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RE: Yob culture. - 1/24/2008 6:37:00 AM   
Aneirin


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From: Tamaris
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quote:





And before that gets read into, I'm not suggesting that some people are like dogs or any other non human animal, or should be regarded or treated as such, I'm not suggesting anyone should be beaten or that biting others is acceptable.

E


Paranoid?

No, I understand what you mean and accept the way you say it as a simpler version to writing your exact thoughts.But, words and there their sentances, to say what you mean have to be constructed carefully as not to be misconstrued as to mean something else beyond the original thought. Written language can be tricky sometimes, something a skilled wordsmith can use to their advantage.


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RE: Yob culture. - 1/24/2008 7:08:43 AM   
stella41b


Posts: 4258
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: SW London (UK)
Status: offline 		I've been following this thread, but I don't know, but there's something I don't understand here.

What has yob culture and anti-social behaviour got to do with someone's income, or what they do (or don't do) for a living?

Here we go again, with this 'it must be people on benefits because they don't work and get up to no good'. This is what I just don't understand about people - how they can believe what they read in the media and regurgitate it verbatim as their own opinions.

But there again I live in London, not outside London, and I can only form my opinion from what I see going on in London. However I fail to see any logical connection between the way someone behaves in society and where they get their income from.

Now you can either agree with me or not, most of you won't anyway, but who is this thread actually about? I'm not prepared to generalize like some of you, but I can develop a character of who I believe to be a yob.

A yob to me is a second generation 'yuppie', raised by someone of my generation who was a yuppie, and aso we're talking about someone who works, usually in an office or a well paid job, often wears a suit or a collar and tie to work, and appears respectable to the rest of society. But here we're talking about someone who respects money, material things, but who has little or no respect for other people.

This is someone brought up by permissive parents who put career before family, and so there's no discipline, no basic awareness of common decency or socially acceptable norms, and someone who most probably didn't get a job on merit but through who they or their parents knew.

These are the idiots you deal with in banks, customer service, in retail, in banks, in finance, and anywhere else where you find an office. They don't only lack a basic awareness of proper manners, they also lack a basic awareness of their own native language, some of them can't spell, quite a lot of them can't speak English properly, for some of them textspeak is modern English, and they have difficulties comprehending anything which doesn't directly relate to them. They are usually employed, have good jobs, they are unable to survive on benefits and wouldn't last longer than a few weeks in business in today's conditions.

Please note that I'm not generalising about office workers, merely writing about yobs who work alongside other office workers. They do less work than their colleagues, they spend their time at work surfing the Internet, sending e-mails, writing blogs and on messageboards, browsing MySpace, Facebook, etc for 'fuck buddies' and 'friends with benefits' (to American readers this doesn't mean friends on welfare, but friends you fuck) as most either have problems with their own sexual orientation (quite a lot of closet gays and trannies) or with relationships with the opposite sex. They tend to be extreme right wing in their views, fascist even, and openly hate benefit claimants, single mothers, Pakis, Eastern Europeans, gays, lesbians, transgendered, asylum seekers, basically anyone who isn't like them.

This explains why, despite increases in ticket prices, all seater stadiums and severe restrictions relating to admission and tickets we still have soccer hooligans. If you don't believe me try taking a walk through the Square Mile on a Friday evening, or anywhere in Central London. This is where it all kicks off.

I'm writing some of this from personal experience. The theatre I'm developing has found a home in a pub which has just got rid of its yob element, having been forced by local residents and Wandsworth Council. We've had six months of loud cheesy music and shouting every Friday night and Saturday night into the early hours of the morning. I live behind the pub, our recycling bin served as a public toilet, and finding a human turd in a corner of our courtyard or even between parked cars has happened. I got transphobic abuse, my neighbours suffered quite a bit of racist abuse.

A lot of these people work in the media, in fact television is full of them (I make no apologies for saying this either). This is why you get Big Brother and reality TV. You can also try the tabloid press. Don't take my word for it, go buy any tabloid paper on any day and read through the articles and stories and you will find the similar opinions to those above - a daily invective against benefit claimants, paedophiles, the government, single mothers, asylum seekers, and of course whos' sleeping with who and why and what parties were attended by who.

Don't be surprised to find David Cameron is going to be our next PM as he's rather popular among these yob types. This is because these yobs have no recollection of Thatcherism, and thanks to their dim-witted parents people like Thatcher, Tebbit and John Major are revered and held in high esteem.

Blair has tried and failed, and Gordon Brown's cabinet also have a major problem with this culture. Britain's prisons are overcrowded. Fining these yobs doesn't work, they can afford it. Community service might work if magistrates had the balls to sentence them, but the big problem is that the police can't catch them. Why? Because the police are never around when they kick off, and if they are these yobs can easily afford a decent defence barrister who gets them off. Their strength lies in the fact that (1) they mingle effectively with the rest of the population and (2) they've got everybody or the majority blaming other people such as benefit claimants, asylum seekers and even now Eastern European migrant workers. I can assure everyone here that yob culture is not a part of Eastern European culture. So what now?

I know what I would do. If I were Home Secertary I would set up an agency known as VAL - Voluntary Agricultural Labour - and offer impoverished farmers in the Eastern European member states such as Poland, Romania, and Bulgaria free farmhands and agricultural labour. Then when Mister Yobbo kicks off in the High Street on a Friday evening, he gets arrested, up before the magistrate on the Monday and on Tuesday gets a free 10 year working holiday in Bulgaria or eastern Poland - transportation combined with hard labour. Let Mister Yobbo do some proper work for a change on a farm with traditional implements in a foreign country where he's got to learn the language and assimilate to survive, and leave the rest of us in Britain to continue living without having to deal with these yob elements. Jobs vacated by these yobs can be soon filled by decent folk who will appreciate the work, such as ,... benefit claimants.

Of course I'm not being entirely serious, even though I do feel that this is the solution. If foreigners who can't live in our society get deported, then I feel it's about time we sent some of our own folk who can't live properly in our society packing too. Let them go do community service somewhere else in the world such as Africa and fight world poverty.

I think it's high time that people in Britain made a choice - they either find their backbone and patriotism and stand up to these yobs, or we can look the other way and allow them to get away with it and also allow the authorities to build a totalitarian regime all around us which will restrict us all. Considering that we're not even 70 years after a world war to fight totalitarianism and we are aware that half of Europe has just spent sixty years fighting totalitarianism this is hardly a step forward now, or is it?

Fear and hostility aren't part of a free and democratic society, or they shouldn't be. Tolerance, civility and community are the very basic traditions of British society.

I am not a fan of Margaret Thatcher as people here probably know, many of our current problems come from her time in government, but I'd like to make two points. Firstly, she came into office and served her country with good intentions and secondly, just like Ken Livingstone, she stood by her principles and she had courage to stand up to people. This is what I feel is the solution - we must do likewise and stand up to these yobs and not allow them to cause this country to become yet one more totalitarian state.

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/24/2008 7:23:53 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

I've been following this thread, but I don't know, but there's something I don't understand here.

What has yob culture and anti-social behaviour got to do with someone's income, or what they do (or don't do) for a living?


I wish I knew stella.  As I said, most of the yobbish or as I prefere to describe it, antisocial behaviour I have encountered (yob denotes a visual generalisation that is usually asbos, burbury and big dogs - which is often not the case) comes from those who have never had to struggle in their life.

quote:

Here we go again, with this 'it must be people on benefits because they don't work and get up to no good'. This is what I just don't understand about people - how they can believe what they read in the media and regurgitate it verbatim as their own opinions.


Again, I wish I knew why people soak up such media hype and then bemoan when the hype is used against them.
 
I pretty much enjoyed and agree with the rest of the post.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/24/2008 7:33:31 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		It is possible that we all define yobs as something different, some see them as unemployed, others see them as employed, some see them as skint and with nothing to do except terrorise others etc etc. What would be a good thing is first to define what a yob is and then look for a cause. I do not accept the stereotype idea.

If it came to myself being permitted to suggest as how to deal with the 'culture', myself being in such a position of 'power', I would go and find the yob of the various cultures, and give them their say, offer the lower end of society a voice where they will be listened to, in parliament, not a representative elected, but the person themselves if they have a grief, then they should have the right to air it, in their own words as an individual.

Maybe it is that what parliament is, full of suits and ancient traditions, people feel they have no place, never mind a say.

Traditions are good,but if they are a bar to people, they should be relaxed or removed.

I do not know what all this says of my politics, as I do not follow a particular grain, only what I feel to be right. The various parties and their aims, are much to me like BDSM, comprised of labels and labels define a person in anothers eyes.

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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/24/2008 8:16:36 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		A yob is one whose general attitude and behaviours indicate a rejection of societal norms with regard to what is appropriate social behaviour - in terms of manners as well as criminal acts. My view is that such rejection is the direct result of being rejected - or at least perceiving to have been, rejected by the society. Those who are not members of the club, do not after all have any obligation to follow the rules of the club.

My further view is that the feeling or actuality of being rejected by society is to no small extent tied in to exclusion from the workplace and thus the ability to take part in society according to the rules. Such exclusion is in turn the result of the political and economic choices we as a country have made over the last several decades to produce a certain type of economy and state in favour of other models. This exclusion has also hindered any possibility to realise aspiration and build a steady life for a significant proportion of the population.

These political and economic choices are also responsible for a wider attitude to be found all over in the consumer culture and in the "fuck em all" "winner takes all" morality to be found from boardroom to shop floor. An attitude which says that how one wins is unimportant next to the winning, an attitude which permeates the whole of society with an "I'm alright Jack" mentality. Thus it is that we can have yobs in the workplace too - rejecting any notion of societal responsibilities and ethical behaviour whenever they get in the way, and the accompanying tendency for employees to have no loyalty whatsoever to their employers and to do the minimum required - after all, they could be terminated this very afternoon, regardless of what they put in, and this uncertainty does not add to the ability to realise aspiration and build a life, except on a short term horizon. Employees are rejectable at any moment, and they know it and react accordingly. No future? Then why bother?

E

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/24/2008 1:43:40 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Lets be serious here. Yobs are just as likely to be in good jobs as they are claiming benefits. To say they all come from Yuppie families is as equally untrue as saying they all live on benefits. The media, and lack of family values plays a part, yet some of these kids come from good homes with parents in respected jobs. There is no one answer as to why this happens and its pointless trying to pin the blame on any one group.

Talking of a totalitarian state, when do we get the referendum on the EU.. i dont see the "Imallrightjack " culture down where i live either. i didnt see much of it when i lived in London. People are scared to get involved due to the way policing is done, when a householder shouting at some kids damaging his property is just as likely to be arrested as the kids.

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/24/2008 2:10:01 PM   
stella41b


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Joined: 10/16/2007
From: SW London (UK)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

A yob is one whose general attitude and behaviours indicate a rejection of societal norms with regard to what is appropriate social behaviour - in terms of manners as well as criminal acts. My view is that such rejection is the direct result of being rejected - or at least perceiving to have been, rejected by the society. Those who are not members of the club, do not after all have any obligation to follow the rules of the club.

My further view is that the feeling or actuality of being rejected by society is to no small extent tied in to exclusion from the workplace and thus the ability to take part in society according to the rules. Such exclusion is in turn the result of the political and economic choices we as a country have made over the last several decades to produce a certain type of economy and state in favour of other models. This exclusion has also hindered any possibility to realise aspiration and build a steady life for a significant proportion of the population.

These political and economic choices are also responsible for a wider attitude to be found all over in the consumer culture and in the "fuck em all" "winner takes all" morality to be found from boardroom to shop floor. An attitude which says that how one wins is unimportant next to the winning, an attitude which permeates the whole of society with an "I'm alright Jack" mentality. Thus it is that we can have yobs in the workplace too - rejecting any notion of societal responsibilities and ethical behaviour whenever they get in the way, and the accompanying tendency for employees to have no loyalty whatsoever to their employers and to do the minimum required - after all, they could be terminated this very afternoon, regardless of what they put in, and this uncertainty does not add to the ability to realise aspiration and build a life, except on a short term horizon. Employees are rejectable at any moment, and they know it and react accordingly. No future? Then why bother?

E


Exactly.

This is Britain, so what are our social norms? Our social norms are tolerance, acceptance of others and a sense of community. It is this unity which brought us together to prevent the Nazi jackboot from touching our soil, and our taking of people at face value which has helped us in the past and won us the respect and admiration of people all over the world. We are different, we tolerate eccentricity, but we are, at the end of the day a united people in a united society.

However this is what has been slowly and gradually eroded over many years and it happened unfortunately during the Thatcher governments during the 1980's and has continued ever since - this desire for profits at all costs, this 'I'm alright Jack attitude', and this unhealthy competing with each other which we have been conditioned to do ever since the 1980's.

We are in this position because we trusted two brilliant politicians - Margaret Thatcher and Tony Blair - and we trusted them to lead us through an uncertain future with rapid advances in technology and periods of social transition and transformation. Both these politicians had good intentions when they took power.. however unfortunately the people they shared power with who were behind them didn't. Today there is no Thatcher and there is no Blair, but those people behind them remain very much in power, and be sure that these won't be the people paying for the mistakes made over the last 30 years - we, the people, will.

This thread is about 'yob culture', so I now ask the question, does this include 'gangsta culture'? Yes, I'm talking about the same social phenomenon which occurs in the black community - the culture of gangsta rap, knives, guns, hooded tops, bling, and so on. I just have to ask, if the yobs feel excluded, then what about the young blacks in British society?

We're all here on CM. Let's try something, shall we? Using the search options for the profiles, go check out how many black male submissives you can find on this site for the United States. Now go back and do the same for black males in the UK. What do you see?

We have black people here in Britain since the 1950's and 1960's. But somehow the influence of Martin Luther King never quite made it to our green and pleasant land. Very few yuppies in the 1980's were black, and even today in London we hardly notice a non-white bus driver but in the City of London on any weekday the majority of people you see working are white. Despite the fact that we have ethnic diversity in our larger cities Britain is still very much a white country.

But it was their parents and grandparents who took to the streets in 1981 to riot against the 'sus' laws of the Metropolitan Police under the Thatcher government, which caused the government to back down over giving the police new powers. Even in the 1980's the writing has been on the wall, so what were we doing as a nation?

Still on the topic of the 1980's... how many people here can remember the television advertisements and the slogans of the 'world-beating' British corporations? What ever happened to Sid?

Okay, can anyone tell me the names of 5 British CEO's of 5 global British owned corporations? I'm talking here about corporations financed entirely by British shareholders.

Another interesting question. The John Major government of 1992-1997 had twice the financial resources than the amount the Germans spent in the reunification of Germany. Where did the money go?

Now returning back briefly here to the black community and 'gangsta culture' let us not forget just how close-knit black families are, just how many of them regularly go to church, and just how much the black community have their own communities. What went wrong?

Now you can point the finger at as many people as you wish - benefit claimants, single mothers, the black community, Muslims, Eastern European migrant workers, chavs, asylum seekers and whoever else you like - but my honest opinion is that the responsibility for our current malaise doesn't lie with any of these people. It lies with those unseen people in power, the media, and various members of the Establishment. They have been telling people porkies all along, confusing the issues, and basically making a killing. They also won't be the ones to pick up the pieces and pay for the mistakes of the past 20-30 years. We will.



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RE: Yob culture. - 1/24/2008 2:51:51 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		I suppose what has happened and is still happening in Britain could even be a sick social experiment.Society may very well be under constant manipulation.

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/25/2008 1:35:36 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		dont suppose anyone caught This Week last night? (BBC1 after Question Time) They were discussing this very theme, following the comment by our great Home Secretary that it isnt safe to walk the streets.

For anyone unfamiliar with the programme, its a roundup of the week's events in politics, hosted by Andrew Marr and with Diane Abbott (a left wing Labour MP) and Michael Portillo (ex Tory MP) as commentators. Last night, for this theme they had Ross Kemp on as guest, commenting on the subject after his experiences with gangs that were broadcast last year.

What was interesting? That between them they made all the same comments as my posts have done! This of course would make me a tool of the powers that be, except of course that none of them are the powers that be, are very independent outsiders even within the "powers that be" structures of their parties (where relevant).

E

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/25/2008 3:17:23 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Hi Stella

I think there is little difference between ethnic groups when it comes to the causes of all this - different groups may express it differently, but the origin and the psychology involved is very much the same. With particular regard to Afro Caribbean groups there is also the added pressure of a covert yet present racism at play in our society, which rejects them on the basis of their ethnicity long before they are rejected in adult life though. And I wonder too whether Muslim groups dont get rejected at the same earlier opportunity for their religion, and whether this rejection and the consequent rejecting of our society has any role in the radicalisation of Muslim youth? Different expression, but the same origin and the same results as with the rejected white indigenous parts of the population - at least we're equal opportunities when it comes to the recruitment and training of yobs.

But I certainly take your point about the media blaming anyone but the true producers of this situation - and that their favourite targets are the immigrants and disposessed. Yet ultimately the producers of this situation is us - the fools who vote in whomever tells us the best story and is thereby enabled to pursue policies which are not in the interests of the people as a whole, and then chooses to buy and thereby support the media outlets who place the blame firmly elsewhere.

As for our societal norms, I think NG has it right (gasp) that our society is based on a "live and let live" attitude - but this is where we may have missed or may yet miss the boat on doing something about the situation, in that we tend not to seek out or employ the kind of radical solutions that I believe are needed in this instance to get us back on track, and in that like some here we find it difficult to take a stand which might interfere with others' lives, when they have little or no effect on our own.

Incidentally - MLK did make it over here, well Northern Ireland anyway. The recent troubles started over there when Catholics inspired by his movement, started their own movement to assert their human rights in the face of Protestant prejudice and second class treatment. Naturally our establishment came to side with the Protestants and portray the Catholics as trouble making terrorists, which they then became - and we rarely heard ever again the reason for it all.
E

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/25/2008 6:53:15 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Incidentally - MLK did make it over here, well Northern Ireland anyway. The recent troubles started over there when Catholics inspired by his movement, started their own movement to assert their human rights in the face of Protestant prejudice and second class treatment. Naturally our establishment came to side with the Protestants and portray the Catholics as trouble making terrorists, which they then became - and we rarely heard ever again the reason for it all.
E


Troops were first sent to Northern Ireland to prevent protestant attacks on catholics. Things changed when the IRA saw British troops as legitimate targets after the Provisional IRA split from the official IRA. Wilson tried to implement reforms but he did too little for them to make much difference.

Diane Abbott said this about yob culture, so i wish i had seen her comments that you mention.

Diane Abbott, the Labour MP for Hackney North and Stoke Newington, said: "Jacqui is quite wrong to suggest that Hackney is a no-go area for women after dark.
"She is feeding a culture of fear which is bad for our many bars, restaurants, art galleries and other entertainment venues.
"Comments like hers make women unnecessarily fearful. Jackie needs to get to know inner-city London.
"She will find it is not the nightmarish scene from a Hogarth engraving that she seems to imagine."

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/25/2008 7:20:45 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Hi PS53 - from memory, Diane said something along the lines of what with all the jobs for unskilled and lower skilled workers having gone and been replaced by service jobs more usually identified as female jobs, she finds many young men have no identity any more, no aspiration and no future within the system and no means to assert themselves as adults. Gangs then fulfil all these requirements, and provide a situation with an alternative system of values. Now gangs dont represent the entirety of the yob culture of course, but what I found interesting was that it pretty much aligned with my thoughts, from someone from an area where gangs are rampant. To my mind, gangs are really just semi-organised yob clubs, providing a home for those rejected and dispossessed of a future. What we ought to be grateful for I suppose is that these gangs seem to spend most of their time on other gangs.

The real issue though, is what are we going to do (assuming we think we ought to do something) to turn the situation around and provide a life for such disaffected groups which is inside and therefore not so damaging to the whole where they can realise aspirations, can have a future and can acquire respect and an identity coupled to more productive ends?

What was interesting was something Ross Kemp said, having just returned from Afghanistan where he spent time with the troops there, following their work. He said that the troops were just brilliant, professional young men - and came from backgrounds where gangs were prevalent. Its therefore some circumstance which causes the choice to go down the gang path rather than something else - and if we identify that circumstance we can perhaps resolve the whole thing and everyone - not least the gang members, could benefit. And by the way thats no argument for conscription - something I dismissed a page or two back.

E



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RE: Yob culture. - 1/25/2008 7:53:15 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Long term, the goal should be re investment in skills training and the manufacturing industry. Sadly, with globalisation i doubt this will happen. I agree about many gangs not being organised, but this has always been the case with British male youths. Even when there were plenty of jobs there would be trouble between youths from different streets and neighbourhoods.

Slightly off topic i found it ironic that MPs made a big deal of keeping there wage under the price of inflation, just weeks after voting themselves larger expense account. Wages are currently around £60,000 while expenses are over double that amount. What annoys me is this, after ten years in power, the labour party have done very little to improve any of the situations that they blame Thatcher for. Brown wont be any better, nor will Cameron, i want to vote for someone i think will do a good job, but there doesnt seem to be a choice.

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