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RE: .Erasing flaws. - 1/15/2008 10:22:24 AM

RCdc

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Thank you for writing szobras - lots of food for thought there.
I do hope works are going well and that your new year rocks and that both yourself and yours are well.

the.dark.

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RE: .Erasing flaws. - 1/15/2008 10:28:56 AM

YourhandMyAss

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THANK YOU! FINALLY someone admits wanting to change behaviors is not wanting to change the core being of the person, there for bad or why be with them mindset.

just change habbits that might not be the greatest and they'd be better off with out that habbit.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

Speaking for our family only, it isn't really about trying to change who the person is. Yes, there are certain behaviors that we each have that annoys, irritates or that we find unpleasant. Some of them we just accept and learn to live with. Others we decide that we wish to improve that aspect and seek to do better.

I think I have mentioned this in another post but we do not perceive behavior as being who we are. Our behavior is just a way that we demonstrate who we are and then there are other behaviors that have little to do with who we are; they are just habits picked up over the years. It may be that there are other behaviors that would more appropriately demonstrate our core selves.

From the perspective that changing behavior does not automatically mean changing who we are,
Knight's Kyra

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RE: .Erasing flaws. - 1/15/2008 10:30:08 AM

RCdc

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Thank you for your input Kyra. It all made total sense.
Can I ask you though, what would you have done if you could not bring your cats along? Or is that really an unanswerable question because you haven't been placed in that position?

Yes, the new year is going well for Darcy and myself - although a fall down the stairs in the middle of the night has placed me slightly immobile (and under doctors orders not to drive) and thinking too much!

As always, Darcy and I send our regards to Knight, Alandra and yourself, with much love from me!

the.dark.

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RE: .Erasing flaws. - 1/15/2008 10:40:48 AM

RCdc

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The core of my question comes not so much from wanting something changed and asking for it before submission occurs, YHMA - but after - and then sometimes making it a condition (as szobras pointed out).

I do not see how leaving the toilet seat up is a changable offense. And I don't get that from Kyras post at all, more that her Master understands why the toilet seat would be better down for the cats, not that she tried to change him or it makes him better.

I don't get the thought that a person might be better without a certain habit? Who gets to make that choice? Who gets to decide?

the.dark.

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RE: .Erasing flaws. - 1/15/2008 10:41:16 AM

sweetwenchie

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i would be willing to change some of my habits and quirks if i was with a Master that wished me to. i could not change the core being inside myself, but in the past have given up certain habits and so forth when it was desired. Once i was made to give up smoking... that was altering something about myself, granted it was something negative and unhealthy, but i enjoyed it damnit! lol There are other issues and instances i can think of that have been changed, or even should be changed in the future if desired. Hopefully whoever i desire, and desires me in return is attracted me for who and what i am, without instantly making a list of "I would only want you if..."

Could i submit to someone knowing that i wanted them to change for me? NO i can either accept them for all their foilables and quirks as that is part and parcel of what they are, or i can decide within myself that they are not "right" for me personally and walk away. To date i have not met anyone that is perfect in every way, i find that it is the flaws and quirks that make people interesting and, well, entertaining.

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RE: .Erasing flaws. - 1/15/2008 10:45:00 AM

Justme696

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quote:

To date i have not met anyone that is perfect in every way, i find that it is the flaws and quirks that make people interesting and, well, entertaining.

I think the same. The flaws and curiosities make the person who he/she is

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RE: .Erasing flaws. - 1/15/2008 10:50:48 AM

DesFIP

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Minor habits, sure I alter. Personality changes? No way.

And why can't I have a pet peeve or two? He was complaining today about not finding any socks. Well, I start rooting through the clothes he keeps claiming aren't really dirty so they shouldn't be washed, but also aren't clean so they aren't getting hung back up and lo and behold, there are three missing pairs of socks. He wears stuff for a couple of hours and then puts them on the side and doesn't come back to them, of course he doesn't know where they are. And therefore he shouldn't complain about not finding them when it's his own fault for losing them.

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RE: .Erasing flaws. - 1/15/2008 10:54:31 AM

kyraofMists

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My pleasure, dark.

Sorry to hear about your fall; that sounds horribly painful and not in a good way. Hope you get better quickly.

If I could not have brought the cats at all; then I would not be in a relationship with him. I remember very clearly the conversation that we had about that and I knew that leaving them behind was not an option for me and asking that of me was not an option for him either. They are very much a part of me and I do not want to live without the love and affection they give.

Thankfully, he is who he is and he challenged his opinon and realized that it was not based on actual experience but on stereotypes and misinformation.

Knight's Kyra

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RE: .Erasing flaws. - 1/15/2008 10:55:04 AM

Justme696

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Doesn't every one change slowly when you are together. This is ofcourse not soemthing that is asked for or ordered in a D/s....but more like adjusting. Nature itself causes this also

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RE: .Erasing flaws. - 1/15/2008 11:05:40 AM

YourhandMyAss

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Maybe the habbits that are detrimental to their growth and happyness were not made aware of before submission, maybe that's both people's faults, but How can you not understand that certain habbits are determental to someone or holds someone back? LEts say the habbit of belching anywhere where any time what ever you're doing regardless of the situation. Said person would do better tolearn chose more appropriate settings to belch loudly* IE excuse yourself and go somewhere alone to belch* or try not to burp so loudly. Bad social skills habbits will make you mighty unpopular and soon you could find yourself a social piriah for a habbit that could have been easily fixable.

* thankfully in this case he don't do that, but if he did I'd certaintly request he not do that, and if he refused not to do that I simply wouldn't go out in public with someone who had no desire not to be offensive when in public.*

Or lets say they have a habbit of scratching their balls or digging at other stinky orifices, then sniffing them while in bed with a partner, and partner finds it offensive cause sweaty balls stink, and now the smells on their hands and smellable to you.

Or lets say they have a habbit of eating dairy whe they KNOW their lactose intolerant and it makes them shit their pants cause it's so violent and immediat. Should it just go on being acceptable to take the risk that in eating dairy, even a little bit such as dressing in a salad, that you could shit all over yourself, in public?

LEts say that someone didn't know this before submitting to said person, and apon finding out , decided it was something they wanted changed. I can ask for all of that to change, and yeah ultimatly it's up to him tod ecide which ones should change if he thinks they should, and then if it's important enough to me I can base my descion on what to do, based on what he decides.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

The core of my question comes not so much from wanting something changed and asking for it before submission occurs, YHMA - but after - and then sometimes making it a condition (as szobras pointed out).

I don't get the thought that a person might be better without a certain habit? Who gets to make that choice? Who gets to decide?

the.dark.

< Message edited by YourhandMyAss -- 1/15/2008 11:25:42 AM >

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RE: .Erasing flaws. - 1/15/2008 11:08:52 AM

subtee

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quote:

Why submit to someone you would want to change (your Master/Dominant *insertermhere*)?

It seems to me that only ever worked out for that subliest of subs, Cinderella. There she was, an equal only of the mice and submissive to everyone else. And there's P.C., loving life out on his "stag," killing things and roaming and whatnot, til the King and Queen decided they wanted some grand-royalty and made Charming have a ball. Only he didn't think it would be. Until ~que celestial music~ he spies Cindy. That's all it takes! He's completely transformed and wants nothing but to get with her--even going to the extent that he's got Dom frenzy, scouring the countryside and cramming every bunioned, calloused foot he can find into the glass slipper to find her. Once he does, because she is the subliest in all the land and he's completely changed his interests, it's "happily ever after."

--it's a fairy tale, it what I'm suggesting. And, I believe, why so many relationships fail.

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RE: .Erasing flaws. - 1/15/2008 11:09:36 AM

kyraofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: YourhandMyAss

THANK YOU! FINALLY someone admits wanting to change behaviors is not wanting to change the core being of the person,

I think it really depends. Sometimes changing a behavior may be changing who the person is and other times it may not.

I think the analogy that was used in a workshop on humiliation play is very apt for this. I have heard this analogy second hand so it may not be exact. The presenter compared a person to the walls of a house (others who have been to the workshop may have more details than I do). Some of those walls are load bearing and removing them would alter the structure or core of the house. Other walls are there to only divide rooms. The non load bearing walls can be altered, changed or removed and have no negative impact on the structure of the house. However, changing or removing load bearing walls is another matter all together.

Some behaviors are very integral to the core of a person. Altering or removing those behaviors would change who the person is. Other behaviors are not. Being poly and having a somewhat open relationship is an integral part of my Lord. It would be very foolish of me to enter a relationship with him and then try to change that about him. On the other hand, there are some things he does that even he doesn't like and changing them will not change who he is.

Knight's Kyra

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RE: .Erasing flaws. - 1/15/2008 11:15:41 AM

YourhandMyAss

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It does depend, on the changes, and if they're a load bearing wall, to use that phrase, but people are making it out to be some horrendous how could you if you like them thing, to want to change or see a change made in habbits of the non load bearing wall type, Ie like don't leave dirty socks under the couch, or please don't do things out in public that are offensive to others and embarrasing to me, or any number of non load bearing changes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

I think it really depends. Sometimes changing a behavior may be changing who the person is and other times it may not.

Some of those walls are load bearing and removing them would alter the structure or core of the house. Other walls are there to only divide rooms. The non load bearing walls can be altered, changed or removed and have no negative impact on the structure of the house. However, changing or removing load bearing walls is another matter all together.

Some behaviors are very integral to the core of a person. Altering or removing those behaviors would change who the person is. Other behaviors are not.
Knight's Kyra

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RE: .Erasing flaws. - 1/15/2008 11:24:09 AM

BitaTruble

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

As an s-type, do you alter for you dominant/master should he find something unpleasent and find that acceptable?

If Himself found something about me unpleasant and unacceptable, then he shouldn't have picked me in the first place. I'm completely open to tweaking, but unless change and growth comes from within, it's not going to stick with me. I have to do that work because my nature allows it, not because it's commanded of me. My brain just doesn't work that way.

quote:

Why submit to someone you would want to change?

I don't. When Himself and I got together, he had no signs of diabetis. That's something he developed and you can bet your ass I'd change that if I could because he suffers and it hurts, but even though I joked about instilling in him a toilet cleaning fetish, if that actually happened, I think it would freak me out a bit. ::grins::

quote:

I just have no desire to change Darcy at all. If I did, I would never have considered submitting to him in the first place. I am just confounded by the mentality that you might submit to a person, yet then try to change them.

the.dark.

I think it's one thing to help someone grow, but quite another to actually change them. You can bring out their potential, help them rise above adversity and certainly tweak and train them to suit your needs but I don't see it as any more feasible for a dominant trying to change a submissive as a submissive trying to change a dominant. IMO, your core is your core. Find someone's core who fits with your own, and you won't need to change them anyway.

Celeste

edited to try a font fix!

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RE: .Erasing flaws. - 1/15/2008 11:24:09 AM

YourhandMyAss

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I still love James and it don't change that he bends over backwards for me and I try to do the same for him, But why the how dare you attitude about wanting to see non load bearing wall changes, in things like bad habbits. We see doms asking all the time that bad habbits change, and yet it's incomprehensible that a person on the other side of that want a few changes.

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RE: .Erasing flaws. - 1/15/2008 11:26:24 AM

kyraofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
I don't get the thought that a person might be better without a certain habit? Who gets to make that choice? Who gets to decide?

He gets to decide for us which habits he wants changed and usually it is because it is better for him that we don't have them *g*

Using the toilet seat as an example, I asked if he could try to remember to close it because Loki likes to drink out of it. Whether he does or not will not change our relationship at all. For the first few weeks, I would just follow behind him and do it myself. He is remembering more often now, but I mostly take care of it.

There was a point early in our relationship where I had to decide if I could remain in an open relationship. For months I agonized over that decision and not once asked him to change that aspect. Eventually, I decided that I just wasn't ready for it at the time and I asked to leave the relationship. He made the choice to change that because it was more important to him to have me in his life. However, it was only a temporary change so that I could do the work I needed to do in order to handle that aspect of our relationship. He is away right now and the thought of him meeting someone and playing or having sex with them just doesn't cause any stress for me.

If there were things that needed to change about him in order for me to submit, then I would leave the relationship rather than ask him to change. He would have to be internally motivated to change those things.

Knight's Kyra

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RE: .Erasing flaws. - 1/15/2008 11:28:23 AM

RCdc

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Some of what you have said YHMA to me? Sounds like white knight(or knightess).

If something is detrimental, then the only person who can make themselves better is the person themself. Not any other person. You can suggest it and state your concerns but not make them change or erase them yourself. That is down to the person. Quite frankly, I would not be with a dominant who did not look after themself. Personal choice and standards hey.
And the question was not about detrimental to behaviour to health anyway. That is a different topic.

As for social graces? I wouldn't be with someone who I felt embaressed by - simple as that. I do not settle.

the.dark.

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RE: .Erasing flaws. - 1/15/2008 11:32:47 AM

Tigrita

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If we are talking something like biting your nails, sure, I'd change that for someone, to make myself more pleasant to be around. And I probably wouldn't try to change something like that about them. I wouldn't feel it was my place, and it isn't a big deal, so I'd just live with it. That is just me. If there was something with a good reason behind it, and that didn't change who they are, like Kyra's toilet seat example with the zealous cat, that makes perfect sense. Bigger things, you just can't expect to change a person in my opinion. Things like how they express affection maybe. Some people need X to feel loved, and if the other expresses it by Y, it could be a problem. Maybe they can change their expectations or behaviors, but I would not expect it. This could be a fundamental compatibility issue.

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RE: .Erasing flaws. - 1/15/2008 11:34:54 AM

YourhandMyAss

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Yup I can ask and state and he can decide weather or not he wants to change something or not. I can not say look here stop this cause this sucks, or else.

.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

You can suggest it and state your concerns but not make them change or erase them yourself. That is down to the person. the.dark.

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RE: .Erasing flaws. - 1/15/2008 11:36:31 AM

Justme696

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tigrita

If we are talking something like biting your nails, sure, I'd change that for someone, to make myself more pleasant to be around. And I probably wouldn't try to change something like that about them. I wouldn't feel it was my place, and it isn't a big deal, so I'd just live with it. That is just me. If there was something with a good reason behind it, and that didn't change who they are, like Kyra's toilet seat example with the zealous cat, that makes perfect sense. Bigger things, you just can't expect to change a person in my opinion. Things like how they express affection maybe. Some people need X to feel loved, and if the other expresses it by Y, it could be a problem. Maybe they can change their expectations or behaviors, but I would not expect it. This could be a fundamental compatibility issue.

you made some good points. Also wether you want to change some one or not. Soem flaws make them recoqnizable as your partner.
(btw do you know how hard it is stopping nail biting ;) )

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