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RE: Yob culture. - 1/20/2008 4:12:15 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		The Isle of Man used to have a good deterant, 'The Birch', a bundle of birch twigs that was occaisionally used to thrash hooligans in particular.

Now, the birch is banned and what has happened, well of course crime figures have risen.

Yes, a thrashing might be barbaric in a lot of people's eyes, but the very knowledge of it was good enough deterant.Of course occaisionally it had an outing and was put to use, but this was not common, it ruled by fear.

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/20/2008 5:32:26 PM   
stella41b


Posts: 4258
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: SW London (UK)
Status: offline 		Truncheons? The birch? Corporal punishment? You people all make me laugh.

Oh right. Let me follow your logic. Let's amputate the hands of shoplifters. Sleep with a married man? Okay, let the people of Watford stone you to death with breeze blocks. Let's do the same with homosexuals and other sexual deviants, including those who practise BDSM. How about public hangings and beheadings?

Well people were advocating traditional values and corporal punishment, weren't they? I'm just using the examples of countries like Sudan, Iran, Saudi Arabia.

Traditional values? Okay, so why the hell do we have so many refugees and asylum seekers from these other countries who have 'traditional values'? Why have they come? To escape their own 'civilized' countries?

And people wonder why I'm having problems with the collective mentality found in British society.

Ah but you see, it's okay when it's happening to someone else, or someone else is doing the flogging.. it's this wolly-minded thinking and hypocrisy which has got this country into such a state.

Yob culture has been part of British society ever since the 1950's, and the mods and the rockers and the teddy boys, then you got the hippies, the beatniks, the punks and the cornerboys. It's a normal part of youth culture to rebel and to find one's own identity.

I'm in my 40's, I rebelled as a teenager and I would argue that most other people of my age did. We were subversive, we listened to punk music, heavy metal, real decent music, we wrote in biro on our school bags and blazerz. as did the generation before.

It all changed in 1981 - Southall, Toxteth, Brixton, Chapeltown, Handsworth, Manningham, yes the riots, when Thatcher almost lost power. The police suddenly got new powers, new laws were passed, and the Tories started talking about 'traditional values'. This is the start of consumerism and the neofascism we currently have here in Britain.

I stand by what I write here, I've got a good memory, it isn't selective, and I'm not a hypocrite.

And I wasn't taken for a mug over the past 30 or so years - ( remember what happened to the Liverpool dockers, what happened to Fleet Street journalists and Murdoch's print workers, what happened to the miners, the teachers, the nurses, the doctors, I remember the Poll Tax, the transport workers, and you didn't need a crystal ball or to tell fortunes to see what was coming around. So many things have happened, and there were so many opportunities to stand up and speak out, but no..

.. people were too interested in getting their snouts in the trough and making as much money as they could - the typical 'I'm alright Jack' attitude you find on these islands.

This is why we got the black youth or 'hoodies' who think that being black means flash mobile phones, bling, jeans halfway down your arse, hoods, gangsta rap and knives and guns. They think Pluto Shervington is a planet, don't have no idea who Marcus Garvey is. As for the whites, yob culture has become chav culture.. even hip hop went mainstream, and I'm sorry but cover versions of old hits sung by X Factor contestants just doesn't cut it. Everything has been made commercial, for the masses.... to keep them under control.

I'll tell you why we have crime and it's got nothing to do with the lack of corporal punishment. I mean, let's face it, if you're a parent and you've got to use corporal punishment to keep your children in line you can't be much good at being a parent, can you?

We have crime because there's tremendous pressure on people, especially young people today to fit in, to be 'normal', the peer pressure is unbelievable - do any of you people know how much it costs to keep a teenager nowadays? It's not just the clothes, it's the mobile phone, the iPod, the computer, the travelling expenses, and so on.

Not everybody has that sort of money, not everybody can find work, not everybody can produce a brilliant CV, not everybody got the education they wanted, and we live in this 'must have at all costs' sort of culture. So how many people, especially students, supplement their income from selling and dealing in weed? How many of them have to resort to crime to get what they want? I'm not defending anybody here or making any sort of moral judgments, but as far as I'm aware they haven't started selling magic wands at Tesco's and Sainsbury's.

But yes, let's go with the flow and get tougher, and have stricter laws and more restrictions. Let's all pretend that Britain is really like as they say it's really like in the Daily Mail, the Sun, the Daily Mirror and the rest of the tabloid press.

Let's all point the finger at the individual and make our judgments and blame them, labelling them and stereotyping them because it's much easier and far simpler than facing up to the real issues and collectively thinking and coming up with solutions which actually fit the society we're living in and not one 500 years ago in history.

It didn't work then and it won't work now. How about being more open in your thinking, spending more time with young people, learning to share, and learning to be tolerant and openminded like we were in the not too distant past?

Please feel free to accuse me of being a liberal, but you know, I'd much rather be a liberal than someone who supports totalitarianism as a form of government.

As for a deterrent, you will probably find being able to get a decent job with decent wages a pretty good deterrent against a lot of crime. Too bad that nowadays everything has to make as much profit as possible and so many employers are so prepared to cut costs they're more than happy to employ Eastern European migrant workers for less than the minimum wage, and to cut their own costs these Eastern European migrant workers are sharing bedsits just so they can get the work for less than people living here can afford to accept. It's much less stressful working for the minimum wage when you don't have a mortgage to pay or equivalent housing costs and bills to pay or even a family to feed.

How many of you people are aware that we now have in London British people who have made themselves homeless just so they can afford to take on minimum wage work? Yes, that's right, some of those guys sleeping in shop doorways in The Strand in Central London have jobs to go to. They just arrive for work half an hour earlier and wash themselves in the bathroom, keep everything in left luggage and have sacrificed their housing costs and homes just to get work.

< Message edited by stella41b -- 1/20/2008 5:47:20 PM >

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/20/2008 8:53:38 PM   
FangsNfeet


Posts: 3758
Joined: 12/3/2004
Status: offline 		Hell dude, looks like you wish to bring a new Dacree upon the UK. Turn the UK into a communist state and make your religion the absolute law of the land.

Young peope are desperate for work when attending school are looking at two jobs to make ends meet. Having 24/7 businesses are a blessing for those who need extra hours, shifts, and tips. Curfews and lights out only hamper the economy and a persons amount of time to balance work schedules.

Just live your life your way and let others live there and see who comes out on top. 

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/20/2008 11:27:13 PM   
meatcleaver


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Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I think Britain........the ideology and supremacy of the individual takes precedence over the needs of the community as a whole.



I agree.

England has always been a rough and ready place. Fighting, drinking, gambling, anti-social behaviour etc is nothing out of the ordinary, and if you go back 100 years, you'll find parts of English cities were no-go areas for the police - intrusions into certain areas resulted in the police being assaulted/stabbed etc. This still happens today, when the authorities go into certain areas, they are attacked (it's rare, but it does happen).

Have a read of some accounts of European travellers to England in the 17th and 18th centuries: they were taken by surprise at the level of violence and anti-social behaviour, so there's something in our culture which has been around for a long time.

I'd suggest it's because we've always been fiercely independent. As a nation, we've never really valued public space and society in the same way the French, Germans etc have done; for example, the Germans and Russians have their Fatherland, the French term it patrie, but we've never had an equivalent. I'd suggest that the reason why we have such high levels of anti-social behaviour in England is, in part, underpinned by the same factors which make us arguably the most creative people on this planet: the amount of ideas which come out of England is astounding for a country this size, as is our taste for casual violence.

The conservatives make me laugh. They harp on about "getting back to the old England, with widespread English virtues and morals" - it never existed, except within the four walls of the imagination of dreamers fueled by too many vitamin c drinks.


I have to agree, Britain is an unruley place and always has been which is both its saving grace and its downfall but you can't have everything.

European travellers in the 18th century were also astounded to find women walked the streets alone and were also running businesses. 'Wife selling' which was a misnomer, was also rife. When a man sold his wife, she had already found herself a new partner and the husband had little option but to let her go. Hey, and spanking was known as the English perversion.

There is one thing I would add to the mix, the wealth gap in Britain, (which is extreme and growing), can't help the social wellbeing. In most western European countries the difference between a top paid job and the lowest paid job is about seven times, in Britain top jobs are paid over 30 times more than the bottom jobs.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 1/21/2008 12:05:43 AM >

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/20/2008 11:40:49 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Griswold

Aneirin, you're from the UK....'splain sumpin to me...I'm not trying to be funny...just honestly curious.

How can your cops keep order without a gun?  Or is that just a myth that we've heard over here in America?

It reminds me of that joke Robin Williams made when he was in your country 10 years back or so (okay...now I'm trying to be funny) when he was talking about the Bobby's over there and he said "if you're a criminal....what's to worry about...you steal something, a Bobby comes up and says 'STOP!!!!!.....or I'll say stop again!!!!!'".


There are patrol cars that carry gun squads and there are gun carrying police at airports. However, not carrying a gun has proved to be a good tactic in the past as it means many criminals don't carry guns. You do get your macho men in the police but they aren't as bad as American police who seem to believe they are John Wayne in a Hollywood movie and seem to me, even as a tourist, provocative.

Personally it wouldn't bother me about police carrying guns, I live in Holland where police do. It is all a matter of attitude, the police are low key here, in a similar way that in Britain police tend to be low key, they aren't provocative and that makes for a relationship of respect and cooperation between the police and public. A high profile and provocative police alienate the public which encourages criminals to be more aggressive. If you notice, America has a lot of criminal folk heroes, that says a lot about what the public think about the police, they do not believe, at least subconsciously, the police are on the public's side or at least a significant amount of the public don't. 

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 1/20/2008 11:42:33 PM >

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/21/2008 12:13:46 AM   
UtopianRanger


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quote:

ORIGINAL: christine1

i'm not familiar with what "yob culture" is?


It means, like here in the states....you drive into the wrong neighborhood/street {One I know of in Stockton, Ca} and simulate the number ''13 '' by contorting your hands / fingers in a certain way --- You're in a lota trouble  




- R

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 1/21/2008 12:37:49 AM >

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/21/2008 2:18:37 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Joined: 6/16/2006
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quote:

Stella stating facts
Not everybody has that sort of money, not everybody can find work, not everybody can produce a brilliant CV, not everybody got the education they wanted,( big lols from seeks) and we live in this 'must have at all costs' sort of culture.

quote:

Stella  confounding her own facts
As for a deterrent, you will probably find being able to get a decent job with decent wages a pretty good deterrent against a lot of crime. Who is going to employ people that cant add up and can just about write their name having emerged from our corrupt secondary education system wirh a shed load of qualifictions  ?
 

quote:

Stella's question
Okay, so why the hell do we have so many refugees and asylum seekers etc etc

Answer: because most aint asylum seekers: they expect the UK welfare system to be a soft touch, whether they are right is another matter.
I recently heard it argued that as a consequence of housing laws it is inevitable that "refugees" will get preference for subsidised housing..
You once posted that you went to Poland expecting to get subsidy and appreciation for your theatrical efforts. Didnt you ?

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/21/2008 2:38:13 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Stella yet another rant thats not quite true. British culture has always been much the same. Check the history of London, lets take Battersea park. I used to play there a lot as a kid and yes there were always teddyboys and later mods and rockers hanging about. But you know what, back in 1852 it was called Battersea fields and had a weekly fair. It was such a lawless area that magistrates closed it down. Thats 1852 not 1952 or even 1981 ( nice try at blamming Maggie for everything again. )  As NG has stated on other threads, this behaviour is nothing new.

Nor is consummerism, your friend Marx first coined the term ( I think ) And that really started after ww2 when people righly wanted a better way of life. Advertising took off in a big way with the advent of TV`s in every home...Laughable that you think it started in 1981 Take a peak at the ads from the 50s and 60s.

On the one hand you blame lack of jobs on immigrants working for less momey, this is everybodys fault, including you, we all want cheaper goods, like it or not.  The majority of immigrants come here today due to economic reasons. Stick your head in the sand and deny it but thats the truth as to why so many have moved from Eastern Europe. Now you say the young need jobs, you say the immigrants have a right to come here ( on other threads ) Unfortunately we dont have enough jobs for all...... Which has to give way ?

British people homeless, immigrants needing homes....see above. Theres just not enough to go round. As for British people not being charitable..... Oh please ! Do some research into how much is donated each year.

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/21/2008 2:38:37 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Points I heard made about asylum seekers on the jolly old BBC ( on the programme the Moral Maze)
(q) why do so many asylum seekers abscond from the camps where all their basic needs , food shelter etc are met.
note:They are put in camps so that the legitimacy of their asylum claims can be checked.
(a) because they are "upset" by being in a camp as it reminds them of conditions they have just left.
Seeks says: people who are as naive is this are responsible for the shambles that is UK immigration policy.

Seeks overheard the following
Liberal number 1
Asylum seekers are dirt poor and come to the UK to obtain a better standard of living. Isnt that admirable. Just the kind of people we need.
Liberal number 2
Asylum seekers pay criminal gangs many thousands of pounds to get stuffed in lorries and be transported long distances across Europe. Isnt that awful ? Must set up a government quango costing a few million pounds to investigate and in the fullness of time issue a report. unstated: which nobody will read.
Seeks says: isnt that contradictary  and basically welfare to the upper middle classes ?


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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Yob culture. - 1/21/2008 4:26:06 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		This is Darcy

The big problem that I see with England today is that the vast majority of the 'yobs' simply do not have any respect for their fellow human beings, nor for the laws of the land. I'm not going to lay the blame for this at the feet of any particular government, as for as long as I've been politically aware (some three decades now) the powers given to the police to combat 'yobbish' behaviour have been systematically neutered whichever party has been in power, and the sentences and punishments handed out simply don't act as large enough deterrents.

Both the Tories and Labour have always talked good games when it comes to law and order, but neither of them has delivered (particularly in the case of Labour, who I make no secret of considering to be a useless, self-serving government built on lies, spin and self-interest, and their utter failure to deliver on their "tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime" rhetoric that helped them to swindle their way into power).

I personally don't think 24 hour drinking is necessarily a bad thing. Indeed, as an adult I welcome the opportunity to choose when I want to frequent a pub, but sadly the one thing missing from today's youth, raised on cheap alcopops, and two-for-one deals, is any sense of self-respect or accountability for their actions.

When I was younger and regularly going out drinking in Nottingham, there were still those who couldn't take their drink, still the occasional fight, the broken bottles and vomit on the ground in dark alleyways, so I don't think that anything has changed much thanks to 24 hour drinking (although statistics have shown a sharp increase in drink-related crime over the period that it has been in place, but I think this is just because it's incresingly focused on by the media as the current 'buzz' story.

What does concern me is the strain that this increase is putting on our police and health services. I personally don't care if someone wants to go and and drink themselves into oblivion, that's their choice, but I think that people should be made much more accountable. If you end up in the hospital due to having drunk far too much, then in my view you should be charged for the time that you've wasted with medical staff who could have been looking after someone who isn't there through choice. I don't see why I, as a taxpayer, should pay for your inability to handle your drink. If you can't behave like an adult, then perhaps you shouldn't be engaging in adult activities.

Harsh? Perhaps, but if I can drink sensibly then why can't you? Where's the pleasure in drinking yourself to oblivion each and every weekend? If that's all that life has to offer you, then really, what is the point of your existence?

I don't want to see a nanny state, not in the least, but unfortunately that's what's going to happen if these idiots who can't handle their drink and end up wasting police and medical resources don't learn some accountability.

Thankfully, occasionally the courts here do hand out punishments that while not sending messages to the majority of the 'yobs' out there due to their lack of interest in any media output that taxes their brains beyond Big Brother, does at least ensure that a few of these idiots who commit anti-social crimes whilst under the influence of drink and drugs do get what's coming to them. The three teenagers who kicked Garry Newlove to death last August after he was forced to try and deal with their repeated harrassment after the police ignored his complaints have been sent to prison where, as harsh as it may seem, I personally hope they suffer every day. Call me cold, or a monster, but the thought of the tables being turned, and of them having the crap kicked out of them every single days of their incarceration gives me a little satisfaction. Not so funny when the boot's on the other foot, so to speak, is it boys?

While I do blame the likes of them for their actions, we as a nation need to look at the causes of this behaviour - absent fathers, below standard education, little desire to work when the state will keep them in beer money. I have no quick solutions as to how to tackle these deep seated problems, though I think we must, otherwise our society will continue to crumble around us.

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/21/2008 4:29:16 AM   
ladyeleanor


Posts: 10
Joined: 11/9/2007
Status: offline 		OP, in what way would curfews solve any of our problems? From what I can see curfews would only serve to piss people off even more. It is always the same in this country, people seem to think you can legislate problems away instead of actually dealing with them. Its like having a wasp nest above your head but choosing to swat each individual wasp as it flys at you. It is true that there is a disenfranchised youth presence in Britain and they are certainly being written about in the papers, but instead of making children into criminals we need to look perhaps a little closer to home and find out what WE are doing to create such individuals.

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/21/2008 4:59:38 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
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quote:

LadyEleanor It is true that there is a disenfranchised youth presence in Britain and they are certainly being written about in the papers, but instead of making children into criminals we need to look perhaps a little closer to home and find out what WE are doing to create such individuals
.

Eh? who are the WE?
The serious career yobbo usually starts around 10/12 years of age and is then, if caught, a big IF,  mollycoddled by our useless judicial system until they reach 18 or so. All this time they are laughing their socks off and generally having a "good" time making others miserable.

I dont care why people behave like this. I want it minimised and I know how to do it. lol
Current methods, in use for about 30 years, have made things worse.

Hard labour sentencing backed by corporal punishment.
The corporal punishment only applied when the "tuff guys" refuse to do the hard labour, most probably 'cos they think it violates their human rights.

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Yob culture. - 1/21/2008 5:13:10 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		Awwww seeks.... corporal punishments? 
I have to smile a wry smile when I see that and curfews listed as good ideas for repremand on a BDSM website.
 
I am not a big believer in giving pain as a pleasure principle.  However I am big on the idea that people who break the law for 'yob behaviour' should not be given asbos or birching.  But I am big on it becoming compulsory to do a form of national service.  Hard work, training and being taught how to control their behaviour would all be a good thing.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/21/2008 5:43:06 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Joined: 6/16/2006
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quote:

  the Dark
Awwww seeks.... corporal punishments? 
I have to smile a wry smile when I see that and curfews listed as good ideas for repremand on a BDSM website.


Lol Dark first I cant get rid of this bold type and second if the "little sweethearts" showed any signs of enjoying the punishment then it would be stopped and I would try a gag and a bit of bondage instead.
If they enjoyed that then I admit my methods have failed.
I know I would make them take the lead in Stella's play....Death... and sing the part in a soprano voice in front of their mates.

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Yob culture. - 1/21/2008 6:19:01 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		How would you force them to do national service... without using any force


quote:

I am not a big believer in giving pain as a pleasure principle. However I am big on the idea that people who break the law for 'yob behaviour' should not be given asbos or birching. But I am big on it becoming compulsory to do a form of national service. Hard work, training and being taught how to control their behaviour would all be a good thing.


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RE: Yob culture. - 1/21/2008 6:22:19 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		How do you 'force' someone to go to prison.
Oh, that's right - let them break the law.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/21/2008 6:52:56 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		This is Darcy

Unlike the.dark (who is far more compassionate than I ) I am all for corporal punishment. Slaps on the wrist and ASBOs clearly don't work for the majority of these little bastards, but once you've been thrashed to within an in ch of your life a couple of times and put on display in the stocks (complete with facility for the drunken yobs to use you as their public facilities) then I'm guessing that you might think twice before breaking the law again.

Failing that, I'm with the.dark on the national service thing. We're desperately short of soldiers, so why not whip these twattocks into shape with a bit of good old fashioned army discipline (too tough, my little yob friend? boo fucking hoo) and send 'em to the front lines in Iraq or Afghanistan. If they turn out to be useful (at last) to their country, then great, but if they get taken out by enemy fire then, meh, who's gonna miss 'em? Not me.

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Yob culture. - 1/21/2008 1:20:44 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Hey, and spanking was known as the English perversion.



le vice anglais - whipping.

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/21/2008 1:42:20 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		That referred to upper class twits who were either having their arse spanked by Nanny  or Mr Chips or buggering Julian Perigrine and occasionally doing both at the same time.

Thats when Brit. education was the envy of the world.

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Yob culture. - 1/21/2008 6:59:50 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		Trouble is with National service, which btw, I am in favour of, there would be too much focus on the little darlings human rights such is our politically correct society.

I know ex squaddies who left the forces, saying it had changed,changed in that the younger lot comming in were different. To quote the words of a particular ex career squaddie, the new lot were 'soft', instead of taking shit, they ran to a senior officer to complain. And what is worse, the management came down upon the shit givers.

Something has changed countrywide,could it be too much concern for political correctness and an individual's human rights as not to be shouted at or reprimanded in any way? Are we too fluffy?

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Profile   Post #: 40
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