RE: CastleRealm2: Ancient Houses of Training (Full Version)

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LuckyAlbatross -> RE: CastleRealm2: Ancient Houses of Training (12/23/2007 6:45:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
although I was assured by the dominant I was seeing it was not, and that I pleased him because of my intellect and conversational abilities... and not everyone wanted a "slave trained in formal protocol".

There were a lot of newbies that never had a dominant that told them that though.


I would say:

a) I think that makes CR a better reference, because it causes people to question and challenge ideas put before them, to make them realize there IS this set of ideas out there and they can use it or lose it as they desire

b) I'm not what to say to the suggestion that we need doms to tell novices not to believe everything they read online as fact and what that has to do with CR?




juliaoceania -> RE: CastleRealm2: Ancient Houses of Training (12/23/2007 6:48:02 PM)

Not every novice has a dom/protector/mentor collar.... as defined by CR.... to guide them on what they should or should not believe (now I am only being half facetious....smiles)

Edited to add, I think CM is much more educational because the ideas are debated real time and the archived... people see many sides that way. It is much more educational because of this




awmslave -> RE: CastleRealm2: Ancient Houses of Training (12/23/2007 6:48:43 PM)

I would guess the "ancient houses" are  fictional like the planet Gor. There are several houses advertising in this site that practice poly dom/sub lifestyle and that are looking for members to join. For example check out the profile  "TheGorenSociety".




MadRabbit -> RE: CastleRealm2: Ancient Houses of Training (12/23/2007 6:53:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

Again, I'm not getting into the merits or lack thereof of CR.  It is conceivable that there are groups have some history and that groups exist that don't hold themselves out to the public and don't invite just anyone to join.  Hell who hasn't thought at times there has to be a way to be involved without dealing with all the trolls and garbage?   I'm really kind of doubting the 2000 years thing however.


Is it possible that Ancient BDSM Houses existed?

Sure, its possible. I can only provide first hand knowledge of my own little world here in South Carolina and nothing beyond that.

Given that, it's also possible that a unicorn is roaming around in Europe, a moon made of cheese exists in another galaxy, and there is a duplicate in myself in an alternative universe with a less sardonic and sarcastic posting style. I can't prove a negative to any of these so logically, they are all possible.

However, the question is whether it is plausible or not. Here is the facts I have to consider...

1) Quite a few people far more experienced and knowledgeable than me consider this idea to be nothing more than myth.
2) Sources like Myth Busters that have a degree of credit to their writings from the sources they provide to support them conclude that it is false
3) I personally have yet to find any research that supports or shows evidence of the existence of these Houses
4) Jade, in this article and the articles connected to it, provides absolutely zero in terms of research or sources to support her claims to "facts". Nothing. Nadda. Zip. Zero. There is no listings of second opinions or data that I can go to check up on her history report.

Given this and using Acumen's Razor (or however you spell it), the best conclusion is that her writing is nothing more than a fictitious creation masquerading as a creditable documentary on the existence of Ancient Houses.

Edited to Add : And as SimplyMichael (CrappyDom) pointed out, while no one can provide any information or evidence of their existance or origin, somehow their accomplishments and contributions to modern BDSM are well known to writers like Jade.




undinerising -> RE: CastleRealm2: Ancient Houses of Training (12/23/2007 6:54:20 PM)

I have to agree with posters above- this sounds like myth-creation as a response to a desire for a feeling of legitimacy. It's not really strange at all to want to feel like there's history to what you're doing- especially if it's something as frowned-upon and marginalized as BDSM. I'm not just taking it with a grain of salt, though. I'm shelving the whole notion of 'secret ancient Houses' under Fiction.

And this from a slightly paranoid, kooky woman who's seen waaay too much of The X-Files.




laurell3 -> RE: CastleRealm2: Ancient Houses of Training (12/23/2007 6:56:05 PM)

I didn't actually say they do exist MR, in fact quite the contrary.  I'm sure there are private groups out there.  That doesn't mean I support the idea of "Ancient" houses.




MadRabbit -> RE: CastleRealm2: Ancient Houses of Training (12/23/2007 6:58:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

I didn't actually say they do exist MR, in fact quite the contrary.  I'm sure there are private groups out there.  That doesn't mean I support the idea of "Ancient" houses.


Of course, not. You said it was conceivable and I agree. It is conceivable and possible. Just not even close to plausible at all.




KatyLied -> RE: CastleRealm2: Ancient Houses of Training (12/23/2007 6:59:45 PM)

We should make up our own ancient house and give it some fake credibility.




catize -> RE: CastleRealm2: Ancient Houses of Training (12/23/2007 7:00:26 PM)

Does the fact whether these houses exist or not have any relevance? 
It appears that if you are a member you are not allowed to speak of it, and if you do talk of it you are lying.  
Makes my head hurt!




MadRabbit -> RE: CastleRealm2: Ancient Houses of Training (12/23/2007 7:01:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

We should make up our own ancient house and give it some fake credibility.


MasterLDeSade (or however you spell that dudes name) beat you to it.




marsneedswomen -> RE: CastleRealm2: Ancient Houses of Training (12/23/2007 7:02:14 PM)

Some of these European houses might have existed before World War I, but that would be when there was an aristocracy to actually maintain such a house based upon traditions and the such. After World War I, forget the whole lineage because those not killed found their societies replaced by modern governments and industrialization. If World War I didn't finish them off, then the World War II most assuredly did.

Here in the U.S., it is possible that some religous versions of something like this might have existed, but I doubt that they could exist for very long because mobility. It is possible for one or two generations, but once industrialization hit, the world would have caught up with them just like Europe. This does not mean clubs and houses don't exist, its just this great tradition idea is a bunch of bunk. There are a few bdsm societies, but they are hardly secret, like the Euspengial Society that has been around for some time. In short, if there were such houses and orders, the beans would have been spilled or some kind of written history would have turned up by now. Before you say it could be an oral history, I say fine just show me two that have dates and orders that match and back it up with historical records such as deeds, census, taxes and I will be happy to accept it. Still, fantasy wise it is a good one. :)




laurell3 -> RE: CastleRealm2: Ancient Houses of Training (12/23/2007 7:03:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

I didn't actually say they do exist MR, in fact quite the contrary.  I'm sure there are private groups out there.  That doesn't mean I support the idea of "Ancient" houses.


Of course, not. You said it was conceivable and I agree. It is conceivable and possible. Just not even close to plausible at all.


Well no, I said it's conceivable there are private groups with some history.




MadRabbit -> RE: CastleRealm2: Ancient Houses of Training (12/23/2007 7:03:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

Does the fact whether these houses exist or not have any relevance? 
It appears that if you are a member you are not allowed to speak of it, and if you do talk of it you are lying.  
Makes my head hurt!


I would say that if you were willing to disclose as much information as Jade has about the Houses, then providing something to substantiate it won't hurt (Unless her intentions weren't to inform everyone about the truth of the existance of these Houses, but to be a laughing stock on Internet boards)




MadRabbit -> RE: CastleRealm2: Ancient Houses of Training (12/23/2007 7:06:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

I didn't actually say they do exist MR, in fact quite the contrary.  I'm sure there are private groups out there.  That doesn't mean I support the idea of "Ancient" houses.


Of course, not. You said it was conceivable and I agree. It is conceivable and possible. Just not even close to plausible at all.


Well no, I said it's conceivable there are private groups with some history.


Your right. Sorry, I am tired.

But...hey...thanks for serving as a jumping off point for my next little rant [:D]




laurell3 -> RE: CastleRealm2: Ancient Houses of Training (12/23/2007 7:07:15 PM)

heh my pleasure [8D]




Zaraseeks -> RE: CastleRealm2: Ancient Houses of Training (12/23/2007 7:30:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

We should make up our own ancient house and give it some fake credibility.

I agree!!!   Lets do it!! 




Zaraseeks -> RE: CastleRealm2: Ancient Houses of Training (12/23/2007 7:32:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I remember when I first read Castle Realm how Jade had an essay about how she was trained in a "family"... she was trained before she ever submitted to anyone supposedly.... does anyone else remember that essay?

I do remember that one, I was 16 when I read it and in fact still have the print out of it...really was rather vague though, as she tends to be




MasterGarghoul -> RE: CastleRealm2: Ancient Houses of Training (12/23/2007 7:57:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

We should make up our own ancient house and give it some fake credibility.


I'll go sit on the roof. Nothing gives an ancient house credibility like a gargoyle perched on top of it.





BitaTruble -> RE: CastleRealm2: Ancient Houses of Training (12/23/2007 8:13:08 PM)

This particular essay, in my opinion, was the beginning of the end for CR. It was really, with this FAQ, that people began to question the information which was being provided as 'educational' and 'factual'. When anyone is purporting to provide facts, those facts need to be substantiated with credible sources, whether that be books, scientific data, multiple eye-witness accounts or some other verifiable factor. Some hard questions started to be asked  .. questions which were never answered and since jades death was announced shortly after the writing of this essay, questions which will remain unanswered.

From where did this information come? How was the author able to, so emphatically, state the information was factual? Where is the documentation of which she speaks and how was the author able to access what no one else could?

The author made a statement that every "Tom, Dick and Harry" jumped on the 'house' bandwagon and that 'most' of them were charlatons, but as the ancient houses were secret, how was the author able to determine who was a charlaton and who had a legitimate claim? Well, by her own words, those who 'were' of the old families were not about to proclaim them to the world .. and here she is, proclaiming them to the world. I find such very telling.

One of the other things I find telling about such ancient history, is found within the very body of the work which the author presented. Information is passed down from father to son, membership is screened and you just can't 'get in' to this inner sanctum. What though of all the slaves who would have been trained in these houses? How were these slaves found 100, 200, 500, 1500 years ago? Did folks back then not question the disapperance of their sisters, daughters and cousins? Did they not wonder where their loved ones had gone? Were there bills of sale, receipts for services rendered? What about things such as clothing, food, medical expenses? Would there not have been some sort of doctors reports for things like accidents, pregnancies and death? As little as 500 years ago, according to the FAQ, these houses were not illegal or criminal, so why all the secrets? Who was being protected back then?

"According to the Berlin Papyrus No. 154, an ancient report reads as follows:

The patient suffers a great epigastric pain. He feels a heavy, hot and inflamed body. He complains of being unable to tolerate his clothes and feels they do not warm him. He feels thirsty during the night. His saliva has the taste of unripe fruits. His muscles pain him as if he walked for a long distance."

http://www.touregypt.net/historicalessays/doctors.htm

We, clearly, have evidence that doctors kept records as far back as Ancient Egypt. If these ancient houses of BDSM only passed information from father to son, did they call in doctors at all? It seems to me that the great store set to integrity, tradition and keeping your slaves welfare in the front of the mind, such would have, of course, allowed medical personnel to take care of these slaves so why is it that there is zero account of these sorts of activities?

Who provided the fruits, dairy products, meats etc to these houses? Were they self-sustaining so that all food products were grown or raised for the house? What about incomes for these houses? Keeping other humans isn't exactly free. Were there training fees? Dowery's? Dues? Tuition? Who paid the expenses of the slaves? Why is there not one shred of independent verifiable documentation in support?

So many questions, no answers. With Jade's death, Colm distanced himself from any knowledge of these ancient houses claiming it was only via the association with jade that he had any information of them at all.

Perhaps I'm a cynic, but I find that quite convenient. I tell my own Master everything and if I had verifible knowledge of such a huge scope of BDSM history, damn, it would probably make me famous! Who needs the internet when I could probably get my own segment on HBO's Real Sex Live or something?

My .02 cents on this exerpt.

Celeste




laurell3 -> RE: CastleRealm2: Ancient Houses of Training (12/23/2007 8:13:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterGarghoul

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

We should make up our own ancient house and give it some fake credibility.


I'll go sit on the roof. Nothing gives an ancient house credibility like a gargoyle perched on top of it.




ROFL




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