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Submission. East Vs West - 1/9/2008 1:59:11 PM   
Shadowkeeper


Posts: 16
Joined: 1/18/2004
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A conversation with a fellow member on here has brought back some of my thoughts on Submission in the Western Vs Eastern cultuers. So i figured I would post a part of my conversation with her on here to get some input and exchange of ideas from other memebers.
 
My initial fascination with bdsm was due to my lack of understanding and confusion as to why hundreds of thousands if not millions of women in the so-called "free world", wish to be taken, controlled and even enslaved. When women in the east, whom are treated as male property in most respects, women in the supposedly "oppressed world" fight for independence, equality and even superiority.

It was a question, which eluded me for sometime. That is when I decided to dig deeper in the psychology of women. I wanted to explore further the depths of social standards Vs natural instincts, environment Vs genetics.

I started on that quest when I was 16. By the age of 19 it was all clear to me. Women in general are submissive, yes. Regardless if a woman is a seven eleven cashier or the president of the USA. Women have the ability to lead if they need to on many fronts. However when it comes to a relationship, no matter how powerful a woman is, she needs a man who would allow her to feel her fragility as a woman.

The essential difference between women in the east Vs women in the west is that women in the east have no choice but to submit. They are born and raised as property to the males in their family and eventually to their husbands, even their male sons. While women in the west grow in a society where they are encouraged to be free, and taught to be equal and better if possible than men.

Hence women in the east fight that misuse and misrepresentation of power, which is inflicted upon them, since they are not given the choice to submit rather they are forced to submit with little or not much choice. While women in the west are hammered into a mold of fighting against men as they grow up. Resulting in them feeling lost and confused, since the society's standards they grew up in goes completely against their nature.



The conclusion is, the East is too closed which ends up chocking the women and that creates resistance. The West is too open and free which ends up making the women feel a great gap with in them, a void that needs to be filled. One extreme leads to another extreme in different ways on both sides of the coin.
 
The key is to give the women the choice to submit in the manner they so choose, according to thier compatibility with the man they choose to submit to. Not just according to rules and regulations of their culture.

In truth, essentially women hold all the power, men are the guardians and rightful owners of that power. However, it is up to the men whether they choose to abuse that power or nourish it.
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RE: Submission. East Vs West - 1/9/2008 2:21:09 PM   
Statepalace


Posts: 185
Joined: 9/20/2007
Status: offline
I thought this was going to be a post about an underground subculture (pun intended) of submissive gangs - East Coast vs. West Coast.

I do not have the words to express my disappointment. No special hand signs? No special bandanna colors?

I was also a little peeved that the South coast was left out of the fun.

Never mind, though.

_____________________________

And if I cease to desire and remain still,
the empire will be at peace of its own accord

(in reply to Shadowkeeper)
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RE: Submission. East Vs West - 1/9/2008 2:33:12 PM   
Decimus


Posts: 174
Joined: 9/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shadowkeeper
...Women in general are submissive, yes...


I just want to disagree with that point, it is a context from which our society has coherced women due to society being male dominated historically for many hundreds of years. It is not an innate nature in women, in fact if you go back far enough historically women were in charge and worshipped.

I agree in todays society due to cultural conditioning its SEEMS that way, however it is not true, most women I would not classify as submissive more as following a cultural stereotype as human society seems to do in general. Many do not go against the grain which can lead to your above misconception.

Just an IMO.

_____________________________

Here is my story that some people have asked for, www.beginningofdreams.com

(in reply to Shadowkeeper)
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RE: Submission. East Vs West - 1/9/2008 2:46:56 PM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shadowkeeper




It was a question, which eluded me for sometime. That is when I decided to dig deeper in the psychology of women. I wanted to explore further the depths of social standards Vs natural instincts, environment Vs genetics.

I started on that quest when I was 16. By the age of 19 it was all clear to me. Women in general are submissive, yes. Regardless if a woman is a seven eleven cashier or the president of the USA. Women have the ability to lead if they need to on many fronts. However when it comes to a relationship, no matter how powerful a woman is, she needs a man who would allow her to feel her fragility as a woman.


I'm sorry because I'm a big supporter of young people but to think that you had it figured out in only three years by age 19 is just laughable.

When you've studied psychology and learned to do studies that are peer reviewed, when you've interviewed and observed thousands of women world wide over the course of decades, then come back and try your theory. Until then I can't take you seriously, dude.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to Shadowkeeper)
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RE: Submission. East Vs West - 1/9/2008 2:50:53 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
I'm a big supporter of young people but to think that you had it figured out in only three years by age 19 is just laughable.


Save your laughter for when he turns 21 and realizes that now he has it all figured out.

There is nothing like the confidence of youth.

Hell, I am thirty-mumble muble, and the only thing I know for sure about all women is there ain't no two alike.

Taggard


< Message edited by TallDarkAndWitty -- 1/9/2008 2:52:30 PM >


_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to thetammyjo)
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RE: Submission. East Vs West - 1/9/2008 2:57:34 PM   
orfunboi


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Damn, were we supposed to take that seriously? i thought it was a joke. Does that mean i should stop laughing now?

(in reply to thetammyjo)
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RE: Submission. East Vs West - 1/9/2008 3:00:26 PM   
orfunboi


Posts: 1223
Joined: 10/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
I'm a big supporter of young people but to think that you had it figured out in only three years by age 19 is just laughable.


Save your laughter for when he turns 21 and realizes that now he has it all figured out.

There is nothing like the confidence of youth.

Hell, I am thirty-mumble muble, and the only thing I know for sure about all women is there ain't no two alike.

Taggard


According to his profile, he is 25, not sure what's up with that....

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
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RE: Submission. East Vs West - 1/9/2008 3:18:17 PM   
Shadowkeeper


Posts: 16
Joined: 1/18/2004
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Apparently I am a young inexperienced and immature idiot. Yet it seems none of the post replies had any actual intellect behind them. WOW impressive, older and more experienced Dominants and submissives.
 
I grew up in the Middle East, traveled to a few places in Europe and lived in North America half my life. During that time, I observed, and dated women and girls of various ages and backgrounds. But especially the most exploring I did was during my 16th and 19th years. I am not going to elaborate on my personal experiences because this post was not intended to inflame, brag or insult anyone.
 
This post’s purpose was to have an intelligent conversation. But it seems I misplaced my post in a high school forum on myspace.com or perhaps it’s facebook.

(in reply to Shadowkeeper)
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RE: Submission. East Vs West - 1/9/2008 3:23:37 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
I'm a big supporter of young people but to think that you had it figured out in only three years by age 19 is just laughable.


Save your laughter for when he turns 21 and realizes that now he has it all figured out.

There is nothing like the confidence of youth.

Hell, I am thirty-mumble muble, and the only thing I know for sure about all women is there ain't no two alike.

Taggard



My bother once looked me in the eye and said.."I know women Jeff"....I laughed for 20 min.

Jeff

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
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RE: Submission. East Vs West - 1/9/2008 3:25:03 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff
My bother once looked me in the eye and said.."I know women Jeff"....I laughed for 20 min.


Gotta love the delusional!


_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to Jeffff)
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RE: Submission. East Vs West - 1/9/2008 3:26:45 PM   
CalifChick


Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shadowkeeper

A conversation with a fellow member on here has brought back some of my thoughts on Submission in the Western Vs Eastern cultuers. So i figured I would post a part of my conversation with her on here to get some input and exchange of ideas from other memebers.
 
<major snippage>




But the question remains... is it getting ya laid??

Cali


_____________________________

AKA "The Undisputed Goddess of Sarcasm", "Big Bad Cali" and "Yum Bum". Advisor to the Subbie Mafia, founding member of the W.A.C. and the Judgmental Bitches Brigade, member of the Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's and Team Troll

(in reply to Shadowkeeper)
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RE: Submission. East Vs West - 1/9/2008 3:29:37 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
~Fast Rely~

I pretty much disagree with everything there. Women are not submissive in general but some are. Frankly, to me anyway, submission is a luxery that I can have because my grandmother and her mother already fought to give me equal rights. If I did not have those rights, I would not have the luxery of submitting. I really don't consider it submission if it's something that is cultural or legally required and it doesn't mean all that much to me or my owner in those circumstances.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 1/9/2008 3:33:08 PM >


_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
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RE: Submission. East Vs West - 1/9/2008 3:30:28 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

But the question remains... is it getting ya laid??


Probably.  If it wasn't he would have started one of those "Why don't the slaves ever respond to my mass emailings?" thread.

Which means, he probably has some game, and this rap will work on a certain portion of the female populace.  If you want to get laid, and you have any game at all, all you need to do is make a big noise.  Doesn't even matter what it is you are saying.  Someone out there will fall for it...

Taggard


_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to CalifChick)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Submission. East Vs West - 1/9/2008 5:05:06 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shadowkeeper



I started on that quest when I was 16. By the age of 19 it was all clear to me. Women in general are submissive, yes.

 
I think you're confusing being nurturing with being submissive. Many women are nurturing. Although Kinsey's results could never be duplicated, even a 10% number means that 'most' women are not submissive. So, in general, women are not submissive.
 
quote:

Regardless if a woman is a seven eleven cashier or the president of the USA. Women have the ability to lead if they need to on many fronts. However when it comes to a relationship, no matter how powerful a woman is, she needs a man who would allow her to feel her fragility as a woman.

 
I have no idea where you got that idea. Today's woman, generally, feels empowered by her feminity, not fragile because of it. I won't get into lesbianism or dominant women but they are also a portion of the population and shouldn't be discounted. They certainly don't need a man allowing them to be fragile women.


quote:

While women in the west are hammered into a mold of fighting against men as they grow up. Resulting in them feeling lost and confused, since the society's standards they grew up in goes completely against their nature.

 
I don't know these lost women of whom you speak but if this is all true, then why have women gained more in terms of power and self actualization in the last hundred years? For thousands of years, women have been oppressed with little options in life. It's only fairly recently in terms of human history that options were open and the last hundred years have seen woman, as a whole, spread their wings and take flight. It's not society that has allowed this .. it's the taste of freedom that women have embraced and now, having tasted it, refuse to give it up. If it's so natural to be submissive and to base our end all be all on the male population, why would any woman have chosen a different path unless she were being true to her actual nature instead of a nature which has been dictated for her since humans evolved?

quote:

The key is to give the women the choice to submit in the manner they so choose, according to thier compatibility with the man they choose to submit to. Not just according to rules and regulations of their culture.

 
With this, I disagree completely. The key is for you to understand that some woman will submit and some won't. We don't need permission to be true to ourselves.


quote:

In truth, essentially women hold all the power, men are the guardians and rightful owners of that power. However, it is up to the men whether they choose to abuse that power or nourish it.



That's not a truth. In fact, the problem you're going to face is there are no universal truths when it comes to humans. The population is too diversified, the options available to all genders can't, now, be taken away.

Some women are submissive and some are not. Some women are nurturing, some are not. Some women weild power better than any man ever could and some women don't. Some women will fall to their knees before any powerful man, some women will never fall to their knees for anyone.

Amazingly, some men fit into each of those sentences above.

Go figure.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to Shadowkeeper)
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RE: Submission. East Vs West - 1/9/2008 5:09:35 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

But the question remains... is it getting ya laid??


Probably.  If it wasn't he would have started one of those "Why don't the slaves ever respond to my mass emailings?" thread.

Which means, he probably has some game, and this rap will work on a certain portion of the female populace.  If you want to get laid, and you have any game at all, all you need to do is make a big noise.  Doesn't even matter what it is you are saying.  Someone out there will fall for it...

Taggard



Maybe not. It's possible he thinks this will get him laid and will do the "Why isn't anyone responding and sinking to their knees before my mighty truth" thread in a few weeks.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
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RE: Submission. East Vs West - 1/9/2008 5:13:13 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
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Which "Western and Eastern cultuers" are you talking about?  They're not all the same.  Is there a checkpoint or something that you cross somewhere: "Caution: Entering the East Now"?  What you wrote here is typical of lazy dyadic thinking: take two reductionist categories, "show" why they go to opposite extremes, and try to blaze an innovative path between Scylla and Charybdis.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shadowkeeper

A conversation with a fellow member on here has brought back some of my thoughts on Submission in the Western Vs Eastern cultuers.  The West is too open and free which ends up making the women feel a great gap with in them, a void that needs to be filled. One extreme leads to another extreme in different ways on both sides of the coin.


< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 1/9/2008 5:15:24 PM >

(in reply to Shadowkeeper)
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RE: Submission. East Vs West - 1/9/2008 5:40:29 PM   
hisannabelle


Posts: 1992
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
Status: offline
greetings shadowkeeper,

as someone who studies southeast asia, women's studies, and cross-cultural exchange and academic theory, and plans to make a living out of it...you've never, like, actually read anything by people who've done real research on this, have you? cause it comes across in your post.

i gotta side with tammy jo on this one. by the way, i'm 20, so i'm the last person here to judge you because of your age. it isn't your age, it's the fact that you think that having grown up somewhere and traveled a bit means you can explain the entire world AND gender relations in one succinct post (which happens to be an inane post regardless of whether or not one agrees with the idea that women are naturally submissive).

respectfully,
annabelle, who was really hoping this was actually going to be a thread on submission across cultures and not a thread on asinine, uninformed assumptions. :\ just rain all over my damn parade! (i was all excited when i saw the thread title.)


_____________________________

a'ishah (the artist formerly known as annabelle)
i have the kind of beauty that moves...

(in reply to Shadowkeeper)
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RE: Submission. East Vs West - 1/9/2008 5:54:15 PM   
Shadowkeeper


Posts: 16
Joined: 1/18/2004
Status: offline
When I said women are generally submissive, I did not mean over all women are submissive in all aspects of their lives. I meant that generally speaking MOST women are submissive by nature. They have a need to submit in their personal relationships to their significant others.
 
Fragility does not always mean weakness. Or at least it does not mean total weakness. Fragility could also mean vulnerability. When I said a woman needs to feel her fragility by being with a stronger man, I did not mean that women are weak period.
 
What I meant was that a woman would need a man who would let her feel the weaknesses or vulnerabilities she posses yet allow her to expand on her strengths.
 
As far as lesbians and dominant women are concerned, I once more say it, women IN GENEREAL, as in, MOST WOMEN, are submissive. NOT ALL WOMEN ARE.
 
I am not speaking about the last one hundred years or even the last 50 years. I am speaking about the last 30 years and up until today. The normal in the Western society is to have no independence on men. May it be emotional, financial or in any means. Perhaps that is more evident in industrial and capital cities.
 
Which is great when it comes to a woman finding her place in society and creating her own achievements and finger print on the world. But the problem is when that streak of independence over flows into their personal relationships. When they mix career and social independence with relationship independence.
 
I never said anything about women needing permission to be true to themselves. However, women do need guidance to blossom into their full potential. Otherwise, why would there be a need for “training” by a their Masters??
 
And that is my point. The role of the Master is to guide and nurture his submissive or slave, although many choose to abuse that role.
 
Yes of course everyone is different. Everyone has a unique intake on how they express their dominance or submission. Some of us are tall, some of us are short, some are dark and some are pale. But just as we are all, "Generally speaking" essentially the same biologically, we are, "Generally speaking" essentially the same psychologically.
 
What differentiates us from one another is how we go about fulfilling and expressing our needs, wants and desires.

(in reply to BitaTruble)
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RE: Submission. East Vs West - 1/9/2008 5:57:12 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline
West Coast!!!

_____________________________



(in reply to Shadowkeeper)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Submission. East Vs West - 1/9/2008 5:59:06 PM   
hisannabelle


Posts: 1992
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
Status: offline
greetings shadowkeeper,

qualifying it and repeating it doesn't make it any truer, in my experience.

women need no more guidance than men - and not all masters believe in "training." i was a whole person before i met my master, i'm still a whole person, i'm capable of taking care of myself and fulfilling my own life - i don't need him to do that for me. he wouldn't have it any other way.

happening to have been born with ovaries does not make one anymore likely to be submissive than happening to have been born with testes. growing up in the "east" does not make one anymore likely to be submissive than growing up in the "west." et cetera, et cetera. repeating that and trying to justify it as common knowledge and/or true because you moved around a bit and met a few different women doesn't actually make it true.

respectfully,
annabelle.


_____________________________

a'ishah (the artist formerly known as annabelle)
i have the kind of beauty that moves...

(in reply to Shadowkeeper)
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