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RE: Yob culture. - 1/21/2008 7:35:50 PM   
Sanity


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So you would have no differences between national service and prison then?

Why not just keep calling it prison, if that's the case.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

How do you 'force' someone to go to prison.
Oh, that's right - let them break the law.
 
the.dark.


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RE: Yob culture. - 1/22/2008 2:21:32 AM   
stella41b


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I stand by my opinions previously..

Politesub53, I wasn't generalizing but seeing what I see going on around me. Yes, I agree that the British are charitable, and not only, this is a very open, tolerant, accommodating society we live in.

Do we need to go into the debate over Thatcher again? Okay, let's call it 'yuppie culture' the profit at all costs, even if it means stabbing people in the back and all this preoccupation with image and consumer goods. Unfortunately this way of thinking is still prevalent among people, especially in the media and government, but you will probably find that people have moved on.

I still say one of the major reasons for this 'yob culture' is the lack of definite English culture. We have always had yobs, right from the 1950's and 1960's and anti-social behaviour among young people, doesn't matter whether it was the mods and rockers, soccer hooligans, but there was a stronger sense of community before, there were cultures and subcultures and it was always a sort of right of passage especially for young people to rebel and test authority - but not like it is today. Today there's no sense of community and this is the point I was trying to make. Without that sense of community all the peer pressure and social pressure not to overstep the boundaries has gone.

Now like before you can blame parents or you can blame teachers, but I strongly feel that the media itself needs to take some of the responsibility for this yob culture - we've got this dominant 'celebrity culture' and wherever you look you've got gossip columnists reporting on the excesses of these so-called celebrities, half of whom I for one can't figure out how or why they became famous and what is it that they're reporting? It's not who's doing what but it's rather who's been sleeping with who, who's been at which party, taking what drugs, who's wearing what clothes, and you know, there's a lot of young people out there who take notice of this, and it in my opinion sends out the wrong message. These are the role models that our society has for young people, this is the message our media is giving out, and therefore it's not really surprising to me that we have yob culture the way it is at the moment.

This isn't anything new by the way.. wasn't it The Who who were smashing up instruments on stage in the 1960's, and you can go through a whole load of deaths in the 1960's which were drug related - Jimi Hendrix, Lenny Bruce, Jim Morrison, and so on. But the reasons behind this drug culture was different, it was part of the music scene, and some decent music came out of it. Music that people still listen to and remember.

I wouldn't want to see judicial corporal punishment introduced into this country, it's only traditional in my opinion for countries like Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Iran, and there's a great move away from these barbaric forms of punishment, which is a good thing. Even the United States is moving away from the death penalty and so far this year there have only been a handful of executions scheduled, most of which have been stayed. Prison isn't a solution because our prisons are already full to overflowing and we send more people to prison than any other European Union member state. We've even got remand prisoners being held in police cells. I also don't agree with National Service, as we have 'career' armed forces of which only the very best young people in this country can get into, and you think people are going to accept yobs going into our armed forces? They don't have the resources or the manpower to deal with such people. Let us not forget that apart from their peacekeeping role our armed forces are very active within the European Union training the new German armed forces and the Polish armed forces together with the Dutch and US armed forces and this also costs money.

So okay, you're the Home Secretary - what do you do? If you introduce corporal punishment you're going to have all the human rights organisations come down on you, and also face condemnation from the European Union which I do believe outlaws the introduction of such barbaric punishments, they won't even allow the death penalty which Bulgaria had to abolish and which has caused a moratorium in the Ukraine, which is hoping to join the European Union along with Turkey in the not too distant future. Tougher prison sentences? Where? Try and find a prison with spare beds first.

I am actually in agreement here with most people, we do need to tackle the problem and we need to get tough. I would propose chain gangs, labour camps and much stiffer fines and I think the Polish idea of removing all public rights is a good idea - a period where you are not allowed to vote and have no recourse to public funds, no benefits, no NHS unless for emergency treatment, nothing, you're on your own. I would even go so far as to suggest involuntary insolvency, too bad if they've got a mortgage or are paying for things on credit. Might make some of them think and learn respect for others pretty damn quick.

Oh and by the way seeks I'm not demanding public funding for my artistic work. I develop a project and then get funding for it, it's a bit like business, and at the moment I'm developing a project on Broadwater Farm, which is also the other solution I am suggesting. Yob culture is just one of the social issues I'm working against in my work. So far my theatre doesn't receive any funding, it's purely bums on seats, why not come down and see for yourself?

This project I'm developing is to work with young adults in a deprived area of London, and it's a bit like National Service. There isn't anything like 'celebrity culture' anywhere near my projects, just workshops, training and quite a lot of hard work. I don't drink and I don't use drugs, and I don't tolerate it on any of my projects, nor do I tolerate any sort of anti-social behaviour. Young people have a need to be valued, recognized, they want their 15 minutes of fame like everyone else, and this is what I offer but it comes at a price - they get the training and workshops, they have to do the work, and they have to work hard, they also have to face up to their issues, learn to interact with other people on the workshops, find better ways of expressing themselves and learn self-discipline. One whiff of weed or alcohol and they're out the door and they don't come back. I've been doing these workshops for the past year or so with the homeless, hardened crack addicts, ex-offenders, prostitutes, alcoholics, and they've been very successful. From the group of 14 people I was working with including four on crack and five with drink problems only one still has a drink problem, and twelve have been resettled and eleven are either in full time employment or full time education. This was achieved in a six month period, this is what I do, and this is why I get funding. The funding I get, I can assure you, isn't a lot, but it enables me to deliver results.

It's what's becoming known as TIC - theatre in the community - and this is also why I advocate the setting up of such projects for these "yobs" - to give them meaningful occupation and get them to work towards something which they can be a part of and be proud of being involved in. Setting up such projects may require a little funding, but it costs the taxpayer far less than building new prisons, far less than National Service, and I guess you'll agree it's rather more civilized and effective than birching these yobs. Violence only begets violence, and you won't change the behaviour of these people unless you change their attitudes and mindset. Discipline is extremely important in theatre, just as important as it is in the military, these people receive the same training as drama students but its much more intense, peer pressure is intense, and they have to meet the challenge of finding positive, creative ways of expressing themselves and working with others.

And you never know, if more of these projects were set up in both culture and sport we might end up with decent music to listen to, a decent football team, rugby team, cricket team, and there might be something actually worth watching on television.

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/22/2008 5:42:46 AM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Trouble is with National service, which btw, I am in favour of, there would be too much focus on the little darlings human rights such is our politically correct society.



I think the bigger problem with National Service - as it used to be at least, is that the forces have absolutely no use for it. My uncle got sent off in ships all over the then Empire for his service in the 50s- simply because it kept him and the thousands of other pressed young men out of the damned way for a while as the army had no use for them. They were landed at several conflict zones where the locals were fighting for independence, but never so much as saw a rifle, at a time when more bodies in the fight would have likely been handy for us.

And the problem would be more acute now when we have far more advanced weapons systems et al which require a higher degree of training to operate - training which takes time and money to provide and would therefore be a waste to expend on conscripts who were (a) disinterested, and (b) leaving in a short time. the only branch of the service that would benefit might be the MPs who would require a lot more funding to chase all the AWOLs.

And on top of all this, we are talking about a fairly small minority of troubled and troublemaking kids in all this. Do we really want them to be trained in the proficient use of small arms or even to be in proximity to them?

The world and the art of war has changed too much from the days of shipping off our prisoners to fight for the Empire, for conscription and the like to have any real benefit. We no longer need cannon fodder, but highly trained and well motivated troops.

And whilst we must do more to counter the symptoms of the malaise in our country, we should not forget that they are symptoms - it is the disease we must tackle.

E

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/22/2008 11:26:04 AM   
Aneirin


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There is always a requirement for cheap land mine detection.

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/22/2008 11:28:48 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
Something has changed countrywide,could it be too much concern for political correctness and an individual's human rights as not to be shouted at or reprimanded in any way? Are we too fluffy?


If you think that there is more or worse yob culture today than there was 20 years ago - or 50 years ago... then yes.
You are too fluffy.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/22/2008 11:30:23 AM   
RCdc


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That wasn't the original statement.
You spoke about force.
No one else did.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/22/2008 11:34:26 AM   
Aneirin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark


You are too fluffy.




?


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RE: Yob culture. - 1/22/2008 11:41:57 AM   
RCdc


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You asked if something had changed countrywide, whether there was too much concern etc... and if that meant people were too fluffy - I believe this is one reason why you hear the whole bemoaning of yob culture.
People have become too fluffy.
 
People are pandered to.  People want life easy.  They want shit done for them. 
So if there are people yelling in the street, they want it removed.  They expect it done for them. 
 
People who see and believe there is more badies in the world than there used to be are fluffy.
 
the.dark.


< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 1/22/2008 11:43:10 AM >


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RE: Yob culture. - 1/22/2008 12:06:54 PM   
lablancsecret


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I think you are over exagerating...just a bit.

From what I've seen of the NRA, they support the right of citizens to bear arms and responsible gun ownership.

If you don't agree with their stances on prohibitive gun ownership laws, thats fine by me. But it is awfully unfair to make it sound like they want gangsters to have guns.

They want the gangster's possible victims to own legally purchased fire arms to protect themselves.


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RE: Yob culture. - 1/22/2008 12:14:14 PM   
lablancsecret


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EDIT: Never mind... someone already said it.


< Message edited by lablancsecret -- 1/22/2008 12:16:47 PM >


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RE: Yob culture. - 1/22/2008 12:24:55 PM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

And on top of all this, we are talking about a fairly small minority of troubled and troublemaking kids in all this. Do we really want them to be trained in the proficient use of small arms or even to be in proximity to them?

The world and the art of war has changed too much from the days of shipping off our prisoners to fight for the Empire, for conscription and the like to have any real benefit. We no longer need cannon fodder, but highly trained and well motivated troops.

And whilst we must do more to counter the symptoms of the malaise in our country, we should not forget that they are symptoms - it is the disease we must tackle.

E


I wanted to point out that I never said I believed that troubled youths and the like should do national service.  I said that I did believe that they should do a form of national service.
 
Many youths are without focus or goals.  I am not really of the idea of chucking them into prison, to mix with people who could be a negative influence in their life and then leave with nothing.  No self respect.  No training.  Just a pat on the back if they did good behaviour and get to leave a bit earlier.
 
Army(for the sake of ease, but I do also include the other forces - including fire services) training can do a hell of a lot for some of these youths.  They could even leave with a trade or an idea of what they can now do.  Consistancy and firm control, and maybe some really hard work in an area where they could be faced with actual poverty, could put their lives in perspective.
 
I have seen it done elsewhere and I can see the advantages of something similar.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/22/2008 1:35:41 PM   
Aneirin


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Good point.

I do agree there is little of interest to bored individuals, maybe why they act the way they do, for sheer boredom,there is no challege in life, no risk, just the drudgery of what job they can get if any.

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/22/2008 1:57:15 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Trouble is with National service, which btw, I am in favour of, there would be too much focus on the little darlings human rights such is our politically correct society.



What has opposing National Service got to do with political correctness?

I think we worked out in the 13th century that a man has a right to enter the employment of his choice: rather than your choice.

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/22/2008 2:00:27 PM   
NorthernGent


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The people of England are never so happy as when you tell them they are ruined.
 
Arthur Murray, The Upholsterer, 1758.

Old habits die hard, eh.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 1/22/2008 2:01:51 PM >


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RE: Yob culture. - 1/22/2008 2:07:00 PM   
seeksfemslave


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http://www.civitas.org.uk/data/twoCountries.php
quote:

Give 'em the facts Barney
From 1981 to 1995 (1994 for the USA), an offender's risk of being caught, convicted, and sentenced to custody increased in the United States for all six crimes in the study (murder, rape, robbery, assault, burglary, and motor vehicle theft) but fell in England and Wales for all except murder.
.

quote:

Oh dear Oh dear Oh dear
What happened to the crime rate during this period? According to the 1995 victim surveys, rates of robbery, assault, burglary, and motor vehicle theft were all higher in England and Wales than the United States. 
 

quote:

Stella wants to put the bastards on the stage
The Government has set out to reduce crime, but the evidence from a study comparing the policies pursued in the USA with those in England and Wales suggests it has adopted the wrong policies. From the early 1980s until the mid-1990s the risk of imprisonment increased in the USA and the crime rate fell; while in England and Wales the opposite happened: the risk of imprisonment fell and the crime rate increased.


This is what happens when the PC brigade have influence.
!!THINGS GET WORSE!!

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/22/2008 2:46:57 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


I think we worked out in the 13th century that a man has a right to enter the employment of his choice: rather than your choice.


Nothing like tradition eh NG  

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/22/2008 2:57:38 PM   
seeksfemslave


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Politesub: he he he he he. dont expect consistency from you know who he he he he he he he

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/22/2008 3:48:45 PM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

I think we worked out in the 13th century that a man has a right to enter the employment of his choice: rather than your choice.


And that is one of the problems we have, in that social benefits offer a far better form of "employment" than the jobs available to a significant proportion, and given the choice, no one would be so foolish as to work all week for less income than one could obtain from doing nothing.

Which then leads on to the point which thedark mentioned - that we have bred generations of people with no aspiration, no self respect (and hence no respect for anyone) and no sense of disciplined life or behaviour.

Again though, there is no point in forcing people to do jobs to which they have no commitment, and equally no point in trying to get people to do jobs in which they have no interest or lack the capacity to qualify for. This is where the Tories' latest wheeze of forcing the long term claimant to do community work falls down - athough on the face of it, it isnt a bad idea. Where it might work is where instead of a stick for not doing the job, we offered a carrot - additional payment over and above social benefits, for doing the job - but that would require an entire overhaul of our entire benefits and taxation system which would require a very brave and capable leader to get done.

E

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/22/2008 7:36:52 PM   
Vendaval


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Quick question - What is an "asbos"?
 
I like the idea of a national service as a choice to young people along with the armed services.  A national service offers a good opportunity for both employment training and the learning of life skills.  And it could be an attractive alternative for the pacifists who would not want a military career.
 
Not sure how many youths enlist in the military in the UK?
Do you have a standing army, navy, air force, etc?

 
Regards,
 
Vendaval



quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
 
I am not a big believer in giving pain as a pleasure principle.  However I am big on the idea that people who break the law for 'yob behaviour' should not be given asbos or birching.  But I am big on it becoming compulsory to do a form of national service. 

Hard work, training and being taught how to control their behaviour would all be a good thing.
 
the.dark.


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RE: Yob culture. - 1/23/2008 1:38:33 AM   
LadyEllen


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Hi V

an ASBO is an "Anti Social Behaviour Order" which puts written limits on the behaviour and movements of an offender deemed guilty of anti social behaviour. It was a good gimmick when brought in to control our unruly youth, but has since degenerated into a badge of honour system whereby to be cool in certain groups, one has to have an ASBO - at least one. In theory, there are harsher penalties for breaching an ASBO, but in practice - given that we have adequate laws already for everything that could be described as anti social behaviour, nothing much occurs upon breach because we dont have the facilities to provide the penalties for breach - which are the penalties for the former offences being covered by ASBOs now. In reality, the ASBO is there to try to limit expenditure on providing the original penalties for such offences (drunk and disorderly, common assault etc), or to use the official speak, "to not criminalise young people".

And as I understand, there is also the word CHAV, which I am told refers to "Council House ASBO Violators" (a council house is social housing), but I think this must be incorrect since I'm sure I heard CHAV well before I heard ASBO. It would also be a misnomer, since there are few council houses left in the country since Thatcher authorised their sale in the early 80s and a good proportion of offenders must come from owner occupied dwellings. The point though I suppose is to push the identity and problem onto the lowest socio-economic classes - which is where most of the ASBO kids are from, but then what do we expect of them when we threw their parents away and never showed any aspiration for them?

E

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