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RE: The other side of the Rape Fantasy - 1/9/2008 4:52:05 PM   
tigerstyle


Posts: 168
Joined: 5/25/2005
Status: offline 		But I didn't answer the question. Yes, I fantasize about rape all the time, real "stranger" rape. In fantasy, "she" doesn't enjoy it. I'm often dismayed at how close to the surface in me is that side which would get pleasure from such an act. So I make do with "rape play"...considerably better than nothing and, of course, the only option open to a man with a rape brain who also believes in the Golden Rule.

(in reply to slavegirljoy)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: The other side of the Rape Fantasy - 1/9/2008 4:55:50 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tigerstyle

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

  Of course, it's well-known that rape isn't 'about sex'

This piece of dogma never made any sense to me. The idea that rape could be "about power, not sex" is only coherent if sex and power are somehow separate. Which, as BDSMers, we know not to be the case.



Huh?

Of course they can be seperate. There are very valid power exchanges without any sex at all. Personally I do think rape is entirely about power, not sex. Otherwise, they'd just go to a bar and get laid - some rapists are very attractive men who don't need to rape girls to get laid! Hell one of the ways rapists have been caught is because when the police mentioned a certain type of knot used to bind the victim, the rapist's consenting sexual partner realized it was the same used on them.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 1/9/2008 4:56:15 PM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to tigerstyle)
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RE: The other side of the Rape Fantasy - 1/9/2008 5:04:41 PM   
mistoferin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tigerstyle

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

  Of course, it's well-known that rape isn't 'about sex'

This piece of dogma never made any sense to me. The idea that rape could be "about power, not sex" is only coherent if sex and power are somehow separate. Which, as BDSMers, we know not to be the case.



If rape is about sex then please tell me why 2 year olds and 95 year olds get raped.

_____________________________

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RE: The other side of the Rape Fantasy - 1/9/2008 5:05:39 PM   
tigerstyle


Posts: 168
Joined: 5/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: tigerstyle

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

  Of course, it's well-known that rape isn't 'about sex'

This piece of dogma never made any sense to me. The idea that rape could be "about power, not sex" is only coherent if sex and power are somehow separate. Which, as BDSMers, we know not to be the case.



Huh?

Of course they can be seperate. There are very valid power exchanges without any sex at all. Personally I do think rape is entirely about power, not sex. Otherwise, they'd just go to a bar and get laid - some rapists are very attractive men who don't need to rape girls to get laid! Hell one of the ways rapists have been caught is because when the police mentioned a certain type of knot used to bind the victim, the rapist's consenting sexual partner realized it was the same used on them.

That's interesting--the rapist had not only a consenting partner, but they were obviously involved in some kind of kinky tie-up games, in other words, in power play. This would seem to be evidence to me that the rapist liked power imbalance in his sex--and his raping was just a case of that carried to extremes.

The fact that there can be power exchanges that don't involve sex doesn't have any bearing on the fact that, for some people, it is a sexual act to assert power over someone by rape.

"Rape must be about power, not sex, because some rapists are attractive and would have no problem getting sex the normal way". This leaves out something which should be rather obvious to BDSM types....maybe the rapist gets off on rape, not licit sex.

As I understand it, the power/sex thing comes from the attempt of feminism to overcome a traditional rape defense: "He had no control over his burning lust". While there's no excuse for such a crime, the idea that rapists are not getting off on their acts sexually is too much to swallow.

(in reply to AquaticSub)
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RE: The other side of the Rape Fantasy - 1/9/2008 5:08:29 PM   
tigerstyle


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Joined: 5/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: tigerstyle

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

  Of course, it's well-known that rape isn't 'about sex'

This piece of dogma never made any sense to me. The idea that rape could be "about power, not sex" is only coherent if sex and power are somehow separate. Which, as BDSMers, we know not to be the case.



If rape is about sex then please tell me why 2 year olds and 95 year olds get raped.


I can think of several logical possibilities. One, the rapist was sexually turned on by the very old or the very young. Not common, but also not impossible. Or two, the rapist was not sexually turned on by the very old or very young and raped for some other reason..."power",. maybe. If all rape victims were 2 or 95,. then I'd wonder. They aren't, of course.

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: The other side of the Rape Fantasy - 1/9/2008 5:10:50 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Can't we resolve this dispute by agreeing that rape is about BOTH power and sex?  It's not SOLELY about one or the other.

Seems obvious to me.

(in reply to tigerstyle)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: The other side of the Rape Fantasy - 1/9/2008 5:12:36 PM   
tigerstyle


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Joined: 5/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Can't we resolve this dispute by agreeing that rape is about BOTH power and sex?  It's not SOLELY about one or the other.

Seems obvious to me.

That's basically my point.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: The other side of the Rape Fantasy - 1/9/2008 5:13:17 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tigerstyle

"Rape must be about power, not sex, because some rapists are attractive and would have no problem getting sex the normal way". This leaves out something which should be rather obvious to BDSM types....maybe the rapist gets off on rape, not licit sex.

As I understand it, the power/sex thing comes from the attempt of feminism to overcome a traditional rape defense: "He had no control over his burning lust". While there's no excuse for such a crime, the idea that rapists are not getting off on their acts sexually is too much to swallow.



Yes, they are getting of on the raping. They are getting off on taking the power away from someone else. But it isn't about the sex, it's about the power. It's not about them getting off, it's about the power. If it was about the getting off, there are many other options.

And yes, for some people sex and power are not seperate but you didn't allow for that difference in your first post, only saying that as BDSMers we know they are not seperate.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 1/9/2008 5:15:12 PM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to tigerstyle)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: The other side of the Rape Fantasy - 1/9/2008 5:14:34 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tigerstyle

I can think of several logical possibilities. One, the rapist was sexually turned on by the very old or the very young. Not common, but also not impossible. Or two, the rapist was not sexually turned on by the very old or very young and raped for some other reason..."power",. maybe. If all rape victims were 2 or 95,. then I'd wonder. They aren't, of course.



No but a lot of them are too young or "unattractive". Too many fall into that group for me to believe it's all about the sex.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to tigerstyle)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: The other side of the Rape Fantasy - 1/9/2008 5:17:24 PM   
Aileen1968


Posts: 6062
Joined: 12/12/2007
From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
Status: offline 		It would seem to me that only a rapist knows his motivation.  It's also pretty logical to think that that motivation is different for each and every rapist.  It would be a culmination of his life experiences.  I'm sure some are driven by power, some by sex, and some by both.  Does it really matter...same end result.

_____________________________



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RE: The other side of the Rape Fantasy - 1/9/2008 5:19:15 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline 		It matters only in that "If we could figure it out maybe we could prevent it" way. Highly unlikely to happen on a message board though.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to Aileen1968)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: The other side of the Rape Fantasy - 1/9/2008 5:19:23 PM   
slavegirljoy


Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline 		From the American Journal of Psychiatry:
Rape: power, anger, and sexuality
AN Groth, W Burgess and LL Holmstrom

Accounts from both offenders and victims of what occurs during a rape suggest that issues of power, anger, and sexuality are important in understanding the rapist's behavior. All three issues seem to operate in every rape, but the proportion varies and one issue seems to dominate in each instance. The authors ranked accounts from 133 offenders and 92 victims for the dominant issue and found that the offenses could be categorized as power rape (sexuality used primarily to express power) or anger rape (use of sexuality to express anger). There were no rapes in which sex was the dominant issue; sexuality was always in the service of other, nonsexual needs.
 
Am J Psychiatry 1977; 134:1239-1243
Copyright © 1977 by American Psychiatric Association
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/134/11/1239

slave joy
Owned property of Master David

(in reply to tigerstyle)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: The other side of the Rape Fantasy - 1/9/2008 5:22:34 PM   
BlackKnight


Posts: 767
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Alright rape is about power, but they can't get aroused unless they take that power, and they wan't to get off, or it make getting off that much better.


_____________________________

'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.'
Life of Reason, Reason in Common Sense, Scribner's, 1905, page 284"
George Santayana

Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get me!

(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: The other side of the Rape Fantasy - 1/9/2008 5:22:58 PM   
tigerstyle


Posts: 168
Joined: 5/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: tigerstyle

"Rape must be about power, not sex, because some rapists are attractive and would have no problem getting sex the normal way". This leaves out something which should be rather obvious to BDSM types....maybe the rapist gets off on rape, not licit sex.

As I understand it, the power/sex thing comes from the attempt of feminism to overcome a traditional rape defense: "He had no control over his burning lust". While there's no excuse for such a crime, the idea that rapists are not getting off on their acts sexually is too much to swallow.



Yes, they are getting of on the raping. They are getting off on taking the power away from someone else. But it isn't about the sex, it's about the power. It's not about them getting off, it's about the power. If it was about the getting off, there are many other options.

And yes, for some people sex and power are not seperate but you didn't allow for that difference in your first post, only saying that as BDSMers we know they are not seperate.

What I should have said, then, is "as BDSMers, we know that they are not _necessarily_ separate".

I still dispute your first point. Let me put it in BDSM terms. What if Joe Rapo's "kink" happens to be....not rape play, not furry floggers....but actual rape. What if he "gets off" on taking power away from people, sexually.

I guess some people would just want to deny that we are talking about "sex" in such a case.


(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: The other side of the Rape Fantasy - 1/9/2008 5:25:20 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		That article is more than thirty years old, and it advanced precisely the mainstream viewpoint that some of us here don't accept.  (In fact, it was largely responsible for ESTABLISHING that viewpoint.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

From the American Journal of Psychiatry:
Rape: power, anger, and sexuality
AN Groth, W Burgess and LL Holmstrom

Accounts from both offenders and victims of what occurs during a rape suggest that issues of power, anger, and sexuality are important in understanding the rapist's behavior. All three issues seem to operate in every rape, but the proportion varies and one issue seems to dominate in each instance. The authors ranked accounts from 133 offenders and 92 victims for the dominant issue and found that the offenses could be categorized as power rape (sexuality used primarily to express power) or anger rape (use of sexuality to express anger). There were no rapes in which sex was the dominant issue; sexuality was always in the service of other, nonsexual needs.
 
Am J Psychiatry 1977; 134:1239-1243
Copyright © 1977 by American Psychiatric Association
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/134/11/1239

slave joy
Owned property of Master David

(in reply to slavegirljoy)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: The other side of the Rape Fantasy - 1/9/2008 5:26:43 PM   
tigerstyle


Posts: 168
Joined: 5/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

It would seem to me that only a rapist knows his motivation.  It's also pretty logical to think that that motivation is different for each and every rapist.  It would be a culmination of his life experiences.  I'm sure some are driven by power, some by sex, and some by both.  Does it really matter...same end result.


No doubt. I just resist the flat dogmatic assertion that power and sex are separate. This is always a hot button topic in BDSM circles, because none of us want to be seen as advocating rape and yet we tend to be a little more sensitive to the sexual nature of power than the normals.

(in reply to Aileen1968)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: The other side of the Rape Fantasy - 1/9/2008 5:27:31 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tigerstyle
I still dispute your first point. Let me put it in BDSM terms. What if Joe Rapo's "kink" happens to be....not rape play, not furry floggers....but actual rape. What if he "gets off" on taking power away from people, sexually.

I guess some people would just want to deny that we are talking about "sex" in such a case.



Then his primary goal is about power, not sex.

And I disagree with you on another point, it's not sex - it's rape. It is still intercourse but it's a completely different thing.

Edited for typo and better word choice.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 1/9/2008 5:28:54 PM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to tigerstyle)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: The other side of the Rape Fantasy - 1/9/2008 5:28:10 PM   
DominaSmartass


Posts: 961
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: This month? Maryland
Status: offline
I definitely fantasize about raping, but not about being raped. In my fantasies it can be quite violent but in reality I know that I would have to have the knowledge that he is enjoying it or would enjoy it looking back, couldn't do it (at this stage of my life) to someone knowing they 100% hated it and would never like any aspect of it.

A lot of my rape play, if you can call it that, is actually more like molestation play. I am the Daddy in my relationship and my girl plays the role of sweet and innocent very well even though we both know that she is not. So it's really hot to play with her when she's not in the mood for sex and find her getting aroused against her will only to finally give in completely to what I want. I get my power trip over knowing that my girl cannot resist me no matter how hard she tries. It's forcing in a way, but not so much since I always end up with a willing victim somewhere in the middle. I certainly hope there are times in the future when we can take it further and have more resistance and violence but it hasn't felt right to do such yet.



_____________________________

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(in reply to slavegirljoy)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: The other side of the Rape Fantasy - 1/9/2008 5:29:50 PM   
BossyShoeBitch


Posts: 3931
Joined: 1/13/2007
From: South Florida
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tigerstyle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

It would seem to me that only a rapist knows his motivation.  It's also pretty logical to think that that motivation is different for each and every rapist.  It would be a culmination of his life experiences.  I'm sure some are driven by power, some by sex, and some by both.  Does it really matter...same end result.


No doubt. I just resist the flat dogmatic assertion that power and sex are separate. This is always a hot button topic in BDSM circles, because none of us want to be seen as advocating rape and yet we tend to be a little more sensitive to the sexual nature of power than the normals.


For me to wrap me head around it, in this circumstance I tend to change the word "power" above to "authority" to fit into wiitwd.

_____________________________

A clever man can get out of situations a wise man never gets into...
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.

(in reply to tigerstyle)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: The other side of the Rape Fantasy - 1/9/2008 5:32:00 PM   
tigerstyle


Posts: 168
Joined: 5/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

From the American Journal of Psychiatry:
Rape: power, anger, and sexuality
AN Groth, W Burgess and LL Holmstrom

Accounts from both offenders and victims of what occurs during a rape suggest that issues of power, anger, and sexuality are important in understanding the rapist's behavior. All three issues seem to operate in every rape, but the proportion varies and one issue seems to dominate in each instance. The authors ranked accounts from 133 offenders and 92 victims for the dominant issue and found that the offenses could be categorized as power rape (sexuality used primarily to express power) or anger rape (use of sexuality to express anger). There were no rapes in which sex was the dominant issue; sexuality was always in the service of other, nonsexual needs.
 
Am J Psychiatry 1977; 134:1239-1243
Copyright © 1977 by American Psychiatric Association
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/134/11/1239

slave joy
Owned property of Master David


Far be it from me to gainsay the American Psychiatric Association. I'll just point out that as perverts, we know full well that in many sex acts period, sex is not (neceassarily) the dominant issue.

I don 't think it's all that complex. Some people get sexually aroused by raping. Is it about sex? For them, yes.

(in reply to slavegirljoy)
Profile   Post #: 60
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