RE: how many of the pros get called a prostitute?

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MisPandora -> RE: how many of the pros get called a prostitute? (12/27/2007 1:01:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ElaineSubmits I think the real question is whether those whose motivation is primarily financial should be considered a legitimate part of the bdsm community, or simply parasites upon that community. I'm sure that the pros who are constantly pursued by the BDSM community to be their teachers and presenters will welcome the break since they're so illegitimate. quote: Personally, I find it hard to understand how any submissive could find it very meaningful to "submit" to someone who was interested in him or her strictly for the buck. Do you now? I find it more reprehensible for a person in a glass house to pass judgement, play High Minister of All Things Kink and determine who's kink is more deserving, legitimate, authentic or real. Why not just accept that it's not your cup of fucking tea and move along now?

MsSaskia -> RE: how many of the pros get called a prostitute? (12/27/2007 1:46:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ElaineSubmits It's puzzling to me what the big deal is about a "pro domme" being called a prostitute. The laws definining prostitution differ in every jurisdiction. Traditionally, "sex" was defined as penetration, so by that standard most "pro dommes" are not, per se, engaged in prostitution. Many people think of a prostitute as anyone who provides a sexual service for money, so by that standard, it is prostitution, and in some jurisdictions, the law does take a similar definition. I think the real question is whether those whose motivation is primarily financial should be considered a legitimate part of the bdsm community, or simply parasites upon that community. Personally, I find it hard to understand how any submissive could find it very meaningful to "submit" to someone who was interested in him or her strictly for the buck. What a charming introduction to CollarChat! Your very first post, and you're calling pro dommes parasites. I know that people like you are obsessed and fixated on the financial aspect of pro domination and have made up your mind that that's the only significance of a professional relationship, but there are a lot of businesses that cater exclusively to the BDSM community. Every vendor you see online or at a conference caters exclusively to the BDSM community and earns their living that way. Every person who runs a BDSM club is catering to the BDSM community and earning a buck doing so. Do you figure every person who earns money by catering to the BDSM enthusiast is a parasite, or do you just have a special place in your heart for pro dommes? And as far as me personally being a parasite on my BDSM community, I serve on a board of directors for a leather charity, volunteer regularly at a leather club and at our annual leather conference, and present endless workshops, all free of charge as a service to my community. So eat me. For free.

Saaaam -> RE: how many of the pros get called a prostitute? (12/27/2007 1:50:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsSaskia I serve on a board of directors for a leather charity What does a leather charity do?

MsSaskia -> RE: how many of the pros get called a prostitute? (12/27/2007 1:58:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Saaaam quote: ORIGINAL: MsSaskia I serve on a board of directors for a leather charity What does a leather charity do? A leather charity does fundraisers to support the leather community. People in need in our community may apply for loans or grants. To the best of my knowledge, www.LeatherMagick.org is the only leather-specific charity in existence.

ElaineSubmits -> RE: how many of the pros get called a prostitute? (12/27/2007 2:25:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HeavansKeeper quote: ORIGINAL: ElaineSubmits It's puzzling to me what the big deal is about a "pro domme" being called a prostitute. The laws definining prostitution differ in every jurisdiction. Traditionally, "sex" was defined as penetration, so by that standard most "pro dommes" are not, per se, engaged in prostitution. Many people think of a prostitute as anyone who provides a sexual service for money, so by that standard, it is prostitution, and in some jurisdictions, the law does take a similar definition. I think the real question is whether those whose motivation is primarily financial should be considered a legitimate part of the bdsm community, or simply parasites upon that community. Personally, I find it hard to understand how any submissive could find it very meaningful to "submit" to someone who was interested in him or her strictly for the buck. I likes it. QFT. Allow me to bring forth the philosophical paradox in all BDSM. I firmly believe the submissive has the Ace of Spades. All the other cards are given and taken at the dominant's will (plus agreed limitations). The submissive can always leave. For that matter, so can the dominant, but it's rare to find dominants feeling abused. (Please hold your 1 in 1,000,000,000 stories). Like all dominants, pro dommes are limited by that Ace of Spades. D/s couples (here meaning clients and professionals, aswell) silently agree to pretend the dominant is in control. This is why it's called submission. Temporarily submitting one's power to another's. Silently. It means we don't bring it up. D/s relationships (here not meaning professionals and clients) do this by not talking about it. You rarely see a slave teasing his or her master about having the ultimate power, even though she does. In professional-client D/s relationships, clients do not brag about their having the ultimate power. By calling the domme a prostitute one is doing the opposite. Calling your (would-be) pro-domme a prostitute is reminding her that her power (as a dominant) is untrue. It's treating the domme like an employee, which is a position of submission, not dominance. .... . That's a commonly held viewpoint, that it's really the submissive who is in control, but I have never been able to figure that one out. As you say, either one can leave. In that sense, bdsm relationships are just like any other. It's the partner who is less committed who is in control. I suppose I'd agree with your point about "pro dommes". For whatever reason, the customer is willing to pretend that he's (It is almost always a man, after all.) not in control.

DiannaVesta -> RE: how many of the pros get called a prostitute? (12/27/2007 4:22:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsSaskia quote: ORIGINAL: ElaineSubmits It's puzzling to me what the big deal is about a "pro domme" being called a prostitute. The laws definining prostitution differ in every jurisdiction. Traditionally, "sex" was defined as penetration, so by that standard most "pro dommes" are not, per se, engaged in prostitution. Many people think of a prostitute as anyone who provides a sexual service for money, so by that standard, it is prostitution, and in some jurisdictions, the law does take a similar definition. I think the real question is whether those whose motivation is primarily financial should be considered a legitimate part of the bdsm community, or simply parasites upon that community. Personally, I find it hard to understand how any submissive could find it very meaningful to "submit" to someone who was interested in him or her strictly for the buck. What a charming introduction to CollarChat! Your very first post, and you're calling pro dommes parasites. I know that people like you are obsessed and fixated on the financial aspect of pro domination and have made up your mind that that's the only significance of a professional relationship, but there are a lot of businesses that cater exclusively to the BDSM community. Every vendor you see online or at a conference caters exclusively to the BDSM community and earns their living that way. Every person who runs a BDSM club is catering to the BDSM community and earning a buck doing so. Do you figure every person who earns money by catering to the BDSM enthusiast is a parasite, or do you just have a special place in your heart for pro dommes? And as far as me personally being a parasite on my BDSM community, I serve on a board of directors for a leather charity, volunteer regularly at a leather club and at our annual leather conference, and present endless workshops, all free of charge as a service to my community. So eat me. For free. As you probably already know, you will always have to confront shit like this. You can’t justify or make good common sense to people who have no clue and shrouded with ignorance. Once they have this agenda wild horses won’t change their mind. Even if they say, “Oh yeah, that makes sense!” The reality is that they will never really understand. I have spent years and years making contributions to the community. Countless venues, articles, workshops, groups, free sites, way too many damn emails. There are the people that appreciate what you do, learn from it and then there are the people that want to pick it apart and find something evil. Its an aspect of human nature I hate but nonetheless part of our existence. I hate seeing such a beautiful and intelligent woman as yourself (and the other truly incredible Goddesses that SPEND their precious fucking time being here in the first place) waste your time to defend any of this. I understand why you do and I’ve also been up on that soap box. My profile clearly states that I charge a fee for training. Nope, not a pro domme but and experienced lifestyle mistress that accepts student for a journey. Call it what you will but that I my platform. So I give them my web site and after they actually READ that they have to PAY money to talk to me I get these nasty ass, ignorant replies about NOT being real, only in it for the money, blah blah. “But Goddess I am applying for a domestic servant to make YOUR world better. A full time 24/7 slave.” Yeah right! 95% (or higher) of the ALL people (yes even here with all the REAL lifestyle people) haven’t a clue what that really means. Sometimes I read these threads and shake my head. WTF? They honestly have no idea what goes into building a well balanced D/s relationship, ESPECIALLY one that integrates the lifestyle. So I am learning to do what I do in the state I live in now (Virginia) filled with hardcore conservative bible thumping prejudice beings… I smile, say “God Bless you too.” and I walk away. I don’t let it ruffles my feather… I mean I try not to - lol- and I remind myself that it’s the journey they are on. Big, small, right, wrong- we all are on one and the only thing you can really do is live as an example of what you truly believe.

Politesub53 -> RE: how many of the pros get called a prostitute? (12/27/2007 4:38:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MuscleCuteClever quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: MuscleCuteClever and yeh, them guys who want to get Pro session etc. I think they are a pain too and influence the social environment of these places in such a way that is detrimental to others. How can anyone who is more openminded than you, influence anywhere to be socially detrimental ? pro Dommes provide a service, some guys decide to use it. Whats the problem with this in general and how does it affect yor enviroment ? Being open minded or not is not the same thing as being intelligent and understanding sociology or not. Seeing as you asked I have spoken to many Dommes from all over the world over the years on this thing now and its all the same, they dont find, some never will therfor a Pro Dommes (who is into it) chances will be less if not as little as a cold day in hell. No offence these are the facts. People in the scene often regard their aspirations within the scene as an individual, Which would be good if the larger environment was functional enough for the individual’s aspirations to succeed within. However as some might know it is a relatively dysfunctional environment especially for F/m. The larger environment is what the individual exists within so an individual’s aspirations are sought from that. Therefore individualism does not always lend itself to the environment, Co-operation would improve the larger environment and move towards an environment where individualism is more viable. I think the complaints and issues are just a reflection of the things others take issue with and part of a hypocrisy in which people either fail or neglect to realize, which in turn gets echoed back and forth. Few seem to have a "“sociological telescope"” powerful enough to see it. I have 100's of pages written up on this subject, Your first whole post neither anwers my question or makes much sense. Quite simply, within a very large bdsm enviroment, how does the fact there are pro Dommes and clients adversely affect you ? I agree there are many woman here, not in the forums but on the other side, who see this as an easy way to make money. Even then, it has no effect on me. If i get a message thats asking for cash to chat, i hit delete and move on. Many of the proDommes on the forum kindly reply to questions, and are happy to do so with no cash exchange. You later assert all this came about in 1998, yet earlier make claim to the long standing of the fettish community in the UK. It has been mentioned in English Literature as far back as 1750 or so, as a house of flagellation. Are you telling me its taken 250 years for people to realise there was a way to make money with this. The reason why i used the words narrow minded, is because i am astounded that people in a mainly underground community can be so judgemental.

Politesub53 -> RE: how many of the pros get called a prostitute? (12/27/2007 4:50:01 AM)
I think the question of who holds the upper hand in a relationship, is like the chicken and egg question. In a proDomme relationship, many Ladys wont agree to the client having any control over what goes on, other than the initial do`s and donts. In a D/s relationship, yes you can argue that the submissive could walk, so therefore calls the shots. However, that is akin to saying that one party calls the shots in a vanilla relationship. The truth is, both sides could walk, or call of off being D or s. My view is if you happen to be the party thats dumped, the pain will be equal whatever your calling. As for proDommes being parasites. Is a butcher or a builder a parasite All it is another service, no more and no less. Many of the BDSM books films and magazines we all read and watch are written and made by proDommes so in that respect they are giving their knowledge, gained via experience, back to the lifestyle.

Jasmyn -> RE: how many of the pros get called a prostitute? (12/27/2007 6:03:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ElaineSubmits It's puzzling to me what the big deal is about a "pro domme" being called a prostitute. Personally, I make the distinction because the client thinking he is seeing a prostitute is going to be bitterly disappointed when he is put into a frock and made to wash my smalls, given a sound spanking and a clip across the balls for giving me jip. Which protects me legally. Prostitution is legal in my country but abuse is not. I have to know a client who is coming to session with me is seeking the types of sessions I provide. It is this acknowledgement that protects me. I have discussed this on a number of occassions with the local constabulary, hypothetically, what would happen if a client went to them claiming abuse. To which the general consensus is, it would be standard proceedure to investigate, but of course [the investigating officers] would take into account that this person had initiated and consented to B&D or S&M session. By disassociating my services from that of prostitution, it leaves no room for error and is my one and only fall back should an investigation befall me. I make the distinction also because generally speaking men seeking sex are not men I want to be alone with in a playroom full of implements of sadism and bondage. It is in my interest, health, and safety that clients are screened via their phone calls and initial meetings until I am satisfied they are seeking domination experience, and not a fuck. To that end a couple of the local prostitutes do a roaring trade off me as I pass on their contact details rather frequently. I also make the distinction because a lot of prostitutes I know can't stand catering to the B&D, Fetish, S&M, submissive demographic ... telling me they'd rather do sex work any day and I'm welcome to them. I respect their work and they respect mine. We don't tramp on each others territory. quote: I think the real question is whether those whose motivation is primarily financial should be considered a legitimate part of the bdsm community, or simply parasites upon that community. I wouldn't consider this to be a 'real question' in the context you're hoping ... the BDSM community is wide ranging ... I could argue the legitimacy of 'Gor' in a BDSM context ...or the legitimacy of 'Daddy/daughter' relationships in a BDSM context ...or the legitimacy of 'Master/slave' relationships in a BDSM context. I could argue these relationships are parasites within the BDSM community ... but I don't ...because they are all legitimately entitled to claim their status within a BDSM context. As is a professional Pro Dom or professional Bondage Master. quote: Personally, I find it hard to understand how any submissive could find it very meaningful to "submit" to someone who was interested in him or her strictly for the buck. It may help you to understand if you try not looking at the financial transaction as been the only motivation of the pro dom ... as often it is not ... well those of us with longevity anyway ... yes a lot of people jump into it thinking they can make a quick buck ... but we have to really like this shit to do it well ... and it is this reality, the fact we revel in their little wee perversions and pleasures ... that brings a client back again and again. It is been genuine in our enjoyment of them ...that makes the sessions meaningful for the submissive. The reality is for the submissive male when he finds a dominant, professional or not, who is genuinely into the experience, who genuinely takes pleasure in her status as the 'dom' in the power exchange, who makes no excuses for it, who gleefully sits upon her pedastal and waits to be adored ... is heaven on earth ... and money or not ...he will ache and crave and move mountains to be at her feet ...for a moment or always.

MsSaskia -> RE: how many of the pros get called a prostitute? (12/27/2007 11:32:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DiannaVesta As you probably already know, you will always have to confront shit like this. You can’t justify or make good common sense to people who have no clue and shrouded with ignorance. Once they have this agenda wild horses won’t change their mind. Even if they say, “Oh yeah, that makes sense!” The reality is that they will never really understand. I have spent years and years making contributions to the community. Countless venues, articles, workshops, groups, free sites, way too many damn emails. There are the people that appreciate what you do, learn from it and then there are the people that want to pick it apart and find something evil. Its an aspect of human nature I hate but nonetheless part of our existence. I hate seeing such a beautiful and intelligent woman as yourself (and the other truly incredible Goddesses that SPEND their precious fucking time being here in the first place) waste your time to defend any of this. I understand why you do and I’ve also been up on that soap box. My profile clearly states that I charge a fee for training. Nope, not a pro domme but and experienced lifestyle mistress that accepts student for a journey. Call it what you will but that I my platform. So I give them my web site and after they actually READ that they have to PAY money to talk to me I get these nasty ass, ignorant replies about NOT being real, only in it for the money, blah blah. “But Goddess I am applying for a domestic servant to make YOUR world better. A full time 24/7 slave.” Yeah right! 95% (or higher) of the ALL people (yes even here with all the REAL lifestyle people) haven’t a clue what that really means. Sometimes I read these threads and shake my head. WTF? They honestly have no idea what goes into building a well balanced D/s relationship, ESPECIALLY one that integrates the lifestyle. So I am learning to do what I do in the state I live in now (Virginia) filled with hardcore conservative bible thumping prejudice beings… I smile, say “God Bless you too.” and I walk away. I don’t let it ruffles my feather… I mean I try not to - lol- and I remind myself that it’s the journey they are on. Big, small, right, wrong- we all are on one and the only thing you can really do is live as an example of what you truly believe. You're absolutely right, which is no surprise. I have to wonder if I have a masochistic streak when I click on threads that are obviously bashing pro dommes. I can't remember the exact term, but there's something like Skinner's law of intermittent reward that explains why people play slot machines, wear down their beaks on little levers and only occasionally get some seeds, or continue to argue with complete strangers whose minds are made up. After 11 years in my own community, full of people who had very set ideas about what a pro domme is and isn't, I've had so many conversations with people who've told me some variation of, "You know, I used to think X about pro dommes, but after getting to know you, I've had to completely rethink all that. I'm sorry, and thank you for your patience." It only happens a couple of times a year, but it feels so good, I keep up with the repetitive behavior that yields questionably adequate rewards. It also feels good to say "up yours" to a smug jerk now and then.

MystressDream -> RE: how many of the pros get called a prostitute? (12/27/2007 11:44:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsSaskia quote: ORIGINAL: DiannaVesta As you probably already know, you will always have to confront shit like this. You can’t justify or make good common sense to people who have no clue and shrouded with ignorance. Once they have this agenda wild horses won’t change their mind. Even if they say, “Oh yeah, that makes sense!” The reality is that they will never really understand. I have spent years and years making contributions to the community. Countless venues, articles, workshops, groups, free sites, way too many damn emails. There are the people that appreciate what you do, learn from it and then there are the people that want to pick it apart and find something evil. Its an aspect of human nature I hate but nonetheless part of our existence. I hate seeing such a beautiful and intelligent woman as yourself (and the other truly incredible Goddesses that SPEND their precious fucking time being here in the first place) waste your time to defend any of this. I understand why you do and I’ve also been up on that soap box. My profile clearly states that I charge a fee for training. Nope, not a pro domme but and experienced lifestyle mistress that accepts student for a journey. Call it what you will but that I my platform. So I give them my web site and after they actually READ that they have to PAY money to talk to me I get these nasty ass, ignorant replies about NOT being real, only in it for the money, blah blah. “But Goddess I am applying for a domestic servant to make YOUR world better. A full time 24/7 slave.” Yeah right! 95% (or higher) of the ALL people (yes even here with all the REAL lifestyle people) haven’t a clue what that really means. Sometimes I read these threads and shake my head. WTF? They honestly have no idea what goes into building a well balanced D/s relationship, ESPECIALLY one that integrates the lifestyle. So I am learning to do what I do in the state I live in now (Virginia) filled with hardcore conservative bible thumping prejudice beings… I smile, say “God Bless you too.” and I walk away. I don’t let it ruffles my feather… I mean I try not to - lol- and I remind myself that it’s the journey they are on. Big, small, right, wrong- we all are on one and the only thing you can really do is live as an example of what you truly believe. You're absolutely right, which is no surprise. I have to wonder if I have a masochistic streak when I click on threads that are obviously bashing pro dommes. I can't remember the exact term, but there's something like Skinner's law of intermittent reward that explains why people play slot machines, wear down their beaks on little levers and only occasionally get some seeds, or continue to argue with complete strangers whose minds are made up. After 11 years in my own community, full of people who had very set ideas about what a pro domme is and isn't, I've had so many conversations with people who've told me some variation of, "You know, I used to think X about pro dommes, but after getting to know you, I've had to completely rethink all that. I'm sorry, and thank you for your patience." It only happens a couple of times a year, but it feels so good, I keep up with the repetitive behavior that yields questionably adequate rewards. It also feels good to say "up yours" to a smug jerk now and then. MsSaskia gets those kinds of comments from people in our community because of the person she is. They see the quality, and the dedication to this community, and appreciate it. She is very knowledgable, and is willing to share her expertise by way of demos and presentations. She is appreciated and brings respect to what some very close minded people didn't believe was a respectful profession. It's why I send submissives her way when they appear to need the services of a pro rather than a relationship with a lifestyle Domme. Count me as one of the local people who respect her.... for what she does, and for who she is.

DiannaVesta -> RE: how many of the pros get called a prostitute? (12/27/2007 11:53:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsSaskia It also feels good to say "up yours" to a smug jerk now and then. lol- Yeah I understand that and have days I can't seem to control my mouth. You're special and that comes through each time.

ElaineSubmits -> RE: how many of the pros get called a prostitute? (12/27/2007 12:14:18 PM)
It's interesting that the customers for the "pro dominants" are almost entirely male, as with customers for "sex workers" of all sorts. And why is it that "pro subs" are so rare?

GoddessMine -> RE: how many of the pros get called a prostitute? (12/27/2007 12:33:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ElaineSubmits It's interesting that the customers for the "pro dominants" are almost entirely male, as with customers for "sex workers" of all sorts. And why is it that "pro subs" are so rare? Going on this token of generalizations, I've had about 10 requests from females slaves/subs on CollarMe inquiring about how they can start making a quick buck. You interested? Love, GM

MsSaskia -> RE: how many of the pros get called a prostitute? (12/27/2007 1:57:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ElaineSubmits It's interesting that the customers for the "pro dominants" are almost entirely male, as with customers for "sex workers" of all sorts. And why is it that "pro subs" are so rare? Perhaps it has escaped your notice that men earn more money than women and have more disposable income, and that it's easier for women to find dominant, no-strings-attached partners than it is for males. If you're clear on that and still aren't sure why things are the way they are, an introductory course in economics could help you get an understanding of supply and demand.

MsSaskia -> RE: how many of the pros get called a prostitute? (12/27/2007 1:59:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MystressDream MsSaskia gets those kinds of comments from people in our community because of the person she is. They see the quality, and the dedication to this community, and appreciate it. She is very knowledgable, and is willing to share her expertise by way of demos and presentations. She is appreciated and brings respect to what some very close minded people didn't believe was a respectful profession. It's why I send submissives her way when they appear to need the services of a pro rather than a relationship with a lifestyle Domme. Count me as one of the local people who respect her.... for what she does, and for who she is. I had to pick my jaw back up off the floor. Now it's all dusty. [;)] Thank you!

subguyca2000 -> RE: how many of the pros get called a prostitute? (12/27/2007 2:11:44 PM)
Like many others, I think it is silly to call a professional the equivalent of a prostitute. I consider them more of a therapist than anything. The worse session experience that I ever had was when the pro femdom wanted to force me to worship her breasts, and I safeworded out. Now, I know that there are plenty of people who consider a person torturing my nipples to be providing sexual pleasure, but I do not consider them a prostitute. Heck, my general practitioner makes me feel better so where do you draw the line.

ElaineSubmits -> RE: how many of the pros get called a prostitute? (12/27/2007 2:19:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsSaskia quote: ORIGINAL: ElaineSubmits It's interesting that the customers for the "pro dominants" are almost entirely male, as with customers for "sex workers" of all sorts. And why is it that "pro subs" are so rare? Perhaps it has escaped your notice that men earn more money than women and have more disposable income, and that it's easier for women to find dominant, no-strings-attached partners than it is for males. If you're clear on that and still aren't sure why things are the way they are, an introductory course in economics could help you get an understanding of supply and demand. That's a classic example of "the fallacy of composition." Obviously, women in general have less disposable income than men in general, but there are a significant number of affluent women. I don't think it's a matter of economics. I don't wish to get into male-bashing, but I think it is generally accepted that men have a greater willingness or ability to separate sex from intimacy than women have. The proportion of women seeking "no strings attached partners" in CM adverts is also much lower than the proportion of men. I don't see any obvious reasons though why there are so few submissives-for-hire. I have heard it suggested that it's because many ordinary prostitutes are willing to offer that service, but I've not seen any evidence cited.

MsCfromMelbourne -> RE: how many of the pros get called a prostitute? (12/27/2007 2:23:26 PM)
Elaine, I emailed you privately.

subfever -> RE: how many of the pros get called a prostitute? (12/27/2007 2:26:11 PM)
Aww... and here I came back here specifically to read your post... [:(]

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