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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 2:34:57 PM

dcnovice

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
quote:

Point being, if there's a God, we should, at some point, be able to experimentally demonstrate it.

Perhaps we just haven't reached that point yet?

Then that could be another point of discussion. I just wanted to quickly shoot down the notion that something can exist without being scientifically verifiable.

(As always, please pardon me if my tone sounds aggressive. I'm trying to be quick to the point, not mean.)

I'd just caution that simply because something isn't scientifically verifiable now, doesn't mean it will never be verifiable.

Of course, the imp in me wants to ask if the premise that everything must be scientifically verifiable is itself scientifically verifiable.

(And your tone was fine, but thanks for the note.)

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to CuriousLord)

Post #: 101

RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 2:37:42 PM

CuriousLord

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

Four years of religious study and you didn't even have a clue about the divine and miraculous birth of Buddah. Very obvious you didn't study with enthusiasm. To which Order were you knighted? Of course, you weren't there so you don't know.... It must be a challenge to wake up every day knowing there is nothing left to learn.

I obviously know nothing of Buddah, true. But, could you patronize me a bit and tell me how it's so obvious I know nothing about a subject that hasn't been mentioned yet?

However, as Dawkins points out in his work, one does not need to be an expert on ruffled pantaloons and silken underwear before clamining that the Emporer is, in fact, naked.

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

My point was simply what i said, that too many people feel they are better equipped to pass judgement and declare damnation than the gods they believe in. Good to see that capacity isn't limited to believers.

There's a couple of things you need to answer for in this one! Hah, oh boy.

First.. you implied I passed judgement and declared damnation. Are you unaware of my position that passing religion-based judgement is a silly thing to do because the religions are, themselves, silly?

Second.. how can people be better equiped than gods, or even feel that way? Would not the emotions and feelings of gods be beyond mortal sembelence?

Third.. how has an athiest who argues that religions aren't true passing judgement and damnation?

(Yes, while I understand you were mostly just trying to be holier-than-thou, I'm curious on responses. And I get I'm being an ass in calling you on this, but, meh.. I'm a simple man with simple tastes. ;))

(in reply to eyesopened)

Post #: 102

RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 2:41:01 PM

CuriousLord

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
How might something exist outside of being scientifically verifiable?

It cannot, obviously and per definition. Nor is there an outside to our universe. Therefore when discussing those subjects, we must put such words refering to an 'existence' that is 'outside' our universe between quotes as I have done here, to distinguish their meaning from their common usage as refering to phenomena that are part of our universe.

That does not make the Divine that 'exists' 'outside' our universe any less real. Its existence can be both experienced, and it can be derived theoretically - as I have done. We are being watched by the Divine and it knows our innermost and most secret thoughts and desires.

Two questions (but they're sort of seperate splits).

1. What do you mean by the new usages of "exists" and "outside"? (The versions you have in '').

2. What reason do you have to believe that there's something divine out there which can, wants to, and does watch us and our inner workings constantly?

(in reply to Rule)

Post #: 103

RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 2:43:03 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
Point being, if there's a God, we should, at some point, be able to experimentally demonstrate it. The claim that something exists, but that it will never be experimentally demonstratiable, is a claim that something can not be shown to interact with our world. Such a claim is a contradiction to itself, as something must be able to interact to exist, by definition.

Quite, provided that this something is part of our universe and interacts with our universe in a causal, physical manner. However those two requirements do not apply to the Divine and to magic - also by definition, as the Divine 'exists' 'beyond' the constraints of our universe.

(in reply to CuriousLord)

Post #: 104

RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 2:46:46 PM

CuriousLord

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

I'd just caution that simply because something isn't scientifically verifiable now, doesn't mean it will never be verifiable.

Of course, the imp in me wants to ask if the premise that everything must be scientifically verifiable is itself scientifically verifiable.

The idea of verifiable is that that effected the world in a way that's verifiable.. not something that's dependent on time. Sort of like, X-rays were always verifiable, regardless of our lack of understanding or ability to verifiy them. ("Verifiable" being in the absolute sense.) I believe it's a semantic difference of usage we have here, as I can see what you mean about "verifiable" being something along the lines of "able to be verified at the current time with current technology".

Hah, you can tell the imp that non-real constructs aren't scientifically testable.. that they differ, though, from the notion of God in that the notion of God claims that there's something physically real out there, while the notion of verification is only a method for testing what's real. ;)

(Ever played an MMORPG? Imps are such funny creatures in those..)

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 105

RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 2:52:53 PM

dcnovice

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quote:

I can see what you mean about "verifiable" being something along the lines of "able to be verified at the current time with current technology".

So really, we should say that God is not verifiable now. Of course, I'm not waiting up nights for it to happen.

quote:

the notion of God claims that there's something physically real out there,

Aside from the Christian belief in the Incarnation, I'm not sure how many religions view God as physical.

quote:

Ever played an MMORPG?

Not yet.

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 12/30/2007 2:53:14 PM >

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to CuriousLord)

Post #: 106

RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 2:54:24 PM

CuriousLord

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Quite, provided that this something is part of our universe and interacts with our universe in a causal, physical manner. However those two requirements do not apply to the Divine and to magic - also by definition, as the Divine 'exists' 'beyond' the constraints of our universe.

So your argument is that the divine exists, can't be affected by us, is blind, and yet still obsesses about us enough to watch us for every moment of our lives?

Could we not say, in this instance, that even the divine interacts causally, even if the causality for typical interaction is null in effect on the divine? (To create a congruent system. This sort of system still works on the scientific level.)

(in reply to Rule)

Post #: 107

RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 2:58:10 PM

CuriousLord

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

So really, we should say that God is not verifiable now. Of course, I'm not waiting up nights for it to happen.

Also to say that, if he's real, should be verifiable in the absolute sense, which was the crux of my point. But, you're right, our lack of ability to verify him at this moment doesn't mean he's in verifiable. (My points against his ever being verifiable are in the lack of reason to even believe in him in the first place, coupled with the mathematical proof which is usually thrown out as scientifically sorcery. :P)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
quote:

the notion of God claims that there's something physically real out there,

Aside from the Christian belief in the Incarnation, I'm not sure how many religions view God as physical.

Anything that is able to interact.. anything that exists.. is physical. (Including light, magnetic waves and fields, etc.) If God can interact with the universe, he's physical. (I get a lot of religious leaders say that he's not, but they're really just ignorant to science and the definition of physical.)

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 108

RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 3:03:33 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
1. What do you mean by the new usages of "exists" and "outside"? (The versions you have in '').

Simply that it exists in reality, but not in our universe; in which our universe is a part of reality (the Divine) that distinguishes itself from reality (the Divine) by the particular parametres that are studied by physics, just like Texas is a part of the geography of Earth that distinguishes itself from the other geography of Earth by its own particular parameters.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord2. What reason do you have to believe that there's something divine out there which can, wants to, and does watch us and our inner workings constantly?

First of all about one hundred or two hundred pages of conceptual science cosmology that I spent about six years full time in deducing between 1990 and 1995, but that I have yet to publish.
Secondly personal experience.
Thirdly the personal experience and testimony of millions of other people.
Fourthly mythology. The mythology pertains to the human incarnations of the Divine, but their antics may be theologically extrapolated to the Divine itself.

(in reply to CuriousLord)

Post #: 109

RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 3:04:13 PM

CuriousLord

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I know we're carrying a couple discussions on, and I've still yet to reply to two people, but I'm afraid I have to run again.. it's sort of a busy Xmas break. :P I hope to be able to respond later this evening, or perhaps speratically before then if the oppurtunity arrises.

I would like to apologize to some, too (not to all, since it may feel like patronization in a way). I understand many base their meaning and life value in God and religion.. that this existence is, at the OP said later on in the first page, otherwise meaningless without such belief. In some sense, I understand that it is impossible to accept a world without God as Pascal's Wager finds new effect in the psycology of belief, and that my denouncing it is little beyond unpleasant and aggrivating. I would just hope that those who may feel that God must be, or all is lost, would consider the value in life itself, or perhaps in other things.. such as love, humanitarism, friendship, science, or other ends.

My thanks, too, for the points of debate, even if they are disagreed upon. One of my core values is intelligence, and such debate tends to promote thought and understanding. While it is my hope that some will learn in the end, not all is lost if everyone still walks away with the same beliefs that this discussion started with.

(in reply to CuriousLord)

Post #: 110

RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 3:04:23 PM

FullCircle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
So really, we should say that God is not verifiable now. Of course, I'm not waiting up nights for it to happen.

You can verify that God as depicted by the various religions doesn’t exist because he is either some tall bloke with sandals and a beard, A fat gold bloke that sits on his arse all day, The god named “ “, a bloke with 12 arms and an elephants head that likes to put obstacles in your way to test you. You’d think two religions would come up with the same idea as to who God should resemble by now?

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(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 111

RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 3:10:56 PM

dcnovice

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
So really, we should say that God is not verifiable now. Of course, I'm not waiting up nights for it to happen.

You can verify that God as depicted by the various religions doesn’t exist because he is either some tall bloke with sandals and a beard, A fat gold bloke that sits on his arse all day, The god named “ “, a bloke with 12 arms and an elephants head that likes to put obstacles in your way to test you. You’d think two religions would come up with the same idea as to who God should resemble by now?

In the 1500s and 1600s, European explorers returned from the Western Hemisphere with wildly different accounts of what they'd seen. Did that mean the Americas didn't exist?

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to FullCircle)

Post #: 112

RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 3:13:36 PM

FullCircle

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No but I wouldn't direct my life according to such accounts.

_____________________________

∞ ﮒuקּƹɼ ƾɛϰưϫԼ Ƨωιϯϲћ.

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 113

RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 3:15:29 PM

dcnovice

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Fair enough.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to FullCircle)

Post #: 114

RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 3:28:23 PM

FullCircle

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The problem is the religions do themselves no favours because when they find contradictions they dig their heels in rather than resolve them. They can’t risk being seen as wrong so as a result there is no evolution of ideas just people trying to find reasons in ancient texts for modern discoveries.

You didn’t really think we meant the world was created in six days did you? Obviously that description of the creation of the word was only a clue to get you questioning, see we wanted you to find the six day claim spurious. Well done you passed the test because your faith that we gave you stupid ideas for a reason won out. I’m glad we invented Darwin that was a super way of separating the doubters from the true believers wasn’t it? I knew all along the non believers would fall for the Darwin idea and believe evolution was true instead of an obvious misdirection.

Why can't they just say we got it wrong? Your God doesn't want to be found he seems to be playing games with you

< Message edited by FullCircle -- 12/30/2007 3:31:55 PM >

_____________________________

∞ ﮒuקּƹɼ ƾɛϰưϫԼ Ƨωιϯϲћ.

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 115

RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 3:40:54 PM

luckydog1

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Cl, I think one would have to stretch the meaning of Damnation pretty far to apply it to you, but you certainly pass judgement, quite a bit.

We don't have to bend over at all to reconcile a spirituality with science. You have to assume Facts about reality, that are not accepted by your scientific Peers and Betters, and declare them as fact, to hold up your belief system. And you pretend that turning thoeries/brainstorming into facts (ahead of the scientific community, with no), is using the scientific method and Math. It looks like a bending worthy of a Yoga Master to me.

What you say here
"Secondly, that story about the adultreress is NOT saying that adultry is okay (and has nothing to do with premartial sex). It's saying that it's God who will be offended and have the right to judge, not mortals (to include Jesus). In other words, to apply it to premartial sex, Jesus is saying that us humans shouldn't do the judging, that that's God's job.. he's not saying that it isn't going to be judged! "

Is pretty much Christian doctrine, and the Theology holds that Those sins will be forgiven thorough Christs Mercy. I don't think BDSM is in itself more sinfull than Monday Night Football.

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 116

RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 3:44:23 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle
The problem is the religions do themselves no favours because when they find contradictions they dig their heels in rather than resolve them. They can’t risk being seen as wrong so as a result there is no evolution of ideas just people trying to find reasons in ancient texts for modern discoveries.

Religions do not do that, but people do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle
You didn’t really think we meant the world was created in six days did you?

That was the second creation event. It truly did occur in six days.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle
Why can't they just say we got it wrong?

People do get it wrong, indeed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle
Your God doesn't want to be found he seems to be playing games with you

The Divine can be found by anyone who truly desires to do so.

(in reply to FullCircle)

Post #: 117

RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 3:44:34 PM

dcnovice

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You make a good point, FC: Religious traditions do have a hard time saying, "Oops, we got it wrong."

That said, many "mainline" Christian denominations do recognize that the Bible is not a science book, that the creation account, say, is mythical rather than literal.

My own way of viewing scriptures is that they're like accounts from those early explorers I mentioned earlier. They tell you that folks have bumped up against something new and vast and hard to grasp, but the particulars need to be taken warily and, if possible, pieced into a larger picture.

That unorthodox approach to faith is one of the key things that drew me (from a Catholic childhood and an Episcopal early adulthood) to Unitarianism. There's no dogma I have to buy or explain, just a shared commitment to spiritual exploration and attempts at a moral life. I sometimes think Unitarians are agnostics who like to sing!

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to FullCircle)

Post #: 118

RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 3:44:34 PM

luckydog1

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Full Circle, or you realise that it is Allegory concieved by primitive people who didn't even have a written language. That bizzarely lines up pretty well with what Modern Science shows us.

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 119

RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 3:51:32 PM

luckydog1

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DC, there is an old story (hindu I think) about blind men and an elephant. Way back in the day there were 5 blind beggars in a town, and a little boy was often nice to them, talking and such. So when a Circus came to thier tiny village, everyone was very excited to see the Elephant. The BLind beggars heard the Buzz, and despite having no clue what an Elephant was, wanted to see it also. So the nice Boy took them. He lined up all 5 blind men next tot he elephant, and told Them to put thier arms forward, and take 2 steps. They did so, and the first man touched the trunk of the Elephant, and declared adn Elephant is like a Snake. The second touched his tusk and declard the Elephant is like a Spear made of Ivory. The third got his ear, and declared it to be like a thick Palm mat. The 4th got his leg and declared him to be like a Palm tree. And the 5th touched his ribs and declared an elephant to be a wall.

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 120

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