out that there's no reason nor logic in the distateful claims of personal but unverifiable, ineffectual "relationship"s with it.

Or, to get to the point, people are believing in something that there's absolutely no logical reason to believe in nor much sense to. Does this not speak more for the fraility of the human ego above and beyond anything else?

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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 1:43:24 AM   
CuriousLord


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Status: offline 		Not having premarital sex is part of the Christian identity. For better or worse, when they adopted their belief system, that came with it; it's part of who they are. Like the entire belief system, it's irrational; there's no sense to trying to justify why it is. Simply, people do believe it and they're emotionally invested in it to a point that their very ability to perceive reality is alterred.

PS- Many of these people actually believe you'll be kept alive for eternity and tortured by evil spirits for all of infinity if you have sex before marriage. (Yes, it's crazy. No, they don't care.)

Does no one else here seem to give a damn about how stupid and insane it is to think imaginary voices in your head actually control existence?

< Message edited by CuriousLord -- 12/30/2007 1:51:52 AM >

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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 2:09:13 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: goodgirl08
I have a lot of trouble understanding the huge importance placed on premarital sex (and not having it) in American Christianity. ... I absolutely cannot STAND the obsession with sex outside of marriage.
It is not a christian thing, but a jewish thing. Jews are obsessed about the prevention of venereal diseases. The most certain way to prevent the transmission of venereal diseases is by limiting sexual interactions to those who are married. Of course the burden is always placed on the weaker, defenseless sex.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: goodgirl08
My mom was raised a strict Catholic in England in the 60s and 70s, and claims she never heard a word about premarital sex. Not at home, church, or at her all girls parish school. They were discouraged from being promiscuous, but the single/married binary that is such a HUGE part of many American denominations simply did not exist.

It was not unusual one century ago for girls to have a pre-child - i.e. before being married - in the area where I was born. No fuss was made about that. They simply quickly married. This in contrast to the Irish where such girls used to be sent for life to truly ugly slave labour camps - washing clothes - in catholic convents run by nuns.
 
Premarital sex did occur among the Vikings from whom many in my area descended, thanks to the goddess Lovn, who suggested the custom of engagement (in Dutch verloven) and the principle of to promise (in Dutch beloven).
 
And it is well known that Mary had premarital intercourse with the Roman soldier Panthera, who was the father of Jesus. So in its very roots Christianity permits premarital sexual relations.

< Message edited by Rule -- 12/30/2007 2:22:07 AM >

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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 3:28:16 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
So long as one claims that a God can exist.. yet, in no way actually interacts with our universe..

The Divine interacts with our universe in a non-causal way, and thus though part of reality is not a part of our universe and therefore cannot be subjected to scientific investigation.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
However, it would be worth noting that, in this same respect, the tooth fairy, Santa Clause, dwarves, elves, leppercons, magic, effectual love potions, etc. also all can be said to exist in this same manner.

Not in the same respect for most of those - magic excluded - as they used to be physical phenomena in our universe.
 
the tooth fairy - I have no pertinent knowledge about that one
 
Santa Clause - does exist, though the original person died early in the first millennium. He symbolizes that specific incarnation of part of the Divine known as the Creator. New clothes, same god.
 
dwarves - do exist. They are in Asgardian mythology
 
elves - I have no pertinent knowledge about elves
 
leppercons - leprecons are part of Irish folklore. They do exist, whatever they are. Presumably they evacuated Earth during the past centuries. May be identical with dwarfs.
 
magic - does function, but in a non-causal way, so can not be subjected to scientific investigation
 
effectual love potions - did exist, but were indiscriminate, as they simply increased sexual arousal

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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 3:54:07 AM   
eyesopened


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Not having premarital sex is part of the Christian identity. For better or worse, when they adopted their belief system, that came with it; it's part of who they are. Like the entire belief system, it's irrational; there's no sense to trying to justify why it is. Simply, people do believe it and they're emotionally invested in it to a point that their very ability to perceive reality is alterred.

PS- Many of these people actually believe you'll be kept alive for eternity and tortured by evil spirits for all of infinity if you have sex before marriage. (Yes, it's crazy. No, they don't care.)

Does no one else here seem to give a damn about how stupid and insane it is to think imaginary voices in your head actually control existence?


Could you please show me where, in Christian doctrine, that pre-marital sex is discussed and is part and parcel of the belief system?  While there are plenty of individuals who identify with Christian, there is nothing about sex specifically mentioned in the Nicene Creed, which is a declaration of faith.  Jesus himself was not willing to judge or punish the adulteress so why would anyone who claims to be Christian have a greater power of judgement than Christ is beyond me.

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Proudly owned by InkedMaster. He is the one i obey, serve, honor and love.

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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 4:55:15 AM   
sharainks


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Status: offline 		The whole of the message of Christianity is not found in any of the creeds.  I would suggest reading the entire New Testament portion of the Bible for that.  Where the message gets befuddled is when you move into various Christian denominations which usually have a laundry list of things that particular denomination believes. 

As far as his reaction to the adulteress it is the same as Jesus' reaction to all of us.  He forgave her.  He also then told her to go and sin no more.

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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 5:00:13 AM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
leppercons - leprecons are part of Irish folklore. They do exist, whatever they are. Presumably they evacuated Earth during the past centuries. May be identical with dwarfs. 


The only remaining one is the Lucky Charms leprechaun, seen her getting soused: http://citymama.typepad.com/citymama/images/2007/03/17/leprechaun.jpg

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 5:23:53 AM   
eyesopened


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sharainks

The whole of the message of Christianity is not found in any of the creeds.  I would suggest reading the entire New Testament portion of the Bible for that.  Where the message gets befuddled is when you move into various Christian denominations which usually have a laundry list of things that particular denomination believes. 

As far as his reaction to the adulteress it is the same as Jesus' reaction to all of us.  He forgave her.  He also then told her to go and sin no more.


i have read the entire Bible many times.  i have also read many books on other religions.  For me, personally, i look at the words and actions of Jesus as a good guide for how to live my life, not the words of Paul or Peter or Timothy.  i don't follow anything but my own spirituality which takes a whole different form from any organized religion.  But i cannot see where all Christians, Buddhists, etc are cut from the same cloth.  Within the guidelines of religion is still individual application of same.  i think religion becomes offensive when people feel more empowered to judge than the very gods they claim to believe in.

_____________________________

Proudly owned by InkedMaster. He is the one i obey, serve, honor and love.

No one is honored for what they've received. Honor is the reward for what has been given.

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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 5:45:59 AM   
GreedyTop


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

To the OP,

This is the time for you to learn about your own faith, make some decisions, and grow as a person.[snip...]

I've got lots more to say on the topic, but I hope this will suffice for now.

Health,
al-Aswad.



Wow..my compliments on an incredible post!  *standing ovation*

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 6:00:44 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
The way I read his assertion was more along the lines of the "unmoved mover."
That is a nice way to put it. In fact the Divine is outside our universe, which precludes a causal physical interaction. (Incarnations of various aspects of the Divine - gods such as the Creator and Satan and such - however are part of our universe and may be kicked.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
Which is to say a state of being a potential causal antecedent, but never a consequent.

The Divine by its nature is impartial, neutral, submissive. It simply responds to our desires, granting them if physically possible, by the non-causal mechanism of synchronicity. So there is a two-way communication consisting of request and response.
 
The incarnations of various aspects of the Divine by contrast are not impartial, not neutral, and often also not entirely submissive.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
Of course, that equates to working blind, so it's really no more workable than the usual one.

Not applicable. The Divine is aware of every tiniest particle in our universe. However, in order not to be alone, the Divine is precluded from interfering with purpose in a deterministic way with the events in our universe. So whether we swim or drown is entirely up to us and our desires. (There are known a couple of very rare healing events that indicate that direct Divine intervention - presumably in response to desire - is possible, though.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
Leaving us with only one interpretation that I know of which works, but is unscientific in that it is neither falsifiable, nor capable of producing accurate predictions, and thus of no interest in doing real work: a strict causal relationship (whether by interaction, or by virtue of being consubstantiate with the universe, depending on the faith in question)

The universe is a part of the Divine, but separate from the Divine. The Divine is 'outside' our universe.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
but also an ability to affect the universe that does not conform to the current body of knowledge. Science does not preclude such a thing, nor can one hope to give any odds either way, but one can certainly make strong assumptions about what will or will not happen to that body of knowledge.

Quite. I have such knowledge.

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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 9:02:46 AM   
EvilGenie


Posts: 1323
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Status: offline 		Curious Lord and Others,
Not Everyone

This thread's OP (Original Point) was a person seeking how to reconcile his faith and bsdm. Not our faiths, not our bdsm but his. While a great deal here is interesting, I don't think he was seeking such a debate outside of the original post but rather asking a question pertaining to him. He believes in a God so that point didn't need debate. He was gone for a time, out of town I believe he said. He stated that while there was a lot to read here not all of it was what he was asking for (paraphrased). Most of the answers which were directly to the OP (back to original post now) were varied though all seemed to end in the same premise. ''You will have to decide for yourself what is best for you.''  This was about someone's faith and his dilemma, not about whether or not there is a God.

I find the ''Is there a God debate'' to be one I enjoy discussing though the thread seems to have been hijacked and the OP lost at this point. For those who seek religious debate, perhaps another thread dealing with that would be a good idea? The OP definitely has a faith so those posting the debate surrounding there being no God and God vs. science have no relavency here. I am a former research scientist who also has a faith and had no issues in reconciling science and God though I had no reason to add that to the OP's question and in my advice I did not. I only say it here as I don't think these debates belong to this original question.

The OP seems to be having enough struggle simply dealing with his own life for any of us to be giving personal opinions on things unrelated to his question, I do think though that the title, had it have been worded differently, may have allowed us all to post directly and only to his questions.

I think that sometimes on many threads we lose sight that the given thread isn't really about us but about the OP. While others are most definitely all about us. Yes all threads morph a bit, wander and take a life of their own. IMO though some have no need to do that in a big way and for me, the seeking advice ones are especially true of this. I have to remember at times that a given topic isn't necessarily an ''open floor'' discussion but rather for the benefit of the OP and if I have nothing constructive to offer the OP, then I simply don't. Can I say that I have found this debate a fascinating read? Absolutely! I cannot say though that some of it has anything to do with offering assistance but I can say this is the very reason that I only posted one time after giving advice to say that the OP was being lost.

< Message edited by EvilGenie -- 12/30/2007 9:11:40 AM >

(in reply to Rule)
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