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RE: Slaves, Submissives & Dirty Girls - 12/19/2007 6:11:38 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

In the interest of making this a serious discussion ... which actually was my intent ... I'm very interested in hearing how many other people have had this experience, or lack of experience, as the case may be.

 
I have had the experience of people trying to put me into the role they believed I should inhabit. I have been told by someone who had an opinion that I valued that I was not "submisive", and questioned my submissiveness. I have at times questioned it myself.

 
quote:

Example ... meet a clear dominant at a club, and talk to him. It's clear what he is and what he wants. He makes it clear. No blame going his way. Now, along comes Cait, who says the right things ... to be his, to be owned, to be controlled ... blah, blah, blah ... but of course, the first time he doesn't like how I'm dressed and wants me to change, or doesn't like my new hair cut ... I tell him to get fucked if he can't accept me the way I am.
 

 
I am one of those people who wants to be accepted for the way that I am, and it takes a very long time for a dominant to gain enough control over me to where I would allow them to tell me to cut my hair or to do any other thing that I wanted to retain control over... now I am in a relationship where that has happened. I did know I wanted a relationship in which I gave my control over, but it takes time to actually do so

quote:

Hell, I've been playing this stupid game for about two years now. Submissive ... you must be kidding.
 
Was I pissed at him ... you bet! The first thing that came into my head (insert sarcastic voice), was "Well Mr. Smarty-Pants, since I'm not your 'submissive' anymore, maybe I will get the paddle and strapon, and show you a thing or two!!" Was I pissed? I was drive back home about twenty minutes later, pissed. Then we talked, with me an hour away, and we discovered how well my car comes back to him ... just like me. He's Mr. Right, and I know it.
 
So, the point (finally) ... there has got to be some people on here that have been playing this game, longer than me. I would be curious to hear about similar experiences.


I have learned something about myself. It is not that I am "submissive" all the time, it is that someone will come along and spark that quality in me, and to them I am submissive. Without that person that sparks me, I am not submissive.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Slaves, Submissives & Dirty Girls - 12/19/2007 8:26:40 PM   
exogenous


Posts: 57
Joined: 3/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
I have had the experience of people trying to put me into the role they believed I should inhabit. I have been told by someone who had an opinion that I valued that I was not "submisive", and questioned my submissiveness. I have at times questioned it myself.

I am one of those people who wants to be accepted for the way that I am, and it takes a very long time for a dominant to gain enough control over me to where I would allow them to tell me to cut my hair or to do any other thing that I wanted to retain control over... now I am in a relationship where that has happened. I did know I wanted a relationship in which I gave my control over, but it takes time to actually do so

I have learned something about myself. It is not that I am "submissive" all the time, it is that someone will come along and spark that quality in me, and to them I am submissive. Without that person that sparks me, I am not submissive.


I very much relate to what you have written, especially the last paragraph.

I had a relationship with a Dom and as we got to know each other we discussed what submission meant, how he defined it and how I defined it. At first it was very different because I was new to the D/s dynamic and had preconceived ideas. It was a good and worthwhile learning experience and opened my eyes and mind.

About a year after that relationship ended (and after much reading of books, threads on various boards, and talking with different folks) I met another man who considered himself a Dom. However, it often seemed as if his goal in our relationship was to just shoot down every thought or opinion I had regarding submission.  He told me I was as submissive as a rhino.  Talk about self-doubt!

Perhaps he was just trying to "reshape" me in some way.  I have no problem with learning or understanding things from a different POV. However, he was sure going about it in a most negative way.

I'd never had such discord and only a little confusion (at times) when I was with my former Dom. He seemed very pleased with my submission...so what was wrong with me? I finally realized that this new guy was right, but only when it came to our relationship...I was not submissive with him.

So I whole-heartedly agree with your statement, "without that person that sparks me I am not submissive."

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Slaves, Submissives & Dirty Girls - 12/19/2007 9:00:20 PM   
petdave


Posts: 2479
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
But ... "dirty girl ... now that's romantic.   I'm not sure ice water, can ever be quite that cold ... except, it's true ... I guess.
 
Any other takers out there ... willing to throw off the very cool label, and just be what they are?


Sure. Wanna trade for "freak" or "pervert:"? "Dirty Girl" sounds very Top-40, i could go for that.

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Slaves, Submissives & Dirty Girls - 12/19/2007 9:03:46 PM   
LaMspeach


Posts: 794
Joined: 12/4/2004
From: Philadelphia area, PA
Status: offline 		Hi Caitlyn, I loved what Simply Michael wrote and I agree with

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I have learned something about myself. It is not that I am "submissive" all the time, it is that someone will come along and spark that quality in me, and to them I am submissive. Without that person that sparks me, I am not submissive.


I Don’t think being submissive or a slave is like waving a magic wand and puff you're an “s” type.  For me I need that spark, the basics might have been there  but I needed some one to teach me, nurtured and made to feel safe so I could let that  side of shine through.  I also needed to find me and what I needed and wanted before I could give away that side of me. MY thought has always been  “ you can’t give it away if you don’t know what it is”

You also have to remember that if being his dirty girl is what works best for you and the relationship you have with him then in my eyes that is wonderful. Also remember no matter they say there is NO GRAND BOOK OF RULES and what is one person dirty girl may be some one else’s ideal slave.


_____________________________

peach ~ LordandMasters devoted alpha slave
"Only when the year has grown cold does one know that the pine and cypress are the last to wither"



(in reply to exogenous)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Slaves, Submissives & Dirty Girls - 12/19/2007 9:14:56 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		FR:

LOL just make yourself "switch" everywhere and then talk about throwing away a "cool label"

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Slaves, Submissives & Dirty Girls - 12/19/2007 9:16:42 PM   
marieToo


Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

but of course, the first time he doesn't like how I'm dressed and wants me to change, or doesn't like my new hair cut ... I tell him to get fucked if he can't accept me the way I am.
 


If you don't think you are submissive, there is nothing wrong with that.  But a possibility struck me when I read this line.  I wonder if maybe you just haven't met a dominant yet who inspires your compliance, or draws your submission to the surface. 

You said you've been into this for a couple of years---It's not uncommon for a lot of submissives to start out experiencing wiitwd sexually, and then progress to a point where they want the control and the dominance to deepen beyond that, and into other areas of one's life.

I mean, there's nothing wrong with being just a dirty girl either, but a lot of girls who consider themselves submissives or slaves were just dirty girls when they started out, then found themselves craving more and more control. 

_____________________________

marie.


I give good agita.









(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Slaves, Submissives & Dirty Girls - 12/19/2007 9:44:22 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

also needed to find me and what I needed and wanted before I could give away that side of me. MY thought has always been “ you can’t give it away if you don’t know what it is”


We should only give away that which we can afford to give away... perhaps it takes a while to feel one is able to give that much away. The desire is there, but the wherewithall to give it isn't yet, and that takes some doing for some of us. There can be that wall that seems like it is unsubmissive, but in reality it is a wall to protect the submissive behind it, and it takes someone special willing to get past that wall


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to LaMspeach)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Slaves, Submissives & Dirty Girls - 12/19/2007 10:23:37 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

FR:

LOL just make yourself "switch" everywhere and then talk about throwing away a "cool label"


I'm going to start referring to myself as a "dirty girl", I think it sounds cooler than "switch".  I don't care what the OP's partner thought it said, I like it. (I'm actually serious here).

Seriously does it matter either way?

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Slaves, Submissives & Dirty Girls - 12/19/2007 11:36:39 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:



There can be that wall that seems like it is unsubmissive, but in reality it is a wall to protect the submissive behind it, and it takes someone special willing to get past that wall



That someone 'special' can be the person who built the wall in the first place. You don't have to use a sledge hammer and break it all down at once, but that doesn't mean you can't take a chisel and chip away a piece at a time. Even baby steps, eventually, take you places.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Slaves, Submissives & Dirty Girls - 12/20/2007 12:18:00 AM   
brightspot


Posts: 3052
Status: offline 		~FR
 
Interesting discussion.
 
It's been a bit different for me, inside I
have always been a "dirty girl", in Jr. ans Sr.
high I was know as a good girl as I wasn't into
boys...I wanted "Jesse's Girl"
 
I was a dirty girl in the sense that I thought dirty
about girls, does that count?
 
When I met people "like me" a bit later in life, I
was diffenately know as a dirty girl(Lesbian, Bi
and gay men as that was the crowd I ran with), I
guess you could say I had "a reputation" but htat
Rep included "good in the sack", so it was okay
with me, in the 70's.
 
I had a lot of fun being a dirty girl amongst girls, ahhhh,
those were the days, my friends .
 
But I gotta tell ya, when I discoverd D/s and experienced
it R/L, and I could be really dirty, the dirtier the better with
my Domina....I was twuely home !
 
It was great that I new to be a "good" submissive, but a dirty
girl in bed, yes, some lesbian's like that too.
 
Missy.


_____________________________

"Comedy is NOT Pretty!" ~Peter Nelson

But..."May at Least One person have a sense of Humor!" ~KML.

http://360.yahoo.com/my_profile-TD4TwEw8crWS3GHFDcs_DK1rHmW6Dq_E;_ylt=Av2PfG9gH0wkQrMPivuMCivGAOJ3

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Slaves, Submissives & Dirty Girls - 12/20/2007 1:48:35 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Don't forget fiddlefuck ...
 
In the interest of making this a serious discussion ... which actually was my intent ... I'm very interested in hearing how many other people have had this experience, or lack of experience, as the case may be.
 
Example ... meet a clear dominant at a club, and talk to him. It's clear what he is and what he wants. He makes it clear. No blame going his way. Now, along comes Cait, who says the right things ... to be his, to be owned, to be controlled ... blah, blah, blah ... but of course, the first time he doesn't like how I'm dressed and wants me to change, or doesn't like my new hair cut ... I tell him to get fucked if he can't accept me the way I am.
 
Hell, I've been playing this stupid game for about two years now. Submissive ... you must be kidding.
 
Was I pissed at him ... you bet! The first thing that came into my head (insert sarcastic voice), was "Well Mr. Smarty-Pants, since I'm not your 'submissive' anymore, maybe I will get the paddle and strapon, and show you a thing or two!!" Was I pissed? I was drive back home about twenty minutes later, pissed. Then we talked, with me an hour away, and we discovered how well my car comes back to him ... just like me. He's Mr. Right, and I know it.
 
So, the point (finally) ... there has got to be some people on here that have been playing this game, longer than me. I would be curious to hear about similar experiences.


Damn - I go away and sleep (damn timezones)and it gets serious.
 
On the serious points however cait, with all honesty I partly agree with Stephann and topcat, that your still young - and that's not a 'young in age' kinda young, but 'young in yourself' young (if that makes sense) - your still finding your feet and where your submission or bottoming lies and quite honestly anyone telling you what you are isn't what you need -instead try and surround yourself with people who let you be who you are and are who are the lightbulb moments that illuminate your potential.
 
Nothing wrong with being both a dirty girl and being submissive with it.  I know I am.  I will and am also a lady, a woman, a bitch and whatever happens to be right at one particular moment.
 
Submission isn't easy and sometimes on a message board like this or when you read the books it comes across as being entirely natural and if it's not natural it's not really submission.  But that's bull.  It's not all yes sir - immediately sir - three bags full m'lady.  It's hard, tiring, swearing at yourself and at them kick in the gut difficult at times.
 
I personally don;t think it's got anything to do with the whole 'you haven't met the right dominant yet' kind of thing.  It's simply that you are still discovering and growing - not that I still don't at the age I am - but I gave up beating myself up over it now, which you will eventually.  You held back, you left, you returned.  Now your vulnerable.  It takes a big person run away caitlyn, and a wiser one to return and face your concerns... and by what you wrote in your post - you did both.
 
You rocked at being yourself, and that's all that matters.
 
the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Slaves, Submissives & Dirty Girls - 12/20/2007 2:13:46 AM   
ExSteelAgain


Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline 		Dom, rattles his keys in his hand symbolically as he prepares to leave, kisses girl on forehead  in a lovingly condescending manner and pontificates, "You're really not a submissive."

Required reply, "Oh, yes, I am, Mr. Dom. I'll prove it to you. What do you want me to do?"



_____________________________

You can paint a cinder block bright pastel pink, but it's still a cinder block. (By Me.)

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Slaves, Submissives & Dirty Girls - 12/20/2007 4:46:57 AM   
TysGalilah


Posts: 589
Joined: 11/21/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kellendra

Personally always liked the word  chanteuse's.....always remember my grandmother calling some lady down the road a chanteusey floozy....I had no idea wtf it meant....but liked the sound of it.
A girl's gotta have something to aspire to afterall.
A box, is a box and a box,people often try and squeeze you into one...one size doesn't fit all and labels usually fall off.
But Hoo raayyy for dirty girls, half of us wouldn't be here if it weren't for those gals.
 
 

 
overpowering urge to sing the lyrics
   " mama's gotta squeeze box.....daddy never sleeps at night"
 


_____________________________

galilah

.."There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. " Edith Wharton

(in reply to Kellendra)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Slaves, Submissives & Dirty Girls - 12/20/2007 6:03:18 AM   
LittleWench


Posts: 265
Joined: 11/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
Not long ago, a man I've been seeing and become quite close to, a very dominant man, was going away for a while. We had the chance to spend some time together before he left, to cuddle, to talk, and for a bit of play-time. In the part of the date weekend loosely termed "post fun time", he looked me in the eyes and said he cared about me too much to let me fight this battle with myself. He told me he has known many submissives, and a few slaves ... and that I was neither. He told me that he loved me, and respected me ... but that I would never fit in, because truth be told, I'm just a simple, dirty girl.


Well, Bah!  Humbug!

My Owner and I had a D&M today (sadly in the lack of S&M a D&M is the best we can do right now!).  We had a day where ever foot we put seemed to be in the wrong place and we were stepping on each other's toes.  He questioned his dominance, and questioned my submissiveness (in relation to his ability to dominate).  Finally I said...

"There is nobody here to judge us, no standard we have to reach.  The only person who will judge my submissiveness is you, the only person who cares how dominant you are is me, there is nobody else here to say we are doing it right or doing it wrong.  Does it matter if we do it differently to everybody else if that is what works for us".

Just because your Dom has never known anyone like YOU before, that doesn't mean you aren't submissive.

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Slaves, Submissives & Dirty Girls - 12/20/2007 6:21:35 AM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		I don't know about anyone else, but  am now singing "Jersey Girl"....and substituting dirty girl

Bruce Springsteen

(in reply to LittleWench)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Slaves, Submissives & Dirty Girls - 12/20/2007 6:37:53 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

FR:

LOL just make yourself "switch" everywhere and then talk about throwing away a "cool label"


I'm going to start referring to myself as a "dirty girl", I think it sounds cooler than "switch".  I don't care what the OP's partner thought it said, I like it. (I'm actually serious here).

Seriously does it matter either way?


I don't think it matters either way


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to laurell3)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Slaves, Submissives & Dirty Girls - 12/20/2007 6:45:21 AM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		I get so weary of labels.  I know we need them as a general classification.  But I wish people could just be who they are.  I know it's a novel idea and one without popularity.

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Slaves, Submissives & Dirty Girls - 12/20/2007 7:04:14 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Try A Little Tenderness
Otis Redding

oh she may be weary
them young girls they do get wearied
wearing that same old miniskirt dress
but when she gets weary
you try a little tenderness
oh man that
un hunh
i know shes waiting
just anticipating
the thing that youl never never possess
no no no
but while she there waiting
try just a little bit of tenderness
thats all you got to do
now it might be a little bit sentimental no
but she has her greavs and care
but the soft words they are spoke so gentle
yeah yeah yeah
and it makes it easier to bear
oh she wont regret it
no no
them young girls they dont forget it
love is their whole happiness
yeah yeha yeah
but its all so easy
all you got to do is try
try a little tenderness
yeah
damn that hart (hard?)
all you got to do is know how to love her
you've got to
hold her
squeeze her
never leave her
now get to her
got got got to try a little tenderness
yeah yeah
lord have mercy now
all you got to do is take my advice
you've got to hold her
don't squeeze her
never leave her
you've got to hold her
and never
so you got to try a little tenderness
a little tenderness
a little tenderness
a little tenderness
you've got to
got to got to
you've gotta hold her
don't squeeze her
never leaver her
you got
got got got to
now now now
got got got to
try a little tenderness
ye


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to KatyLied)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Slaves, Submissives & Dirty Girls - 12/20/2007 8:35:16 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline

My impression of you from your posting is that you have a strong personality (which is good) and you question authority. These traits combined with your sub kink mean that you are an INDEPENDENT SLAVE, not a dirty girl.

An independent slave has depth and complexity of character, whereas a "dirty girl" is more just a shallow hedonist.

Many DOMs lack the skill set to manage and independent slave, so they just project "the problem" onto you.


(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Slaves, Submissives & Dirty Girls - 12/20/2007 8:55:00 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

he looked me in the eyes and said he cared about me too much to let me fight this battle with myself. He told me he has known many submissives, and a few slaves ... and that I was neither. He told me that he loved me, and respected me ... but that I would never fit in, because truth be told, I'm just a simple, dirty girl.

 
I'm always a bit skeptical of statements like this, proclaiming someone to *be* or *not be* something or other.  If the statement is accurate, it's only by chance.  In truth, when people make proclamations like this, they mean that you're not "submissive to them" or "not submissive in the way that appeals to them". 
 
Submission and Dominance are funny things in that we don't all feel and act submissive or Dominant to everyone we meet... even those to whom we are attracted to on certain levels.  Submission and Dominance in the manner of a power exchange are personal relationships... not personality traits (though one can also be submissive/dominant as a personality trait... but that's an entirely different issue). 
 
Bottom line is that no one can tell you categorically that you are *not* a submissive or Dominant.... just that you are not with them... or that you are not to their standards or needs.  At best it can only be a relative statement on an individual level, rather than a universal statement for all potential partners.

 
quote:


Labels ... to a point we all want one. I think being able to call myself a slave would be really cool. There are some slaves on here that I look up to. Submissive, Sub, even Subbie all sound so fun and in a strange sort of way, sophisticated ... you know, "I'm Cait, and I'm a Submissive!"

 
Labels are a reasonable introductory descriptive terms, in that they convey some general information right up front.  But within those labels there exists enormous variety, so it's not possibel to know someone just by their label any more than it is to know that someone is male or female and think that you actually know them on a personal level.

 
quote:


But ... "dirty girl ... now that's romantic.   I'm not sure ice water, can ever be quite that cold ... except, it's true ... I guess.

 
When expressing what I look for in a potential partner, I often use the expression "good girl who wishes to cultivate her bad girl qualities" (I believe that appears in my profile somewhere), but "dirty girl" could just as easily replace "bad girl" without changing the meaning one iota.  Personally, I love the contrast inherent to a "good girl" outward appearance and a "bad/dirty girl" behavior at my direction, so I can appreciate how you would find it a romantic notion as well. 

quote:


Any other takers out there ... willing to throw off the very cool label, and just be what they are? Anyone care to have a discussion about how many dirty girls there are out there, that are actually hiding behind some label?


Labels do not make us what we are, they (austensibly) describe what we are.  And while individuals will make up their own minds about us as they get to know us, no one but ourselves imposes descriptive labels upon us when we introduce ourselves to others.  I am always an advocate of being yourself, and portraying yourself as you are.
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 80
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