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On Clingy Submissives - 12/27/2007 5:33:10 PM   
KindLadyGrey


Posts: 358
Joined: 11/6/2007
Status: offline 		A recent post on the "Ask a Sub" forum got me thinking about this. A sub was asking what to do when her master stopped paying attention to her. Many of the responses were along the lines of "do what he asks like a good sub and give him some space" or "be an adult and focus on your own life for a while" And almost ALL the replies so far have either implicitly or tacitly cautioned the poster not to be CLINGY.

Am I the only one who thinks this is terribly unfair? As a Domme, I often explicitly foster some kind of emotional dependence in my submissives. This doesn't mean I want to strip them of their individualism or ability to cope with life on their own, but part of the submissive experience in a serious relationship is surrendering completely to another person and trusting that they will take care of you to the best of their ability. Nobody is perfect, and everybody makes mistakes, but a Dominant has a responsibility to their sub(s). I think it's terrible when I hear stories about a Dominant who suddenly starts ignoring a sub without giving a reason*, and I likewise feel that it is a very natural reaction for a sub to feel a lot of anxiety when this happens.

I think of all the stories I've read on these forums about the difficulties subs/slaves have when they are released after having been trained for orgasm control or chastity. Their very sexuality is attached to a specific Dominant, and when that Dominant is gone from their lives it is incredibly difficult to pick up the pieces on their own.

*I realize there are some very needy subs out there who can tax a Dominant's resources from the get go and therefore require some very strict boundaries. I also realize that some Dominants use withdrawal of their presence as a punishment, which I personally think is cruel but would certainly be effective! In any case, in those scenario's the Dominant gives a reason ("You are being punished") so that's not what I'm addressing here either. I'm talking about otherwise mentally healthy people who have surrendered to emotional dependence on a Dominant whom they trust only to find that relationship inexplicably cut off.

So I throw this question out to the forums: Is it such a terrible thing to be a clingy submissive when the very nature of submission encourages emotional dependence?

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/27/2007 5:47:19 PM   
tegantwo


Posts: 5
Joined: 12/8/2007
Status: offline 		I think this is a very interesting topic. I have questioned myself lately on this very thing. I do feel very dependent on my Dom and I have noticed that building over the course of the last several months. There was a time when i was pretty independent in all areas of my life. It is a bit intimidating to notice these changes in my personality...and yet I think it brings us closer in many ways.

I will be interested to hear the responses here.........

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/27/2007 5:47:48 PM   
wisteriaV


Posts: 438
Joined: 3/17/2005
Status: offline 		I dont think that submission encourages emotional dependance at all. I choose how I feel and react to my environment. I love Master but his actions dont dictate what or how I will respond. If he says or does something I dont like I can not like it even when he makes a choice about stuff. I am not clingy at all and Master likes my emotional as well as intellectual dependance of him. He likes it when we join together emotionally and intellectual as well.

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/27/2007 5:49:44 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		I think it's unfair to switch the rules in the middle. If he wanted her dependent from the beginning, then he doesn't get to say she's too clingy when he's the one with the problems. He obviously found her needs compatible to start with, or he wouldn't have been with her then. And if they weren't compatible, he shouldn't have started just to get laid.

The Man likes me clingy, he finds that dealing with my needs is relaxing for him when overwhelmed with stresses of his own. I don't understand how that works, but he's told me it enough and I've seen it.

Being able to switch gears and help a poor, helpless female who bats her eyes and coos at him in gratitude gives him an energy rush. Okay, I'm not that bad but a touch of that is stress relieving for him. Plus he would always rather I get clingy and tell him when I'm needy than try to handle everything and have an anxiety attack when I can't.

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/27/2007 5:50:20 PM   
kitttty


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Status: offline 		What exactly do Doms think when they do this?

Why would you ignore someone that you are fond of when you know it causes them agony?



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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/27/2007 5:50:23 PM   
Rover


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KindLadyGrey

So I throw this question out to the forums: Is it such a terrible thing to be a clingy submissive when the very nature of submission encourages emotional dependence?


I don't at all buy into the notion that emotional dependence is the very nature of submission... not a bit.  But I do believe that the vast majority of Dominants purposely engender an emotional dependence, and that for the most part they derive some level of gratfication from it.  Except when they don't, and then they want their slave/submissive to behave accordingly.
 
This is another example where submission may not necessarily be easy, or emotionally gratifying or fulfilling.  No one said it would be, and in the example used it's not likely that the Dominant is asking for it to be satisfying or enjoyable... just that there be behavioral compliance (ie: you don't have to like it, just obey).
 
Having said that (and read the OP more carefully), if the relationship itself becomes unsatisfying and unenjoyable (rather than the task of the moment), then anyone would understandably reconsider their continued participation.

John

< Message edited by Rover -- 12/27/2007 5:53:50 PM >

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/27/2007 5:56:01 PM   
KyttynTheMynx


Posts: 4880
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From: Moosecrotch, Va
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kitttty

What exactly do Doms think when they do this?

Why would you ignore someone that you are fond of when you know it causes them agony?





I cant say what Doms are thinking, but I am gonna take a stretch on a limb and say that maybe ignoring someone you are fond of is a punishment tactic to get the sub to straighten up, and fly right?  If one is being punished, it is expected that you would feel {insert negative feeling}.


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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/27/2007 5:56:07 PM   
fairerthanshe


Posts: 3035
Joined: 1/18/2007
Status: offline 		Greetings,

Thanks for posting such an interesting question. 

Yes, subs do become emotionally dependent upon their Doms.  Sometimes those Doms without meaning to do so, withdraw a certain aspect of their normal presence and this throws the sub into complete discord.   I had been seeing this Dom for about 2 months and each morning when I awoke, there would be an instructional email with instructions for what I needed to do that day.  One morning it wasn't there.  By ten a.m., I was frantic and sent him a text begging for permission to call.  He called me and I was immediately begging forgiveness for whatever I had done.  He had simply forgotten to send the email that morning.  It was inadvertent, but it was hell for me that morning. 

It seems that a natural condition of D/s relationships from the sub side, is to show how much you need your Dom and yet never appear needy while doing so.  Neediness and clinginess are habits that have always been frowned upon by the Doms I have been with.

That being said, SJ wants to know my thoughts, feelings, dreams so that he can guide me accordingly.  His dominance of me includes transformation aspects and he expects that I will need him when I am emotionally vulnerable.  While I maintain the rules and rituals he has put in place, even when I am upset, it is because I know the opportunity for me to tell him about my day or what has me upset will be afforded me.  On those rare days when we have no contact beyond an email, I rest assured knowing that the next time we speak, if I have anything I need to discuss, he will listen and lend his guidance where its needed.

well wishes ~ fairer than she


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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/27/2007 5:58:37 PM   
PanthersMom


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From: Cleveland Ohio
Status: offline 		clingy has its benefits and drawbacks.  too clingy and it is suffocating, not clingy enough and a person seems stand-offish.  like everything else in life, moderation is the key.  find what is comfortable for both parties through trial and error.  half the fun in life is the exploration of all its wonders.

PM

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/27/2007 6:04:40 PM   
kitttty


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Joined: 10/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Neediness and clinginess are habits that have always been frowned upon by the Doms I have been with.



I am very clingy and very needy.

Poor Master. Why he wants me, I never understand.

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/27/2007 6:10:50 PM   
RumpusParable


Posts: 1923
Joined: 7/7/2005
From: NYC now!
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KindLadyGrey

Is it such a terrible thing to be a clingy submissive when the very nature of submission encourages emotional dependence?



I, as with some others here, have to disagree with the premise that "the very nature of submission" is in any way inherently linked to emotional dependence or that it's desirable at all in a sub.  I want no one to be emotionally dependent on me and I do not try to foster that in a sub of mine. 

Emotional dependence and emotional attachment are two extremely different things.  I only want the latter.

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/27/2007 6:11:12 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kitttty


I am very clingy and very needy.

Poor Master. Why he wants me, I never understand.


Because he feels so much more competent when he compares himself to you. It's a sign of his insecurities, like men who only date dumb blondes because they know they would be shown up as ignorant if they dated a smart female.

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/27/2007 6:24:17 PM   
kitttty


Posts: 494
Joined: 10/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:


Because he feels so much more competent when he compares himself to you. It's a sign of his insecurities, like men who only date dumb blondes because they know they would be shown up as ignorant if they dated a smart female.


What crawled up your bunghole? itching powder?

...you know, usually that kind of comment implies a bad thing, but on this site, you never know- maybe someone wants that kind of thing.


Not me though. A craving for preparation H is about as non erotic as things get.


I dont know what Master thinks of my relative lack of competence. He doesnt seem that keen on it.

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/27/2007 6:26:21 PM   
Noah


Posts: 1660
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

I don't at all buy into the notion that emotional dependence is the very nature of submission... not a bit.  But I do believe that the vast majority of Dominants purposely engender an emotional dependence, and that for the most part they derive some level of gratfication from it.  Except when they don't, and then they want their slave/submissive to behave accordingly.
 
This is another example where submission may not necessarily be easy, or emotionally gratifying or fulfilling.  No one said it would be, and in the example used it's not likely that the Dominant is asking for it to be satisfying or enjoyable... just that there be behavioral compliance (ie: you don't have to like it, just obey).
 
Having said that (and read the OP more carefully), if the relationship itself becomes unsatisfying and unenjoyable (rather than the task of the moment), then anyone would understandably reconsider their continued participation.

John


I stand with Rover here almost point-for point. The exception is in regard to his impression about the vast majority of dominants. I don't have enough information to speak one way another about the vast majority of dominants to form that kind of impression.

The original poster said: "... but part of the submissive experience in a serious relationship is surrendering completely to another person and trusting that they will take care of you to the best of their ability."

This may be a common view. It may even be the predominant view for all I know. I don't have any reliable information about the vast majority of submissives, either. Plenty of exceptions exist, though. In my experience there have been submissives who wanted to experience a tremendous degree of surrender (I can't imagine what "complete" would mean here if one ever tried to seriously define it) without wanting to be taken care of to the best of their partner's ability.

For some people, the notion that they are surrendering without that sort of net is key to the experience they seek. The whole "treasured pet/toy/(whatever) dynamic would ruin the experience if it ever reared it's tender, caring head.

If someone wants to post about the relationships which do happen to involve and even require the kind of caring the original poster refers to, that's fine. On the other hand, to state categorically that this kind of caring is a marker of all serious d/s relationships overlooks far too much. In addition it seems to smack of holding in low esteem any relationship which lacked this marker (as if it couldn't be "serious")

A thing which puzzles me is how anyone (including another respondent above) could ask how a dominant could ever do anything to a submissive which would cause the submissive agony. Of course Sadomasochism plays a large role in many d/s relationships, and the agony engendered in the masochist needn't be limited to the physical.

As to whether the dominant partner in the subject couple was intentionally (consensually or otherwise) engaging in emotional sadism in the incidemt described, once again I don't have enough information to form a credible impression.

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/27/2007 6:28:56 PM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		I never had children for a reason, I value my independence too much. I'm really not that into the d/s thing. I think it fosters way too much of a parent child dynamic. If I wanted someone who was into being in my face all the time-I'd get a dog.

< Message edited by Leatherist -- 12/27/2007 6:30:26 PM >

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/27/2007 6:36:51 PM   
NaiveTempest


Posts: 345
Joined: 11/20/2006
From: North Carolina
Status: offline 		I would be torn if a person did this to me as punishment. It would be too effective because I tend to be very emotional. But, on the other side of the effect coin, I'll never forget it. And if he did it too much, he'll end up with one pissed off sub who might be willing to engage in a crime of passion, lol. 

While I maybe emotional, I don't like being emotionally dependant. Leaves one to vulnerable. I don't like being dependant on any level, really.

< Message edited by NaiveTempest -- 12/27/2007 6:40:19 PM >

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/27/2007 6:39:12 PM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KindLadyGrey
Is it such a terrible thing to be a clingy submissive when the very nature of submission encourages emotional dependence?


I don't agree that the very nature of submission is emotional dependence. In fact, I think that any relationship that encourages emotional dependence is unhealthy, lifestyle or not. So, in my opinion, yes, this is a terrible thing.

Master Fire


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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/27/2007 7:03:49 PM   
laurell3


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Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

quote:

ORIGINAL: KindLadyGrey
Is it such a terrible thing to be a clingy submissive when the very nature of submission encourages emotional dependence?


I don't agree that the very nature of submission is emotional dependence. In fact, I think that any relationship that encourages emotional dependence is unhealthy, lifestyle or not. So, in my opinion, yes, this is a terrible thing.

Master Fire



Agreed.  Regardless of the intensity of the relationship and play, I do not believe that emotional dependence is necessary or even desired and I think one has to be very careful never to lose themselves.  If someone choses to blow me off, well....I guess they'll soon find out how independent I can be because I don't find it acceptable.

However, I believe there's a big difference between saying I need more of your time and being "clingy".  There's also a big difference between going through a stressful, busy or hard time in one's life and blowing someone off.  Knowing where the line is, well that's always the question isn't it?

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/27/2007 7:08:07 PM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		If someone implodes emotionally because thier partner needs a few days to themselves once in a while....it's thier problem-not the other person's.

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RE: On Clingy Submissives - 12/27/2007 7:09:01 PM   
Hergirl0824


Posts: 119
Joined: 10/2/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KindLadyGrey

Is it such a terrible thing to be a clingy submissive when the very nature of submission encourages emotional dependence?




interesting question as my Mistress and i were just discussing this today...our relationship is centered around emotional dependance to a certain degree but it comes from both sides of the slash, so to speak....we have bonded very closely and She has no problem expressing Her emotional need for me...i ,for one, am very emotionally dependant on Her...while She is not my entire life and i do have other outlets for my emotional needs, our relationship is one that is centered on our close friendship first and my emotional bond with Her stregthens not only our relationship but Her power over me....am i a clingy sub?  You bet i am! She knew this from the beginning and enjoys this aspect of my personality very much


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