RE: Solutions for sissies (Full Version)

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LadyClaudiaVan -> RE: Solutions for sissies (1/16/2008 1:54:25 PM)

I would venture to say that at least with a fetishist, the attraction is on something other than the person himself and yet, with a cross-dresser the FETISH is HIMSELF. <blah> Gwad. Scuse me but be a man and please stop looking ridiculous because its really not erotic one bit.




solvr70 -> RE: Solutions for sissies (1/16/2008 2:34:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

That definition quote is from someone else, BTW...  

Thigh high leather boots are a great look! 


true. it was by someone else.

and i'm honored at You thinking that would make a great look. it certainly does put one's mind, and look, in the right place for certain kinds of scenes. it being all about enhancing the scene in as many ways as O/one can imagine.




LadyHibiscus -> RE: Solutions for sissies (1/16/2008 3:29:53 PM)

I really love the all-out leather or latex look---frilly french maid styles just remind me of Shirley Temple!  Plus, the smell and sounds of the leather add a whole new dimension to the outfit.




cloudboy -> RE: Solutions for sissies (1/16/2008 3:44:26 PM)

quote:

I am not the whole sum of my kinks. While they may make up a part of my identity, they are not my identity. Both of your one-size-fits-all advice may be relevant to some people, but certainly not to those of us who are multi-faceted.


What differentiates you from others on this thread is how you individualize. You don't have mass generalizations, don't use plurals (when speaking of others), and see M/S connections as more than a game or commercial enterprise.

What I also like about your post is your obvious ability to see another person in full, as opposed to seeing him as a boytoy in a labeled box --- whom you would pull out, manipulate, gain ego gratification from, and thereafter feel emboldened to generalize about.

Individualization goes both ways, too. FemDoms are not fetish-clad, spank artists, with imperial personalities and micro=managerial mindsets.

First and foremost you are women, living lives, going about the project of human relations and responsibilities in your job, and with friends and family. You come with political views, character forging pasts, aesthetic tastes, yearnings for normal sensuality, and yearnings for satisfying, intimate connections. Of course there is the twist of S&M, too. So just as you should not approach a malesub as a "fetishist," "sissy," or "bottom," --- but instead as a full fledged person --- the malesub needs to do the same with you.

Working angles to get one's dating foot in the door has its uses --- but they will never in the end serve as the moving force to forge a satisfying relationship.

Its funny, quality posting leads to quality thinking --- and I must say there's been some good stuff in this thread. If I had to say, the challenging of the superficial -- as opposed to giving it a free pass --- always leads to quality dialogue.




SolangeRichards -> RE: Solutions for sissies (1/16/2008 3:46:35 PM)

I think you are possibly thinking of transvestic fetishism.  The fetish is not the person doing it however, it is the clothing itself.

There are any number of different reasons crossdressing behaviors but in my research I have not seen self-fetish pop up as one of them yet.

I suppose one could have a fetish for oneself, but I think that might more likely be an outgrowth of narcissism.  I'll agree that narcissism shows up in the crossdressing world, as it does throughout society, but I have no personal experiences that indicate to me it is occuring at a higher rate than to the public at large.




cloudboy -> RE: Solutions for sissies (1/16/2008 4:04:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nats

what makes a man a "manly man" is merely a social construct. To say that a man is effeminate, timid, cowardly, or somehow less of a man because of clothes that he chooses to wear, is complete bullshit. It may not be something you're attracted to, fine, but I am, and I find the belittling character generalizations and insults in this thread to be extremely saddening.


The bigotry comes with the territory here. Those most afflicted by its grip don't even realize they have it.

Must say, though, that I disagree with "what makes a man a "manly man" is merely a social construct."

In any kind of broad, mass, general sense, I agree with you. But on a personal, one-to-one level --- the "manly man" is what the other feels and observes. This differentiated subjectivity is very powerful, and it is probably the most "real" thing any individual guy will experience. Hence, before a bigotted woman, the CD may actually feel like shit -- or unmanly -- or unworthy --- or otherwise rejectable and self loathing. But before the appreciative woman -- he might feel rather whole ----

and as you've pointed out --- when enfemme --- you've just got one part of the man in play anyway.

In general, being different and unvalued -- if not attacked and derided --- is alienating enough. Brokering a compromise or pimping yourself out/down to seduce a woman is also somewhat alienating -- but maybe necessary as Aakasha points out.

But what's sad, as you say, is people who just like to pile onto someone's already difficult and challenging situation. Why do others feel a need to blame those who are different --- as being responsible for "not fitting in?"

Being true to oneself actually takes courage -- especially when swimming against the tide. I think we should thank god for those who value and stick with their own authenticity over-and-above "fitting in," "selling-out," or unduly compromising themselves.

Funny, too, some Doms/Femdoms actually define "submission" this very way --- pushing self aside to please the dominant. This could be sexy in areas of a relationshp, but if that was the core demand of the relationship --- I think the dynamic would be doomed.




LotusSong -> RE: Solutions for sissies (1/16/2008 9:12:35 PM)

Sissy,  I'm curious about your use of the word Bigot.  Have you actually looked up the meaning?  There are two.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
big·ot  [image]http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif[/image]  [image]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png[/image][image]http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif[/image]  /ˈbɪg[image]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png[/image]ət/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[big-uh[image]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png[/image]t] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun



a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.





[Origin: 1590–1600; < MF (OF: derogatory name applied by the French to the Normans), perh. < OE bī God by God[image]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png[/image]]



Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This



big·ot  [image]http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif[/image]  [image]http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif[/image]   (bĭg'ət)  Pronunciation Key  n.   One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

I know you focus on the first definition..do you realize how much of a bigot YOU actually are?  Check the red definition.  Is anyone with a difference of opinion a bigot?  Or are you just the pot calling a kettle black?
 
Please don't think that people can't separate the fetish from the person.  It's the FETISH one isn't untested in.  One can like the person aside from their fetish.  Happens to me all the time :)  While  Goreans may think me enjoying being a Domme is just AWFUL, they can like me as a person. (and some actually do).
 
And Nat.. I don't know where you feel that my suggestion for Dommes and Aakasha's concurrence was a generalization.
 
To me, I will not lump all men wearing feminine attire as a cross dresser.  They are all exclusive unto themselves and the motivations of each are unique.  Even you refer to your boy with a texture enjoyment of female fabrics as a cross dresser where I would call him a texturist.   Would you call him a sissy?  And btw.. the definition of sissy is from the Webster's Dictionary.  Any disdain needs to be taken up with that publication.




LotusSong -> RE: Solutions for sissies (1/16/2008 9:56:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SolangeRichards

I suppose one could have a fetish for oneself, but I think that might more likely be an outgrowth of narcissism.  I'll agree that narcissism shows up in the crossdressing world, as it does throughout society, but I have no personal experiences that indicate to me it is occuring at a higher rate than to the public at large.


I caught a program last night where they were discussing narcissism.  The part that caught my eye was the following comment found in this link http://www.narcissism.operationdoubles.com/malignant_narcissism.htm

It states:  "For example, if he becomes angry at something you said, you naturally think that he took it the wrong way and will be appeased by conciliatory words an expressions from you.  But he goes ballistic at you for trying to appease him..."




 




cloudboy -> RE: Solutions for sissies (1/16/2008 10:01:48 PM)

LS:

I am open to any and all criticism, and I won't run from it. I put myself out there, so whatever I say or however I conduct myself is up for scrutiny. I don't see myself as either infallible or all knowing. I know I have a penchant to be zealous, too.

As for bigots, your definition left out racial intolerance.

Bigotry is also in play here --- which can pertain to beliefs and prejudices. To me, this is the area most salient to this thread and its themes. Statements like girl's aren't good at math, femdoms are greedy bitches, and blacks aren't suited for white collar jobs are bigoted. These characterizations aren't exactly intolerant, but they do reflect ingrained, negative perceptions about groups of people.

Anyway, I'd love to know how I'm bigoted or exhibit bigotry.

I don't know what your claim is, but I've adamantly defended the right to kink-rejection. What I've opposed is elevating kink-rejection or revulsion into some sort of objective creed --- that projects intrinsic negatives onto the distasteful kinkster.

To wit, I don't think sissies have an "acceptance problem." Rather, I think many woman have a distaste for sissies.

I have also said that women (or men) who have a distaste for sissies/CDs are unlikely to offer them helpful advice. This is my position, and I suppose you might call that bigoted, but there is a rational basis (lack of compassion, lack of understanding, lack of connection to, inherent prejudices and distaste for....etc.) to it --- as opposed to a personal one (femdom's don't get sissies.)




ElanSubdued -> RE: Solutions for sissies (1/17/2008 2:23:43 AM)

Nats,

quote:

For me personally, I completely disagree with these sentiments.  I am not the whole sum of my kinks.  While they may make up a part of my identity, they are not my identity.  Both of your one-size-fits-all advice may be relevant to some people, but certainly not to those of us who are multi-faceted.

(snipped, only for brevity)

I need compatibility in all realms (personal core values, beliefs, life's goals, mental and emotional compatibility, chemistry, and to a lesser focus, kink compatibility).  I want a life partner whom I can share all of my interests with, something that transcends the kinks and places the focus on life companionship.  I won't compromise my needs or someone else's just so that either of us can settle for something less than we both need.  I would be extremely insulted and hurt if I found out a partner did that to be with me. I wouldn't want them to feel that they had to change a core element about themselves to fit into my mold.

When it comes to crossdressing, what makes a man a "manly man" is merely a social construct. To say that a man is effeminate, timid, cowardly, or somehow less of a man because of clothes that he chooses to wear, is complete bullshit.  It may not be something you're attracted to, fine, but I am, and I find the belittling character generalizations and insults in this thread to be extremely saddening.

Personally, I love a man dressed in women's lingerie (one of my main kinks and sweetest indulgences).  A man dressed in a soft silk negligee, and coming to me for the same reasons that a woman would dress in lingerie for her partner (for both's personal pleasure), completely makes me melt.  For me, the turn-off is when I have to force them to dress up in make-up and lingerie.  I find the feel of silk, satin, and stockings to be highly erotic (on both of us).  I like when my partner looks and feels sensuous in it, and that he's doing it as much for me as for himself... when he doesn't have to shackle himself to socially constructed chains that say a certain type of clothing change who I perceive him to be... a sensuous and alluring man whom I have the utmost desire for.  If I have to force that type of mental, physical and emotional response in my partner, it doesn't interest me (at least not in this realm).  I prefer to elicit vulnerability or other reactions in other ways.  That's just me, and what it all comes down to is personal compatibility (from all of the ways I mentioned before, and then some that were excluded), the personal motivations behind both of our kinks, and being true to both myself and to others; all of which make up a part of why I found the advice and one-size-fits-all generalizations, and belittling comments in this thread to be offensive.

That's apples and oranges in my book.  I prefer a man to dress in lingerie because we both derive personal enjoyment from it.  I don't want him to be embarrassed, feel somehow less than a man, humiliated because he has to wear it, or vulnerable by the clothes themself... that's my job, and something I seek to do and elicit.  I certainly don't feel that way when I wear lingerie, and certainly don't want my partner to neither.  If he does, then we're at differing motivations, and since it's a huge kink of mine, I'd say we're not compatible in that area, and depending on the circumstances, both should move on.

(snipped, once again, only for brevity)

I like hands-on, I like to indulge all of my senses.  I like to constantly taste, touch, see, and feel my partner in every way imaginable.  Sensuousness and sadistic pleasures are quite easily intermingled.  I'm actually quite surprised and bewildered that anyone would deduce that sensualness, or perhaps seduction would be a better description, could not possibly go hand in hand with domination, power exchange, or sadistic pleasures.  That's really quite limiting. I see no reason why either I or my partner should possibly settle for less.

So, if they're settling as you say, and really want more, then we're obviously not compatible, and both should've moved on. I'm certainly not going to change a core part of myself for them.  I don't think it's either possible or healthy.  Although from your initial post, that was exactly what I got from you, that they should learn to settle for someone who is less than compatible for themselves.  That is definitely not the advice I would have given out; especially if crossdressing and sissification was not my kink to begin with.  If you're not into it, fine, but there's no reason for someone to conform to another's ideals.


After learning this lesson the hard way, I never post personal messages on a bulleting board.  That said, there is no way I could ignore these thoughts (or the woman) that so gently, sumptuously, and most luxuriously caressed and corrupted my imagination.  Raw, passionate, touching, intimate, rough, intellectual, outspoken, soft, compassionate, and sensual - such a vivid, multi-coloured tapestry illuminating your soul.  I'm not quite sure how we misfired.  More importantly, there isn't a single word I would change in the thoughts you've shared.  Thank you for reminding me of some amazing conversations that truly changed my perspective on BDSM relationships.

*adjusts his slip, garters, and stockings and goes back to reading his book*

Elan.




SolangeRichards -> RE: Solutions for sissies (1/17/2008 6:06:23 AM)

That is an interesting link to a book sale site you provided LotusSong.

The comment that caught your eye, for the benefit of those who don't follow the link, is from a discussion concerning a condition called malignant narcissism.  This condition  would appear in someone suffering from Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

Malignant narcissism is a personality disorder that can include elements of anti-social behavior, paranoia, aggressiveness,  absence of conscience, a need for power, a sense of self-importance, cruelty and sadism.  Studiers of child molesters, child murderers, sexual murderers, mass murderers and serial killers are familiar with the condition as it is encountered in those varying groups.

Though I enjoyed the article and found the author's conclusions interesting, I also noted that the author was very clear that she is not a health care professional,  has no training in that field and has no creditionals in that field.  She is in fact a high school science teacher and tennis pro and a free lance writer of instructional tennis articles.  She states her knowledge of the subject are her opinions based on her interactions with narcissists, her research into narcissism and the interactions of people she knows with narcissists.  She in fact urges any reader who may encounter her work and is considering a paper on the subject of narcissism to seek an "authoritative source".....




solvr70 -> RE: Solutions for sissies (1/17/2008 9:25:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

I really love the all-out leather or latex look---frilly french maid styles just remind me of Shirley Temple!  Plus, the smell and sounds of the leather add a whole new dimension to the outfit.


yes. the smell of the leather does something too. and frilly just does not seem to add anything to a scene at all.

now nipple clamps on the other hand, they add something to the boots, corset and (optionally) makeup [;)]




LadyHibiscus -> RE: Solutions for sissies (1/17/2008 12:15:12 PM)

Dang quoting feature won't load....

Those outfits with the zipper openings over the breasts are ideal!  (I love zippers!)  and dramatic, goth makeup.... but no wigs, for me wigs just wreck it--I prefer to mess with the hairstyle, maybe add faux dreads or a fall in a fantasy color, or feathers......  but I adore drag queens, so I think it's the whole glam aesthetic.  and boots!  there's a guy who comes to our local events in the most FAB boots.... 

whooops!  I forgot that I am a sissy hating bigot for a bit there!  lol!




tasha_tart -> RE: Solutions for sissies (1/17/2008 1:23:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

quote:

ORIGINAL: SolangeRichards

I suppose one could have a fetish for oneself, but I think that might more likely be an outgrowth of narcissism.  I'll agree that narcissism shows up in the crossdressing world, as it does throughout society, but I have no personal experiences that indicate to me it is occuring at a higher rate than to the public at large.


I caught a program last night where they were discussing narcissism.  The part that caught my eye was the following comment found in this link http://www.narcissism.operationdoubles.com/malignant_narcissism.htm

It states:  "For example, if he becomes angry at something you said, you naturally think that he took it the wrong way and will be appeased by conciliatory words an expressions from you.  But he goes ballistic at you for trying to appease him..."



Here is a bit more to go with that quote:

Malignant narcissism is a perverse pathology ranging along a spectrum from Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) to psychopathy. All psychopaths are narcissists, but there is as yet some doubt whether all narcissists are psychopaths. Most psychopaths never commit a violent crime, or any crime, and the difference between psychopathy and malignant narcissism is hazy at best and may be non-existent.

Underneath, these people are very different from you and I. They pass for normal but don't think the way normal human beings do. They aren't acting on normal human premises. So, the normal "rules" of human interaction don't apply in interactions with a narcissist.

 






For example, if he becomes angry at something you said, you naturally think that he took it the wrong way and will be appeased by conciliatory words and expressions from you. But he goes ballistic at you for trying to appease him. What's going on here? 





That's what What Makes Narcissists Tick is here to explain. Being a writer, I feel that I should use my ability to describe and explain narcissism in a way that is clear and meaningful to the average person. For, 1-to-3 people in every 20 you meet is a malignant narcissist.

Is there any reason you decided on a segue from "sissies" to "psychopaths"?
 
Tasha
 
((my apologies for the formatting; can't get rid of the extra blank lines))
 




cloudboy -> RE: Solutions for sissies (1/17/2008 2:04:17 PM)




quote:

ORIGINAL: tasha_tart

Is there any reason you decided on a segue from "sissies" to "psychopaths"?



I think she's angling to tag me someone else here as either a bigot, narcissist, or both. If there's a candidate pool, I'm sure I'm in it. Of course its always a little more sinister to leave something like that out there open endedly. It gives everyone that restless wondering factor.




LotusSong -> RE: Solutions for sissies (1/17/2008 9:48:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tasha_tart





That's what What Makes Narcissists Tick is here to explain. Being a writer, I feel that I should use my ability to describe and explain narcissism in a way that is clear and meaningful to the average person. For, 1-to-3 people in every 20 you meet is a malignant narcissist.


Is there any reason you decided on a segue from "sissies" to "psychopaths"?
 
Tasha
 
((my apologies for the formatting; can't get rid of the extra blank lines))
 


I was looking for the exact program to see if it was on line someplace so I could refer to it directly.  It was a segment in a cable program called "Most Evil".  While I was surfing and reading articles I saw the quote and thought it applied to those that "go ballistic" when someone tries to appease them if they think he took something wrong or whatever...  and yes.it did make me think of Sissify. Guess he saw himself in it also.
 
Sissify..you keep saying that Dommes don't "get" sissies..what EXACTLY don't we "get"?  What IS there to "get"? There must be the converse to your situation..what do YOU not "get"about NOT ALL DOMMES are into it?  No one is saying you shouldn't be a sissy.  It's your thing.  But you are comming across so militant it makes me wonder if we should create some sort of  "adopt a sissy" program.  Maybe we need to start a "What is Special About a Sissy and Why Everyone Should Have One".  I get so angry with you because you are on attack with everyone who is not gushing over your situation.  Let's have some meaningful discussions about it.
 
Tasha..do you identify as a cross dresser or a sissy?  If not..why not?  IF there is a difference in your eyes..what is the difference?
 
Sissify: my post of "Sissy's Acceptance Problem" you keep referring to ad nauseum.. was meant to HELP give INSIGHT and ACKNOWLEDGMENT to those that look for some kind of recognition in the D/s venue when they are not there to be a submissive..just hope to find someone to appease their desire to dress and be admired.  It's difficult.  Much like going to a bowling alley and asking "tennis anyone"?  People go there to BOWL at that time and place.  One of those people might be a tennis enthusiast but you would have to go to the tennis court at the time they are there to play tennis with them.
 
I must admint..that my time int he dungeon venue.. I don't' think I saw one sissy.  I saw cross dressers.. I saw trans gendered individuals, I saw transvestites.. but no overt sissies.  So where can a sissy go to meet someone?  Are the majority straight males and are alarmed that straight women aren't attracted to a male that looks female for purposes other than occasional situations.. whatever that may be?  I really don't have any answers.  I wish I did.
 
My girlfriend's husband who is a cross dresser (not a sissy) even started a support group where they could meet to exchange ideas.. a dressing room to apply makeup and clothes, discuss their ideas and experiences and concerns.. but it faded rather quickly.  I don't know why.  Probably because there were no women there?  I don't know.  He even was a past president of Tri S (sp?)  He gives talks at other groups on cross dressing.  He's written books on it in support and sharing his experiences.




cloudboy -> RE: Solutions for sissies (1/17/2008 10:31:16 PM)


Now I know why Moderator 11 shuts threads down. LS, there is just something impermeable about you, and I'll just have to accept that.

I think its time to move on. All the best.




tasha_tart -> RE: Solutions for sissies (1/18/2008 4:30:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

Tasha..do you identify as a cross dresser or a sissy?  If not..why not?  IF there is a difference in your eyes..what is the difference?
 


I identify as a cross dresser.  I've never identified as a sissy, though I'd be hard pressed to explain the difference between the two.  It's kind of like the old "I might not know what's art, but I know what I like" idea.  I've just never thought of myself as a "sissy".
 
Though I've met a fair number of CDs in the flesh, so to speak, I don't think I've met any who would define themselves as sissies.  I do know some CDs on line who would identify as sissies.
 
What separates them?  Aside from self-identification (if he says he's a sissy, he is a sissy) the only thing I'd point to the level of submission.  In my limited experience, those who self-identify as sissies seem to be much more submissive and dressing helps put them in that mindset.
 
Before anyone flames me, I am not defining all CDs, sissies, those who identify as either, or anyone in between.  I am speaking only from my experience, and I only know self-identified sissies on line, which may be a poor sample to base any conclusions on.
 
I find the use of the word "sissy" problematic.  It is still used in the mainstream as an insult, aimed particularly at anyone who falls short of a stereotypical macho ideal.
 
Tasha




SolangeRichards -> RE: Solutions for sissies (1/18/2008 5:34:40 AM)

 
[/quote]


 
I find the use of the word "sissy" problematic.  It is still used in the mainstream as an insult, aimed particularly at anyone who falls short of a stereotypical macho ideal.
 

[/quote]

You're close, you're almost there.

Many men fall short of that stereotypical ideal, yet society does not brand them as sissies.

The term sissy is for men who are more feminine than masculine.  It is used in society to hurt and insult men who are attracted to the feminine and see it in themselves.  It's for men who reject the path that society orders them to follow and who choose instead to follow their own star and be true to themselves.  It is used early on to instruct young boys to turn away from what society calls female traits and ideals, and it is used to force those same small children to conform to a set of rules that I frankly have seen few men as being tough enough to follow.

It is a special, and particular insult, used against men who in some sort of way want to be like women.  The execution of that goal by those men is often flawed, we have much anectdotal evidence of that right here on this thread for example, but the desire is there in some form or another.  It's an insult for men who do not feel they fit into what society calls man, and who on some level recognize that woman is a closer term for what they are feeling.

Make no mistake though.  The term is used as an insult to men who want to be like women, but it is also an insult to women in general.  It is used as a way to control feminine men, and by extension of that, to control women.  It's a not so subtle way of reinforcing the idea that to be a man is somehow higher, something to achieve, something, somehow more, than being a woman could ever be....




diaperedbaby -> RE: Solutions for sissies (1/18/2008 8:12:48 AM)

For me, the sissy aspect has more to do with role play were submission and AB lifestyle comes into play.
Outside of that, one would not get that impression just meeting me on the street or something.




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