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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 3:57:44 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		Lucky, I love that story and the John Godfrey Saxe poem based on it.

Saxe's conclusion:

So oft in theologic wars,
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen!

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to luckydog1)
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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 4:04:31 PM   
FullCircle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
Religions do not do that, but people do.

People are religion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
That was the second creation event. It truly did occur in six days.

Where is the centre of the universe? There are many planets out there capable of sustaining life. When we find life elsewhere will you still believe all that is around us is for our benefit alone?

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1
Full Circle, or you realise that it is Allegory concieved by primitive people who didn't even have a written language.  That bizzarely lines up pretty well with what Modern Science shows us. 


In science it is possible to come up with answers you never expect but for some reason the same can't be true of religion. There is a problem in science where you want a certain result to be true so you can interpret the results to prove your point. I think this happens with religion and is why you say they align. It doesn't make it right if I decide on an interpretation of results solely to justify a position. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
That said, many "mainline" Christian denominations do recognize that the Bible is not a science book, that the creation account, say, is mythical rather than literal.


That is the problem no? Why write a book and live your life by it if it doesn't give you the answers as to why you are living that way? I've heard of faith but seriously do you deserve no answers at all? 


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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 4:12:15 PM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		In science it is possible to come up with answers you never expect but for some reason the same can't be true of religion.

I strongly disagree, the study of Spirituality often takes us in very surprising directions.  IF you are attempting to argue against 100% literal reading of the King James version of the Bibles as 100% true down to every comma, I agree.  That is a nonsensical position to hold.  But that in no way diminishes the existance of the Spirit.

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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 4:16:31 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Why write a book and live your life by it if it doesn't give you the answers as to why you are living that way? I've heard of faith but seriously do you deserve no answers at all?


I can only speak for myself. I've never felt that I was living my life according to the Bible, nor was I ever taught to do so. In Catholicism, I learned to obey my conscience--informed partly by scripture, but also by my own reflecting on morality.

Anglicans talk of the three-legged stool: scripture, tradition, and reason. One draws on all of those in the effort to lead a faithful and wise life. In his book Rescuing the Bible From Fundamentalism, Bishop John Shelby Spong has a phrase I quite like: going from the words to the Word. Take, for instance, the question of the sabbath. One could get caught up in the minute rules of the ancient Israelites and think "This is nonsense." Or one can recognize that that small tribe had a useful insight: People need to make time and space for focusing on what really matters to them.

I'm new to Unitarianism, so I can't speak very knowledgeably about it. My sense, though, would be that people would draw what wisdom they can from both ancient texts and modern science.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to FullCircle)
Profile   Post #: 124
RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 4:34:15 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle
People are religion.
People are religious, not religion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle
Where is the centre of the universe?

Every organism is, from the most far flung extragalactic virus to me here on Earth.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle
There are many planets out there capable of sustaining life.
I know of only one other that has life on it, but as there are at least six alien species known to me, we may assume that there are as many planets capable of sustaining life - and presumably in our galaxy alone hundreds of millions.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle
When we find life elsewhere will you still believe all that is around us is for our benefit alone?

I do not believe that at all. However, I do know that at the moment life elsewhere considers us to be just about the most important event in the entire universe.

(in reply to FullCircle)
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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 4:35:02 PM   
FullCircle


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I don’t mind people having their faith what worries me is when it holds us back from finding answers. So many people were persecuted for the beliefs they held because it disproved a particular well established Religious ideology.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9902E7DE1239F930A35754C0A962948260

How dare he say the earth revolved around the sun!!!

Anyone want to go back to learning from religion?


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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 4:39:38 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Anyone want to go back to learning from religion?


For me, the key question is what we want to learn from religion. Science, no. Ideas for leading a moral life, yes (though I'd balance them with reason too).

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to FullCircle)
Profile   Post #: 127
RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 4:51:28 PM   
FullCircle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
People are religious, not religion.

I'm not.
Does religion exist without people? Was the point I was making
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
Every organism is, from the most far flung extragalactic virus to me here on Earth.

Well if we say the universe is the contents rather than the container and we assume that all explosions happen in a rather unrealistic un chaotic symmetrical way. Please now tell me why life was created at the centre of the explosion? X-Marks the spot does it?
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
but as there are at least six alien species known to me

You know more than me unless you are talking about Mexicans.

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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 4:55:08 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shawn1066

The religion is an idea



'In full agreement; any idea can be/is taken to the extreme.

Edited to add: ideas evolve. The evidence suggests the most likely outcome is this: god will cease to exist.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 12/30/2007 5:01:52 PM >

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 4:57:36 PM   
EvilGenie


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Status: offline 		Oh dc I truly love your imp, you know that?

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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 5:01:10 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EvilGenie

Oh dc I truly love your imp, you know that?


Thanks. I'm fond of him too--mostly.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to EvilGenie)
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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 5:01:19 PM   
FullCircle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
For me, the key question is what we want to learn from religion. Science, no. Ideas for leading a moral life, yes (though I'd balance them with reason too).


That is a fair point and maybe we can learn how to treat people more humanely from such examples that religion has set in terms of the witch trials, the Spanish inquisition and the crusades etc.


Why is it people think morality doesn't exist without religion?

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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 5:07:06 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

maybe we can learn how to treat people more humanely from such examples that religion has set in terms of the witch trials, the Spanish inquisition and the crusades etc.


Well, I did say I'd balance religious teachings with reason! But you're right: Institutional religion has a shadowed record.

quote:

Why is it people think morality doesn't exist without religion?


Please bear in mind that I didn't actually say that. However, I cannot imagine morality without the willingness to think religiously--that is, to accept unproven and unprovable axioms, such as "Every human has dignity and rights" or "Justice is better than injustice." But perhaps my imagination isn't broad enough.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to FullCircle)
Profile   Post #: 133
RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 5:10:50 PM   
FullCircle


Posts: 5713
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline 		dc

My morality is based on empathy. I don't want to hurt people because I understand what it is like to be hurt. I don't need religious doctrines for that.

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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 5:15:50 PM   
dcnovice


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Status: offline 		My imp can't resist pointing out that you've just reinvented the Golden Rule.

But seriously, there seems to be more than empathy going on in your morality. There's a willingness to accept and abide by an unprovable axiom: That you shouldn't inflict on others what you don't like yourself.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to FullCircle)
Profile   Post #: 135
RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 5:24:23 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle
Does religion exist without people?
Yes, it does, but then it is called a dead religion.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircleWell if we say the universe is the contents rather than the container and we assume that all explosions happen in a rather unrealistic un chaotic symmetrical way. Please now tell me why life was created at the centre of the explosion? X-Marks the spot does it?
Ah, you are one of those fanatical Big Bang hypothesis converts. So you are religious - and believe in a false god / concept, adding to the irony of your denial of being religious.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle
You know more than me
That is because I have one eye.

< Message edited by Rule -- 12/30/2007 5:25:57 PM >

(in reply to FullCircle)
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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 5:27:45 PM   
FullCircle


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Status: offline 		So you like to confuse me do you.....dc

Well then consider

Bad things happen, maybe for a reason and are part of a plan.
You pray with the knowledge that bad things happen for a reason and are part of  plan.
What are you praying for therefore? Strength?
Why would you be lacking this strength and need to ask for it?
Maybe you have no strength because it is part of the plan?

Just a thought.

_____________________________

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(in reply to dcnovice)
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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 5:43:10 PM   
FullCircle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
Ah, you are one of those fanatical Big Bang hypothesis converts. So you are religious - and believe in a false god / concept, adding to the irony of your denial of being religious.


It's the best answer to date which fits the question in relation to what we are capable of measuring and observing. If someone posed a question or demonstrated something that brought this theory into doubt a new model would then be considered by myself. This is the reason I'm not religious, it's because I know I don't have all the answers and I'm not prepared to fill in the blanks with convenient maybes.

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RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 5:44:11 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

So you like to confuse me do you.....dc


No, I just share my own confusion in the hope that muddling along together might lead to new insights.

quote:

Bad things happen, maybe for a reason and are part of a plan.
You pray with the knowledge that bad things happen for a reason and are part of  plan.


I'm honestly not sure I buy the idea that bad things are necessarily part of a plan.

quote:

What are you praying for therefore? Strength?


I have a 12-step background, so I tend to ask for knowledge of God's will and the power to carry it out. A lot of time, I just lift up (metaphorically) whatever's on my mind and heart.

quote:

Why would you be lacking this strength and need to ask for it?


The most honest answer I could give here is "I don't know." It may be auto-hypnosis, but prayer (when I do it, which is not as often as I'd like) somehow takes me out of minute-by-minute mayhem and connects me to a stillness within and/or a deeper reality. It may be that the strength was there all along, but the quiet work of praying helps draw it out.

quote:

Maybe you have no strength because it is part of the plan?


A possibility, I suppose, if there is indeed a plan.

quote:

Just a thought.


More than that. They were good, honest, probing questions for which I wish I had better answers.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to FullCircle)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: Christianity and BDSM - 12/30/2007 5:58:25 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle
If someone posed a question or demonstrated something that brought this theory into doubt a new model would then be considered by myself.
That is easy. You are aware that the redshift of far galaxies does not prove that the universe is expanding? Instead that is merely an interpretation hypothesis, not a fact. You are also aware that the cosmic background radiation was conveniently ascribed to the expansion of the universe, and thus is a derived - and hence suspect - interpretation hypothesis?
 
So here is the question: is it possible by experimental means to independently from redshift and cbr prove the expansion of the universe within a plausible period? (Hypothetically it is possible to bounce a radar beam off the dust in those far galaxies - say at a distance of two hundred million light years - and to measure their distance at intervals of say ten thousand years, but it would take four hundred million years to get the results. That obviously is not a plausible period.)
 
So you had better consider a new model.

< Message edited by Rule -- 12/30/2007 5:59:44 PM >

(in reply to FullCircle)
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