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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 12:58:45 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

Could you please show me where, in Christian doctrine, that pre-marital sex is discussed and is part and parcel of the belief system? While there are plenty of individuals who identify with Christian, there is nothing about sex specifically mentioned in the Nicene Creed, which is a declaration of faith. Jesus himself was not willing to judge or punish the adulteress so why would anyone who claims to be Christian have a greater power of judgement than Christ is beyond me.


Ah, two things.

First, while I can't cite a Bible passage, there's more to a religion than a simple book. Christianity has been passed two for two thousand years.. so there's the tradiation and oral parts, too. To only regard a single collection of works is to be ignorant to the larger idealogy. Anyhow, premartial sex is likely in the Old Testiment, as it was part of Jewish law. Hell, the laws against premartial sex that were part of the orginial faith are probably why Mary had to claim divine impregnation (so she and Joseph wouldn't be punished for premartial intercourse). In a sense, the religion started because of the premarital sex law!

To add on to this first part, about not limitting the religion.. the Nicene Creed is only a summation of points of the religion, not the entire religion by any means. It just hits the major points.

Secondly, that story about the adultreress is NOT saying that adultry is okay (and has nothing to do with premartial sex). It's saying that it's God who will be offended and have the right to judge, not mortals (to include Jesus). In other words, to apply it to premartial sex, Jesus is saying that us humans shouldn't do the judging, that that's God's job.. he's not saying that it isn't going to be judged!

(Yes, while I am an athiest now, I've also been knighted in the Catholic Church and studied religion formally for four years. While I consider it to be an utter waste of time that could've been spent studying other things, it can be entertaining to discuss. :P)

(in reply to eyesopened)
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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 1:17:27 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		EvilGenie,

I'm entirely tired of seeing people having to bend over backwards to reconcile their faith with things. My posts to him were entirely to the point; that reconciling the two is not worthwhile, but, if he wanted to know the answer, no.. premartial sex is to be met with eternal anguish and suffering.

I get many of you have had premartial sex. Probably the vast majority of people on this site have, and in many other places. It's increasingly part of modern life, but it's simply not allowed by Christianity. To say otherwise is to be twisting the religion, further causing what comes out of God's mouth to be what people want it to be.

If people force God's tongue, just who the hell is God?

(in reply to EvilGenie)
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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 1:28:32 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

The Divine interacts with our universe in a non-causal way, and thus though part of reality is not a part of our universe and therefore cannot be subjected to scientific investigation.


How might something exist outside of being scientifically verifiable?

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 1:30:12 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

I've also been knighted in the Catholic Church


That's intriguing. Care to say more?

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(in reply to CuriousLord)
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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 1:31:30 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

The Divine interacts with our universe in a non-causal way, and thus though part of reality is not a part of our universe and therefore cannot be subjected to scientific investigation.


How might something exist outside of being scientifically verifiable?


Did x-rays exist before we could detect them?

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to CuriousLord)
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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 1:35:57 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
quote:

I've also been knighted in the Catholic Church


That's intriguing. Care to say more?


Sure. The Bishop came and knighted a group of us from the school. They told me about it when I got back, and that I received it in my absense. (No, I didn't even know they could do this, either, until it happened.)

The group that was knighted were mostly those who both attended the Catholic school on the church grounds and served in the church in at least one function (such as altar boys/girls, euchiristic administors, etc.). I'm unaware of any titles that might come with it nor its historical background. (Knights are typically "Sir", but I'm not sure if it was that formal or if that church uses it or what.)

Sorry there's not much to say. As an interesting note, I was athiest by the time I was knighted, but at the time, I neither knew it was happening nor did they know I was athiest. (I was at the military academy at the time.) I'd suggest Google'ing it; I'd be rather interested in what you find, so I'd appreciate a mail if you get anything on it.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 1:37:04 PM   
dcnovice


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Status: offline 		Thanks, CL. That's interesting.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 1:37:38 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

The Divine interacts with our universe in a non-causal way, and thus though part of reality is not a part of our universe and therefore cannot be subjected to scientific investigation.


How might something exist outside of being scientifically verifiable?


Did x-rays exist before we could detect them?


Were they not always scientifically verifiable? There's a rather vast difference between not being scientifically verifiable and not being scientifically verified.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 1:39:13 PM   
EvilGenie


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From: Morocco and Maine occasionally
Status: offline 		CL, damn you're angry though if it is directed at me it is entirely misplaced. Go back and read my 1st response to this OP please. It states nothing about which you are speaking of now, at least not from my answer.

Best,

EG

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 1:40:09 PM   
dcnovice


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Status: offline 		Well, the scientific instruments of the time couldn't verify them. So tales of invisible rays that could take pictures of our bones would probably have sounded like sci-fi.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 1:41:01 PM   
CuriousLord


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Status: offline 		Yeah, I guess. It's kind of a flashy thing to say, and it shows that I've been involved with the church and its studies long enough to know what I'm talking about, even if the knighthood bit isn't exactly as prestigeous as the title may make it sound. I imagine it was probably used more often in the Crusades, and now it's one of those old rituals in the books that isn't taken so seriously anymore. All suposition, though. (Okay, now I'm curious enough to Google it.)

(in reply to dcnovice)
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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 1:44:03 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Well, the scientific instruments of the time couldn't verify them. So tales of invisible rays that could take pictures of our bones would probably have sounded like sci-fi.


True, and I'm sure a number of other things yet to be discovered would sound sci-fi right now. My point is, though, that they are verifable; verification is arbitrary.

Point being, if there's a God, we should, at some point, be able to experimentally demonstrate it. The claim that something exists, but that it will never be experimentally demonstratiable, is a claim that something can not be shown to interact with our world. Such a claim is a contradiction to itself, as something must be able to interact to exist, by definition.

(in reply to dcnovice)
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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 1:47:37 PM   
MistressPav


Posts: 350
Joined: 11/14/2007
Status: offline 		Poor, poor OP.  What a dilemna you are in....mixing BDSM with christianity. Be sure to keep it quiet and don't let anyone at your church find out or you'll end up as an outcast and you'll burn in the firey pits of hell for all eternity.

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(my boy "ToyZ")
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Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 1:49:29 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Point being, if there's a God, we should, at some point, be able to experimentally demonstrate it.


Perhaps we just haven't reached that point yet?

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 1:58:09 PM   
eyesopened


Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

Could you please show me where, in Christian doctrine, that pre-marital sex is discussed and is part and parcel of the belief system? While there are plenty of individuals who identify with Christian, there is nothing about sex specifically mentioned in the Nicene Creed, which is a declaration of faith. Jesus himself was not willing to judge or punish the adulteress so why would anyone who claims to be Christian have a greater power of judgement than Christ is beyond me.


Ah, two things.

First, while I can't cite a Bible passage, there's more to a religion than a simple book. Christianity has been passed two for two thousand years.. so there's the tradiation and oral parts, too. To only regard a single collection of works is to be ignorant to the larger idealogy. Anyhow, premartial sex is likely in the Old Testiment, as it was part of Jewish law. Hell, the laws against premartial sex that were part of the orginial faith are probably why Mary had to claim divine impregnation (so she and Joseph wouldn't be punished for premartial intercourse). In a sense, the religion started because of the premarital sex law!

To add on to this first part, about not limitting the religion.. the Nicene Creed is only a summation of points of the religion, not the entire religion by any means. It just hits the major points.

Secondly, that story about the adultreress is NOT saying that adultry is okay (and has nothing to do with premartial sex). It's saying that it's God who will be offended and have the right to judge, not mortals (to include Jesus). In other words, to apply it to premartial sex, Jesus is saying that us humans shouldn't do the judging, that that's God's job.. he's not saying that it isn't going to be judged!

(Yes, while I am an athiest now, I've also been knighted in the Catholic Church and studied religion formally for four years. While I consider it to be an utter waste of time that could've been spent studying other things, it can be entertaining to discuss. :P)


Four years of religious study and you didn't even have a clue about the divine and miraculous birth of Buddah.  Very obvious you didn't study with enthusiasm.  To which Order were you knighted?  Of course, you weren't there so you don't know.... It must be a challenge to wake up every day knowing there is nothing left to learn.

My point was simply what i said, that too many people feel they are better equipped to pass judgement and declare damnation than the gods they believe in.  Good to see that capacity isn't limited to believers.

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(in reply to CuriousLord)
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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 2:22:23 PM   
Shawn1066


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Joined: 10/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
there are some who seemingly can not help being offended at the mention of faith.


It's an institution that tricks children to ends that can harm them.  It happened to me.  It's really hard not to find something that, in effect, abuses children through deception and manipulation offensive.

It's one thing when you find out Santa isn't real.  That's no biggie.  It's another when you find out that the thing you based your life off of is a lie.

Yeah.  I really think religion is abusive.  I'm not sure if I would ever want to be so calleous as to not be offended.



It's important to realize that the church and the religion are two different things.  There are plenty of Christians who think for themselves, believe for themselves, and everything else.  It's terrible that you were harmed by the institution itself, but you weren't harmed by the religion.  The religion is an idea...the validity of that idea isn't the important part.  Something as broad as Christianity isn't good or evil.  People make it good or evil.  You were obviously associated with people who made the religion a very bad thing.  That's unfortunate.

Don't blame the religion.  Blame the people.

(in reply to CuriousLord)
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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 2:26:30 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EvilGenie

CL, damn you're angry though if it is directed at me it is entirely misplaced. Go back and read my 1st response to this OP please. It states nothing about which you are speaking of now, at least not from my answer.


I've certainly pressed a point without regard for casual discussion, but is that truly anger?

(in reply to EvilGenie)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 2:28:14 PM   
CuriousLord


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Joined: 4/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
quote:

Point being, if there's a God, we should, at some point, be able to experimentally demonstrate it.


Perhaps we just haven't reached that point yet?


Then that could be another point of discussion. I just wanted to quickly shoot down the notion that something can exist without being scientifically verifiable.

(As always, please pardon me if my tone sounds aggressive. I'm trying to be quick to the point, not mean.)

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 2:30:14 PM   
Shawn1066


Posts: 987
Joined: 10/7/2007
Status: offline 		Also, it's important to note that there's a reasons why Religion is one of the three evils of conversation.  Everybody has an opinion and some people tend to get a little violent about it.  People aren't required to believe what I believe...though it'd make things a lot easier. :-p

The other two evils are, of course, politics and economics.

< Message edited by Shawn1066 -- 12/30/2007 2:32:10 PM >

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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 2:33:08 PM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
How might something exist outside of being scientifically verifiable?

It cannot, obviously and per definition. Nor is there an outside to our universe. Therefore when discussing those subjects, we must put such words refering to an 'existence' that is 'outside' our universe between quotes as I have done here, to distinguish their meaning from their common usage as refering to phenomena that are part of our universe.
 
That does not make the Divine that 'exists' 'outside' our universe any less real. Its existence can be both experienced, and it can be derived theoretically - as I have done. We are being watched by the Divine and it knows our innermost and most secret thoughts and desires.

(in reply to CuriousLord)
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