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RE: Yob culture. - 1/23/2008 3:09:46 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Hate to agree with NG but LadyE you do make edit :Stourport sound like the ultimate dystopian society lol
I just cant believes its that bad.,

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 1/23/2008 3:12:52 PM >

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/23/2008 3:12:56 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Sorry to disappoint NG, but I dont live in Stourbridge.

Not far away from there, but I'm not about to disclose the town, still less the ward where I live.

What I cant get over with your posts NG, is the rosy view you have of our country and our society. Clearly our experiences may be different, but to pretend as you often seem to, that all is well in merry olde England is to my mind simply to ignore the problems we have and so to reject any notion of their resolution.

E

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/23/2008 3:18:09 PM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Hate to agree with NG but LadyE you do make edit :Stourport sound like the ultimate dystopian society lol
I just cant believes its that bad.,


Its not Stourport either Seeks, sorry. But again, not far.

And the town itself isnt that bad overall - it is the area I live in, which taken together with the other similar areas of the town, means that something like a sixth of the population here is so far to the bottom of the socio economic scale that they drop out of the bottom. Personally I dont see any reason or benefit to be achieved for our country by allowing this state of affairs to continue.

E

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/23/2008 3:29:10 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		But what should be done LadyE.? The kind of people who are "shitting" in their own nest will not respond to the carrot.  It needs to be made clear to them that they simply cant carry on like this and if they do then the consequences will be severe.

Then apply severe consequences if needs be. Directed labour may be required.
I am as certain as I can be about anything it would work. Initially there would be an outcry. Ignore it. Bear down hard and crack the whip.

It cannot possibly produce results that are worse than what we have now.

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/23/2008 3:34:13 PM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		No I did not.  Read again, more slowly.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/23/2008 3:36:08 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Hate to agree with NG but LadyE you do make edit :Stourport sound like the ultimate dystopian society lol
I just cant believes its that bad.,


Its not Stourport either Seeks, sorry. But again, not far.

And the town itself isnt that bad overall - it is the area I live in, which taken together with the other similar areas of the town, means that something like a sixth of the population here is so far to the bottom of the socio economic scale that they drop out of the bottom. Personally I dont see any reason or benefit to be achieved for our country by allowing this state of affairs to continue.

E


'Business owners 'round your way struggling to make a profit?

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/23/2008 3:40:31 PM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

But what should be done LadyE.? The kind of people who are "shitting" in their own nest will not respond to the carrot.  It needs to be made clear to them that they simply cant carry on like this and if they do then the consequences will be severe.

Then apply severe consequences if needs be. Directed labour may be required.
I am as certain as I can be about anything it would work. Initially there would be an outcry. Ignore it. Bear down hard and crack the whip.

It cannot possibly produce results that are worse than what we have now.



I strongly disagree Seeks. The saying that "one volunteer is better than ten pressed men" applies here, and also I think it was the Luftwaffe who found that the more you beat a Brit, the more resistant one makes him or her.

Unless there is an opportunity for all to take part in the economy and thence the society and thereby have the opportunity to build a life for themselves according to their capacity, we will always have the problem of a significant proportion of people being rejected from the economy and thence society, and so coming to reject the economy and the society.

To produce that situation however is not an easy thing. It requires a total overhaul of almost every aspect of the country and a change of attitudes in the people as a whole. Something which could only be accomplished through measures and methodologies which would be deemed totalitarian and which would be strongly resisted by international capital - if indeed it were possible to achieve given our reliance on and the intricate web in which we are tied by the latter.

E

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/23/2008 3:46:37 PM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Business owners everywhere struggle to make a profit NG.

The real problem for this town is that its main (sole, even) industry disappeared overseas, taking thousands of jobs away which required little or no skill for reasonable wages - and the idiots in this area (because I'll admit, the vast majority of the "suits" in this town - those who should be developing new industries - are the most unimaginative and dim witted people I ever came across) cannot fathom any form of industry not revolved around that original industry. Meanwhile, those of us who do produce new business and employment simply cant get the right people here to do the jobs, because whilst the world has changed, the preparation for work in this town still revolves around the original industry - frustrating enough to move one's company 200 miles away to where things are different.

E

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/23/2008 3:51:18 PM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		Very disappointed in you LadyE.
The kind of people we are discussing have no sense of inner value or worth, are led by force by those bordering on the phsychotic and have no sense  of the community values that decent people hold.
In the extreme they will kill you and think little of it. Yes I know that is the real "way out" extreme but such types exist.
To severely beat a weaker person is very very common.

Into what kind of society can such people be integrated ?
They must be taught....and that means hard lessons.

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/23/2008 3:52:57 PM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Aneirin my dear - are you really so naive as to believe that the unemployed live solely on welfare benefits, when it has already been pointed out that it is difficult to even survive on them?


And are you really so naive(or rather should I say pessimistic) to believe that the unemployed earn on the side?  What happens when their friends that they have are unemployed or they don't have those wonderful 'friends and associates' who urge them to break the law. What about those who are - shock horror - honest individuals?  Or are you suggesting that every single unemployed person must be breaking the law somehow and are the scum of society?
 
I have spent time with these 'obviously fraudulant unemployed yobs' you are singling out(which is your basic insinuation).  And they aren't the yobs that you should have a problem about that cause the pub brawls and indecent behaviour nor are they the lower skilled, moreoften its middle class, boys and girls of mummy and daddies who own their own business who haven't the time nor inclination to care what they are up to.  Oh and students, who have helicopter parents
 
the.dark.
 

< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 1/23/2008 3:54:44 PM >

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/23/2008 4:06:31 PM   
LadyEllen


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Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		I can only relate what I know to be occurring right here where I am - and it isnt breaking the law in my book for them to get a little extra on the side; in fact, thats the policy I'd put in place if I had the power to do so, to incentivise people doing things for themselves rather than to have such efforts interfere with their benefits payments - up to a certain amount. The Tories' community work policy would be a good idea I think, if it were done with the carrott like this, rather than the stick as they have proposed.

And no, I didnt suggest that getting a little on the side makes anyone the "scum of the earth" and nor did I mention "fraudulent unemployed yobs". Getting some extra on the side includes by the way, assistance from parents - which officially must be declared and deducted from benefits, but no one in their right mind would suggest such, nor suggest that the parents were aiding and abetting benefit fraud nor that the receivers of such assistance were thereby to be branded with either of the terms you read into my post which were simply not there.

Please read my posts more closely. I do try to take time over them so that they say exactly what I mean with no need or reason to read anything into them other than the words that are written?

E

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/23/2008 4:25:18 PM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		But you did suggest that people on benefits can get money by doing work on the side or extra help.  Nothing was noted about declaring until your more recent post - but not as you orignally mentioned which left you post unclear, and indicating that the unempolyed may 'be supplyed the duty free cigarettes and rolling tobacco, some of which they use and some of which they sell on at a small profit'.(Which btw - selling any duty free is illegal - hence they cannot declare, hence obviously fraudulant unemployed).  So maybe you are not writing your posts as clearly as you do intend to?  If you wrote as 'carefully' as you were condecending, the posts would be much clearer.
 
the.dark.

< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 1/23/2008 4:32:03 PM >

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/23/2008 4:26:33 PM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Very disappointed in you LadyE.
The kind of people we are discussing have no sense of inner value or worth, are led by force by those bordering on the phsychotic and have no sense  of the community values that decent people hold.
In the extreme they will kill you and think little of it. Yes I know that is the real "way out" extreme but such types exist.
To severely beat a weaker person is very very common.

Into what kind of society can such people be integrated ?
They must be taught....and that means hard lessons.



Flogging a good man makes him a bad man, flogging a bad man makes him worse.

Given the truth of that and your approach, it would seem apparent that there is only one solution - a final solution, since these people are irrevocably lost and beyond any redemption.

We cannot instil inner value and self worth except by allowing it to develop in a suitable environment, and the most suitable environment is the workplace where cooperation towards a common and productive goal can occur. Punishments and penalties for not keeping pace with the race do not build inner value or self worth, and do not result in this case in any greater pace either. Punishments and penalties should be used only for perpetrators, not for victims - and whilst many of them are horrid little monsters, we made them that way as a society by making them the victims of our economic development without any concern to the social consequences. We got exactly what we deserved and we can now either solve it by inclusive policies or take the road to their ultimate exclusion.

E

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/23/2008 5:15:42 PM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		LadyE peeerlease. We did not make them that way. Such people have always existed but in the "good old days" they knew better than to create havoc in a public place because they realised that the  law would have dealt with them in a peremptory and totally deserved way.

If these people were placed in a disciplined work environment with the ultimate sanction of physical violence as a last resort I am sure their self esteem would be raised.
I can do this, it requires effort but I can do it. I dont need to be me to abuse people. I can and will respect others even when they dont share my views even when they dare to say so.

These people do not fail to "keep pace with the race" they have been taught to  take what they can get  to destroy to be violent.
There is a whole world of difference between legitimate violence applied to the neer do wells lol and the kind of casual violence they have experienced and will pass on to their unfortunate offspring, thus perpetuating the problem until decisive action is taken to break the sequence.
nb "good old days" = 30s.thru 50's.

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/23/2008 6:29:30 PM   
Aneirin


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From: Tamaris
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quote:



Aneirin my dear - are you really so naive as to believe that the unemployed live solely on welfare benefits, when it has already been pointed out that it is difficult to even survive on them?

For example, a friend (not me, honest), might be supplying them the duty free cigarettes and rolling tobacco, some of which they use and some of which they sell on at a small profit. Not me again (honest), might be providing a little on the side work from time to time, cash in hand.

Thing is, those of us who have a little more - and especially those amongst the unemployed who have a little more, tend to share the wealth as we have it from time to time with our less fortunate friends and acquaintances. It comes back round, eventually, usually in kind. But not me HMRC, not me.

And those who might be described as yobs do the same amongst one another and likely get the same extra help from further up the socio-economic scale, according to their particular association groups, I'll venture.

But I will accept that yobs are not exclusively derived from the unemployed. Rather yobs are drawn from a wider spectrum of the socio-economic scale, yet still confined to the lower skilled and unskilled groups I would surmise, who have little to lose from rejecting a society where in work or not, they are at the bottom, rejected from the race the rest of us are frenziedly running.

E


One thing you forget with your assumption that all benefit claimants do a little bit extra on the side as a means of getting by, is that there does exist, in this rotten society we all speak of, another type of person. That type of person, is an honest person, perhaps a person who has not always been a scrounger, but who is forced to be one through no fault of their own. Such a person who all their working lives have worked hard, and consistently in all conditions, time off, only through vacation and they have paid into the system with the belief that the system will help them if they come unstuck.

Those type of people still hold onto a belief in society, and do remain as they were, honest, but becoming more disillusioned with the illusion as time goes by.

The boot being on the other foot now, so to speak, the once maligned pariahs of society, the unemployed and there scrounger, a new understanding is created. An understanding based upon reality, not illusion.

Not all benefit claimants are fraudulent, in any way shape or form, they exist as best they can, the priorities taking precedence, what they see as their duty, to pay what they owe.Food, well, a few days missed is easy, and after the few days easier still, but then that is a dangerous road.




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RE: Yob culture. - 1/24/2008 3:25:31 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Hi Seeks
I have to disagree - yes, we have always had and likely always will have a small percentage of the population that are, in short hand, a pain in the arse to the rest, for whatever reason. But, the effects of our economic development (better said perhaps, our political development) over the last few decades have been such that this small percentage has been increased to a more significant percentage. Indeed, the reason why the justice system cannot handle things as they have become is I believe far more due to the increase of the "pain in the arse" minority than it is to the introduction of such considerations as human rights in policing. Albeit that I would agree that this latter has regrettably caused some to lack any fear for the possible consequences of their behaviour, and perhaps to go further more often in their poor behaviour.

It is clear to me that those representing the increase in the PITA group are different to those making up the hard core of that group - those who would be PITAs whatever the circumstances. Those representing the increase have been taught their ways by the social and economic environment in which they find themselves. Adapt and survive, so to speak. As such the behaviour can be untaught.

And I agree, as our society, politics and economics continue down this same road, we will only see a perpetuation of the same - and an increase in my view in the percentage of those concerned. We have therefore to do something about it, or our country will become more and more polarised, to the detriment of each of us and the whole.

E

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/24/2008 3:44:26 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		I'd please like to ask, in which post of this thread did I use any of the following expressions?

"scum of society"
"fraudulent unemployed yobs"
or any similar terminology

because I dont think I have, yet for some reason this has been read by some. And nowhere did I say that getting a little extra on the side makes anyone any of these things, or makes them criminal. To be getting something extra on the side implies that one must be a decent sort in my view - well respected enough, self motivated enough to be in line for such consideration from others.

The problem is that the welfare payments are too high to make it worthwhile to take many regular jobs that are available - yet for most not enough to live a reasonable life. Aside from the odd cases where claimants are making overt frauds (claiming disability when they clearly are not disabled in any way, or continuing to claim - and knowingly at that - when they have found a reasonable job for instance) I see nothing wrong in someone getting an extra tenner every now and then from doing something which is formally forbidden (doing an odd job for someone, receiving a monetary gift etc).

And the reason behind the low wages for many regular jobs is the political choices we have made and the economic choices which followed from them. It is these same political choices and the environment we find ourselves in which perhaps encourage my readers to read between lines at something not there - its whats expected to be there? It is these same economic choices which have led us to a situation where some are no longer of any use to the workplace and where others find that in work they would be worse off.

We are all in this country together, or we are not. If we are not - if we think its OK to continue as we are, then I'm afraid we're doomed to further decay and polarisation and social problems. If we can get it together however, such that everyone who is able to contribute, according to his/her capacity, is enabled to contribute, then we may just repair the damaged society in which we're living.

E

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/24/2008 5:01:31 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		You didn't, say any of those.  If you had I would have attributed them to you.  I didn't.  I would have posted them in quotations with your name on them.  I didn't.  So no one said that you did say any of those. So try and derail the reason behind those posts with what anyone didn't accused you of saying those things  - because no one did.
But if the cap fits, by all means please wear it.
 
You suggested and I quote -(see... I am putting it in quotations and placing your name because you did say this)

quote:

...are you really so naive as to believe that the unemployed live solely on welfare benefits, when it has already been pointed out that it is difficult to even survive on them?

For example, a friend (not me, honest), might be supplying them the duty free cigarettes and rolling tobacco, some of which they use and some of which they sell on at a small profit. Not me again (honest), might be providing a little on the side work from time to time, cash in hand.

Thing is, those of us who have a little more - and especially those amongst the unemployed who have a little more, tend to share the wealth as we have it from time to time with our less fortunate friends and acquaintances. It comes back round, eventually, usually in kind. But not me HMRC, not me.


Your post basically is about breaking the law as it stands and insinuates that the unemployed on benefits always break the law, by making money and not declaring it.  No where in that post did you mention about declaring side earnings until you were questioned on your statement.  Apart from the fact that selling and condoning the sale of duty free items is totally against the law and would not be declared anyway (which again, makes your post read as though it is not about declaring, but 'eraning a little extra to top up).  This by default means that the unemployed you are speaking about would be 'fraudulant unemployed' (and just to top it off yobs, because yobs are what you are speaking of in that same post).  I basically said outloud what your words insinuated.  Not once did I say or anyone else say you said those words, so seriously focus on what is important - that you basically think it is ok for people to earn fraudulantly whilst unemployed with a bit of work on the side and selling illegal items which are duty free?  Is that or is that not what your statement above, in the first place, stated?  You state your posts are clear and you spend time over them.  Yet you post and statement above says quite clearly that unemployed people sell duty free items and I questioned your thoughts that you believe that all unemployed people break the law - because in my experience they don't.  I know unemployed people.  I was one of them for a time just over a year ago.  And there is no way I would have sold illegal goods to bump up my payments, nor did I earn on the side without declaring, which left me and my children by the way - nearly £20 worse off.
 
the.dark.


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RE: Yob culture. - 1/24/2008 5:08:08 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		Despite all our mutterings on this site and others, places where common people can analyse based upon experience and even create a viable solution to society's ills, those in the positions of power , to cause change are blind and ignorant. That is unless of course there are members of government who are perusing sites such as these as they are secretly kinksters themselves.If that is so, then they would never take on board anything that could be traced to a site full of deviants.

Those we foolishly elect to serve us in government do not represent our needs, they exist for their own ambition, we are just a means to enable that ambition.So nothing will change, society will further break down, and I fear the gap between poor and wealthy will become greater and a country's people become more disenfranchised which may very well lead to more unrest and yobbish behaviour, even yobbish behaviour may be looked upon as a form of political activism.

That in mind, are the perpetrators of yobbish behaviour really engaged in political activism without them knowing it is, as a release from the tensions and wrongs they feel within our system, they unhappy, feel the need to kick back against a system they feel does'nt want them.



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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

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RE: Yob culture. - 1/24/2008 5:57:55 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

That in mind, are the perpetrators of yobbish behaviour really engaged in political activism without them knowing it is, as a release from the tensions and wrongs they feel within our system, they unhappy, feel the need to kick back against a system they feel does'nt want them.




Exactly my point. Beat a dog long enough and sooner or later it will bite you.

And before that gets read into, I'm not suggesting that some people are like dogs or any other non human animal, or should be regarded or treated as such, I'm not suggesting anyone should be beaten or that biting others is acceptable.

E

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