RE: So, what should penalty for having an illegal abortion be?

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RE: So, what should penalty for having an illegal abort... - 1/24/2008 8:03:48 AM

Nats

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sub4hire

We merely need to teach our children morals so if the situation ever arose they would think long and hard before having an abortion.

Except that people's morals, values, and beliefs can be completely different, or to varying degrees, or they can face varying levels of compromise depending on life situations.

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RE: So, what should penalty for having an illegal abort... - 1/24/2008 8:06:25 AM

sub4hire

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nats

Except that people's morals, values, and beliefs can be completely different, or to varying degrees, or they can face varying levels of compromise depending on life situations.

True, but even illegal people are still going to have them. You first need a way to make them stop, period.
So, you just have to cope with it one way or another because they are going to happen.

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RE: So, what should penalty for having an illegal abort... - 1/24/2008 8:15:03 AM

Nats

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sub4hire

True, but even illegal people are still going to have them. You first need a way to make them stop, period.
So, you just have to cope with it one way or another because they are going to happen.

Absolutely, legal or illegal, history has shown that people will have them. The thought of someone having one done illegally, in secrecy, and with less than proper medical care and supervision scares the crap out of me. My personal thoughts about the morality or immorality of abortion don't really figure much in my belief that I think it should be an individualized choice, and that the person involved should have access to any and all options and choices humanly possible.

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RE: So, what should penalty for having an illegal abort... - 1/24/2008 8:18:25 AM

kittinSol

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What's interesting in the YouTube documentary fargy posted is that whilst all the people interviewed told the journalist they believed abortion should be made illegal, none of them had thought at length as to what the penalty should be for having one.

I think it's because although they call abortion murder, they know deep down it isn't so: otherwise, they'd find it much easier to call for the women incriminated to be fined. Or jailed. Or burnt at the stake.

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RE: So, what should penalty for having an illegal abort... - 1/24/2008 8:28:22 AM

farglebargle

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I think the people in the interviews were totally honest.

They had NEVER thought out the implications of Abortion = Murder past "We need to make it illegal!".

And I don't think they'd ever be encouraged to. Remember, to always follow the money.

That meme, is all that's *really necessary* for the hucksters *running* the Pro-Life campaigns and making all the money off the gullible "believers" to have, the "easy answers without difficult questions"?

As does, "Who *OWNS* the fetus?" and "Who *OWNS* the Mother?"

Locke gave us the notion of Life, Liberty and Property. 3 things the Government cannot *rightly* take without Due Process.

Liberty and Property are intertwined, though. You can OWN a slave. Does a Freeman own themselves? I think so.

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RE: So, what should penalty for having an illegal abort... - 1/24/2008 11:01:36 AM

thetammyjo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Yeah. I'd do the same if she just had a baby and threw it into the river, too.

What about the man who was necessary for the pregnancy in the first place?

Or the doctor/someone else who helped her?

Why single out the woman? She didn't get pregnant by herself did she?

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RE: So, what should penalty for having an illegal abort... - 1/24/2008 11:26:13 AM

Owner59

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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

I think the people in the interviews were totally honest.

They had NEVER thought out the implications of Abortion = Murder past "We need to make it illegal!".

And I don't think they'd ever be encouraged to. Remember, to always follow the money.

That meme, is all that's *really necessary* for the hucksters *running* the Pro-Life campaigns and making all the money off the gullible "believers" to have, the "easy answers without difficult questions"?

As does, "Who *OWNS* the fetus?" and "Who *OWNS* the Mother?"

Locke gave us the notion of Life, Liberty and Property. 3 things the Government cannot *rightly* take without Due Process.

Liberty and Property are intertwined, though. You can OWN a slave. Does a Freeman own themselves? I think so.

They were just absolutely taken off guard.And true,their answers and reactions were sincere.You could see the wheels turn in their heads,ouch!.Wheels that weren`t supposed to move at all,were turning.

That last woman,now she was down right scary.When she switched from good citizen to suspicious zealot,it was like "get out`ma face!",and nasty, in a polite way.

IMO,these folks aren`t there for the unborn.They are there for their own edification and selfish purposes.

I`m not happy that women get abortions.Who could be?Even abortion providers, would rather not do them.Anyone who claims that there are people who love,like,want,or prefer abortion,is a nut.No one does.

The right-to-life folks,those dick-heads,don`t want contraception either,disease prevention education or sex-ed.They don`t want RU-486 or other morning after pills,to be legal.The nuts in the white house,kept RU-486 off the market,for years.They don`t want condoms to be made available to UMs,who are at very high risk and are the most vulnerable.

They think it will just all go away or somehow things will get better,if abortion is outlawed.

They think that if we just say "NO",that will be enough.The "abstinence only" program has been a failure,here in the states,and world wide as well.In spite of the drop in the number of abortions.

http://health.usnews.com/usnews/health/healthday/071205/teen-birth-rates-up-for-first-time-in-14-years-us-reports.htm

"That startling news was accompanied by additional data showing that last year also had record high rates for unmarried women having babies as well as for Caesarean deliveries."

and,

http://boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2008/01/04/changing_the_script_on_teen_pregnancy/

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 1/24/2008 11:32:01 AM >

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RE: So, what should penalty for having an illegal abort... - 1/24/2008 12:55:25 PM

DesFIP

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I'm old enough to remember what it was like before Roe vs Wade. And to remember that the penalty for a back alley abortion was, all too often, death. My mother went to funerals of friends, whose only crime was living in a Catholic country that forbade birth control. Customs searched all packages and confiscated birth control items.

Of course, the penalty for having 13 children born within 10 years was death also.

I'm glad I don't have to worry about chancing a coat hanger, I hope my daughter and future granddaughters never do.

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RE: So, what should penalty for having an illegal abort... - 1/24/2008 12:58:29 PM

sublimatedlass

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abortion is one of those issues that blends those two areas politics and religion in ways that inflame people, but the debate is never a true debate - it just leads to more anger and tensions rather than opening the minds and hearts of those involved in the discussion

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RE: So, what should penalty for having an illegal abort... - 1/24/2008 1:21:43 PM

kittinSol

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You're probably right in the majority of cases, but I have witnessed instances when somebody changed their mind over the issue, usually after considering their personal circumstances (it's funny how people change their mind as soon as they imagine they or their loved ones in some kind of predicament). There is another issue which inspires a similarly passionate debate: the death penalty.

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RE: So, what should penalty for having an illegal abort... - 1/24/2008 1:38:05 PM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

If...

IF...

Life, human life, begins at conception is abortion moral and ethical?

I mean... if we are asking questions let's start with that one.

Where do you draw the line? Is the pill immoral?

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RE: So, what should penalty for having an illegal abort... - 1/24/2008 1:41:42 PM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngel1

What I find ironic is that so many people who are pro life are also pro death penalty.

I'm pro choice and vehemently anti-death penalty, but I don't think pro life and pro death penalty are necessarily contradictory.

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RE: So, what should penalty for having an illegal abort... - 1/24/2008 1:46:39 PM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

If...

IF...

Life, human life, begins at conception is abortion moral and ethical?

I mean... if we are asking questions let's start with that one.

For a society that spends so much money on R&D for weapon systems to kill people more efficiently and for a society so pro death penalty, what difference is a few abortions where the fetus has not developed into a viable life?

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RE: So, what should penalty for having an illegal abort... - 1/24/2008 6:06:28 PM

FatDomDaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngel1

What I find ironic is that so many people who are pro life are also pro death penalty. Go figure.

Well... I am against both.

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RE: So, what should penalty for having an illegal abort... - 1/24/2008 6:17:37 PM

FatDomDaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Where do you draw the line? Is the pill immoral?

It is actually a very very easy line draw.

At the moment a woman "Knows" not think she knows, but actually in fact knows that she is pregnant.

I can make peace with contraception, as it MAY prevent conception or MAY prevent a zygot from attaching to the uterus. It is one of the reasons I support the use of the morning after pill (which is NOT ru-486). The MAP only starts a woman's period that day it is taken, whether she is pregnant or not. There could be no proof at all that the woman is or is not pregnant. I also believe it shoud be over the counter to whatever pharmacy or women's center that whishes to sell or give it away.

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RE: So, what should penalty for having an illegal abort... - 1/24/2008 6:19:10 PM

CuriousLord

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngel1

What I find ironic is that so many people who are pro life are also pro death penalty. Go figure.

That's an odd sterotype. Do you have some reason to believe it? (It fails in my case. :P)

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RE: So, what should penalty for having an illegal abort... - 1/24/2008 6:20:40 PM

CuriousLord

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Do you eat meat? If you respect the sanctity of life to such an extent, you owe it to life not to participate in its killing.

Ah, that's true. After all, we all know that Native Americans were vegans.

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RE: So, what should penalty for having an illegal abort... - 1/24/2008 6:26:28 PM

FatDomDaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Why don`t you just answer the question?

If one is going to ask a speculative question like the one in the OP, than I think one needs to set the parameters first. I think it is very fair to ask my question first. If abortion is illegal. than I am assuming the powers that made it illegal will have given a legal definition as to what a fetus actually is. I can answer fargle's question once I know what that definition is.

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RE: So, what should penalty for having an illegal abort... - 1/24/2008 6:28:23 PM

CuriousLord

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Yeah. I'd do the same if she just had a baby and threw it into the river, too.

What about the man who was necessary for the pregnancy in the first place?

Or the doctor/someone else who helped her?

Why single out the woman? She didn't get pregnant by herself did she?

Whoever commits the act, tammy. It's like any other crime.. there's co-conspirators and such. The so-called "doctor" would be as guilty (if not slightly more) than the woman (because the woman is at least under duress, which makes what she's doing slightly less henious).

But I hope you don't mean the father should also be held guilty if the would've-been "mother" did it without his knowledge. The pregnancy isn't a crime (unless, of course, it was rape, then it certainly is), but the abortion is. That'd be as silly as holding a mother guilty of rape if the father molests the children when they're growing up (and if she's unaware. Again, awareness and failure to try to prevent it are crimes, just like any other.)

Of course, with the normal mother's health/rape/incest/going-to-be-stillborn exceptions.

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RE: So, what should penalty for having an illegal abort... - 1/24/2008 6:30:16 PM

kittensmailbox

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there shouldnt be a penalty... it is the woman's body period... IMHO

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