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RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? - 1/24/2008 8:22:24 AM

Stephann

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

They have the 'right' over their own body - or are we really going to go down the whole avenue of it's my child I can do with them what I want road? Otherwise you might as well just say you have the right to choose other procedures and god only knows what other actions upon them as well. And THAT is verging on abuse.

But regardless of their 'rights' you singled out females. You are also walking dangerously close on the whole 'lets make sex safe' thing. Do you really believe that the biggest threat to a child out there is an unwanted pregnancy? I know, lets forget educating our future, just prescribe them contraception. We already have the means of inserting pole into arms or thighs. The technology you are frighteningly promoting is already there. Your invasion into the privacy of female childrens sexual reproduction is quite frankly sickening.

And I am done, because this is verging on breaking TOS, discussing children on CM isn't the best of platforms to do it on.

the.dark.

I believe that when pregnancy occurs in women 17 or younger, the quality of their lives is drastically reduced; indeed, there are few things that can happen to a child's future that is worse than becoming pregnant. Your comments about education are simply a straw man; I haven't suggested reducing education in any form, or that we should ignore other issues.

Children have rights, certainly; reproduction (as a child) is not one of them. Parents bear the moral and literal responsibility for their child's welfare. If I have a pregnant 14 year old, I become financially, morally, and legally responsible for that childs well being for at least three years; this, of course, assuming I'm willing to simply give my daughter the boot at the age if 18.

And I've made it clear, my position isn't that this should be a procedure 'just for women.' I'm fine with it being availible for both sexes, so long as it's medically safe and doesn't infringe on their ability to bear children at a time when they wish to do so.

Also, I've made it clear that I don't think this should be law; I see it simply becoming customary. Fifty years ago, the idea that a young woman carrying a condom would have been met with the same shrill tone of their mothers as you're exhibiting.

Stephan

< Message edited by Stephann -- 1/24/2008 8:23:42 AM >

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Post #: 41

RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? - 1/24/2008 8:24:47 AM

LaTigresse

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Carmeldelight

A mother should be able to abort a child up to age 12.

Up to age 12??? Hell, that is just about the time they turn from "sweet little angel" to "spawn of satan"!!

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Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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Post #: 42

RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? - 1/24/2008 8:31:40 AM

Carmeldelight

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LaTigresse, thank you, you know what I am speaking about. Since they know everything at the age of 12 the children should be allowed to work and get their own apartment. If the child does not want to get a job or an apartment, then off to the abortion center they go.

(in reply to LaTigresse)

Post #: 43

RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? - 1/24/2008 8:37:37 AM

Stephann

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Thank you, carmel, for expressing so clearly in a manner I couldn't, exactly what is wrong with abortion.

Stephan

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Post #: 44

RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? - 1/24/2008 8:38:10 AM

LaTigresse

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Well Stephan I do have a slight problem with this last statement. Only because I did become pregnant at age 16, and again at age 18. Since birth control obviously was not working out too well for me I had a tubal ligation right after my second child was born.

Some people may look at my life and say that from THEIR perspective, becoming a mother at that age was a terrible thing and ruined my life. Because of it, I did not finish high school, I was forced to marry the father, I could not go to college..........and on and on and on....

I refuse to look at my life in that light. I adore my two adult children, I love and even LIKE the human beings they have grown up to be. I enjoy spending time with them when I can. I also think the path my life has taken so far has been pretty fucking amazing. I've learned things from that path that most people would never have the opportunity to learn. I just had more unique classrooms and teachers.

You have to understand that I have always had a strong sense of personal responsibility. Even at age 16. I made the choice to have sex. The first (or second.....a couple days apart) time I had sex I got pregnant. I felt it was my responsibility to shoulder the repercussions of my decision. I have a very strong core feeling about taking personal responsibility. Not just when it is fun or easy, but always. I don't like excuses or taking sneaky or easy outs.

I don't venture to say that my way is The Way, but for you to dare to say that my life or the life of every other young person that might find themself in a similar situation is somehow less, or ruined because of a pregnancy is presumptious. Sure it was not easy, and sure there are mistakes made. Such is the nature of living.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 45

RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? - 1/24/2008 8:38:45 AM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Carmeldelight

LaTigresse, thank you, you know what I am speaking about. Since they know everything at the age of 12 the children should be allowed to work and get their own apartment. If the child does not want to get a job or an apartment, then off to the abortion center they go.

......soooooo, combining this thought with the OP we have the possibility that a collection of cells aren't human until, what, 21? Or maybe they're not human until they can tidy their own room without being asked........

(in reply to Carmeldelight)

Post #: 46

RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? - 1/24/2008 8:41:47 AM

LaTigresse

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Given the history of the young man I raised, and misc other male family members..... I would venture to say the number would be closer to the 25-30 range.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 47

RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? - 1/24/2008 8:44:42 AM

Stephann

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From: Portland, OR
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Well Stephan I do have a slight problem with this last statement. Only because I did become pregnant at age 16, and again at age 18. Since birth control obviously was not working out too well for me I had a tubal ligation right after my second child was born.

Some people may look at my life and say that from THEIR perspective, becoming a mother at that age was a terrible thing and ruined my life. Because of it, I did not finish high school, I was forced to marry the father, I could not go to college..........and on and on and on....

I refuse to look at my life in that light. I adore my two adult children, I love and even LIKE the human beings they have grown up to be. I enjoy spending time with them when I can. I also think the path my life has taken so far has been pretty fucking amazing. I've learned things from that path that most people would never have the opportunity to learn. I just had more unique classrooms and teachers.

You have to understand that I have always had a strong sense of personal responsibility. Even at age 16. I made the choice to have sex. The first (or second.....a couple days apart) time I had sex I got pregnant. I felt it was my responsibility to shoulder the repercussions of my decision. I have a very strong core feeling about taking personal responsibility. Not just when it is fun or easy, but always. I don't like excuses or taking sneaky or easy outs.

I don't venture to say that my way is The Way, but for you to dare to say that my life or the life of every other young person that might find themself in a similar situation is somehow less, or ruined because of a pregnancy is presumptious. Sure it was not easy, and sure there are mistakes made. Such is the nature of living.

Hiya LaT,

In no way was I suggesting women who have had children in their teens must or will have 'ruined' lives. Rather, I'm suggesting that it has a very high potential for being catastrophic. I was 19 when my girlfriend got pregnant; I was married and a father at 20, living in Japan; I also hold the concept of personal responsibility very high.

The question I'd ask you, though, is would you wish for your daughter to also be pregnant at 16? It is that question, that leads me to suggerst that teens shouldn't have to worry about becoming pregnant while they are teenagers. I remember having sex at 16. My parents found out about it, and rather than sitting with me and discussing contraception, I was delivered the holy roller assault and grounded for three months.

The words of my dad still haunt me today: "We don't do that sort of thing! We're not hill people!"

Regards,

Stephan

< Message edited by Stephann -- 1/24/2008 8:50:37 AM >

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Post #: 48

RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? - 1/24/2008 8:54:13 AM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Given the history of the young man I raised, and misc other male family members..... I would venture to say the number would be closer to the 25-30 range.

...blame that poor and late implementation of frontal lobe connectivity. i call it a design flaw. So, who can we sue?

(in reply to LaTigresse)

Post #: 49

RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? - 1/24/2008 9:06:11 AM

LaTigresse

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Stephan, thank you for the reply and the path you took with it. I agree, there is a very high risk of serious problems. Probably more often the case even. I guess I have just known enough situations where it was not catastrophic, just another life hurdle.

Of course I would not want anyone to go through what I did. It was difficult. How would I have felt, or what direction would I have pushed, if my daughter had to face it at that age.......I will never know. I did a fair enough job at mothering that my kids had more personal responsibility at that age than I did. We talked, ALOT. My kids were educated about all the potential repercussions from an early age. They are intelligent, and obviously, were aware of my age in correlation to their own.

I do have people I love, that made a different choice than I did. While I may not like the choice they made I refuse to pass any sort of judgement on them, or their decision. It is just not my place. It is very likely they don't even know how I feel about the subject.

All in all, I don't know what the answer is. There are just too many variables. Unfortunately I think it comes down to parenting, teaching our children more and better than we have in the past, or do now. Making the discussion of the subject less taboo so that it can be broached more openly. And really, alot of it is just pure dumb luck, which is unfortunate.

I think that the reality is that we are trying to create absolutes for a nice, clean, pretty existance. Nothing messy or ugly. Everything all neatly planned and put into its respective box. Sadly, it is just not realistic. We are human beings with all of the messiness that comes with it.

Regardless of what is done to try and prevent, unwanted pregnancies will happen. Regardless of laws or enforcement of those laws, abortions will happen. Regardless of the choice to not have an abortion there will be children born and raised in less than ideal homes. There just are no perfect answers.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 50

RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? - 1/24/2008 9:10:53 AM

RCdc

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The difference between a condom and a medical procedure is the difference between moral argument back then and an ethical one.
The two are not comparable.

As I stated, the procedure for females is available now, so have at it. But in no way does it promote safe sex at all (unlike condoms which did and do) - it purely takes the weight of the shoulders of parents who insist they are doing 'what is right'. So fine, no more pregnancies - but I wonder if there would be an increase in STDs? Abuse?

I asked my daughter the very question. She is 13. She just walked through the door from school and I asked her about this and her answer? Why, so wouldn't you trust me to be sensible?
Said it all for me in one breath.

Now we participate in 'apparently' consensual activities, and bleet on about trust, respect, honesty, consent. Blah.Blah.Blah.
Funny many don't often practise what they preach.

(edit to add) I will ask my son when he gets home as well.

the.dark.

< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 1/24/2008 9:16:00 AM >

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RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? - 1/24/2008 9:17:03 AM

LaTigresse

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Yes, I think the key really lies in communication and education. And the reality is that it does, lie heavily on the parent to create that. After that, regardless of precautions, you do have to trust the kids to utilize the tools you've given them. To trust them to make responsible choices.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 52

RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? - 1/24/2008 9:23:20 AM

CalifChick

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FR

Am I the only woman here who has ever wished she could harmlessly turn off her reproductive cycle until she was ready to reproduce?? Who has dreamed of one day having a "switch" that could be turned on or off (vaguely along the lines of what Stephan mentioned)?

You would think preventing conception would be easy "in this day and age" as I believe someone said. Taking abstinence out of the equation (because we don't want to get crazy with this now!), it is not so easy for some people. My first was conceived while I was taking the pill (yes, taking it correctly), AND thru the proper use of condoms. My second (which I lost) was conceived naturally with someone who was declared infertile by three (maybe four? can't remember) reproductive specialists. My third was conceived naturally with that same person (yep, he was still infertile). And there was no one else involved, and yes, I'm positive of that. And from my research, I am not so unique.

As to the original question, I don't believe it's a question of human or not human, so not even going to go there.

Cali

< Message edited by CalifChick -- 1/24/2008 9:28:00 AM >

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RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? - 1/24/2008 9:23:47 AM

RCdc

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Absolutely Ma'am. Otherwise we may as just lock them up in a room or never let them out of our sights just because.

the.dark.

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RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? - 1/24/2008 9:27:29 AM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

FR

Am I the only woman here who has ever wished she could harmlessly turn off her reproductive cycle until she was ready to reproduce?? Who has dreamed of one day having a "switch" that could be turned on or off (vaguely along the lines of what Stephan mentioned)?

Cali

No Cali. I would happily turn mine off now, so you aren't the only woman. But out of choice, not 'just in case'. Of my own free will, not because someone doesn't trust me, or made the decision for me. Well, unless that person was Darcy.

the.dark.

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RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? - 1/24/2008 9:31:22 AM

laurell3

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Well legally you cannot force a minor or incompetent to be sterilized so I highly doubt the USSC will change their mind on that. In fact, attempting to force a minor to undergo an abortion or sterilization other than for absolute medical necessity has been upheld as neglect.

Thankfully birth control is getting much better now and doesn't always require as much follow-through. The answer I personally believe is education and communication.

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Post #: 56

RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? - 1/24/2008 9:46:10 AM

Stephann

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From: Portland, OR
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Yes, I think the key really lies in communication and education. And the reality is that it does, lie heavily on the parent to create that. After that, regardless of precautions, you do have to trust the kids to utilize the tools you've given them. To trust them to make responsible choices.

And, the other side of the coin, that no matter how great a parenting job you do, your kids will do things we think they shouldn't. It isn't simply and always a failure on the parts of parents, schools, or society when teens get pregnant. Teens are people, with weaknesses and failings just like adults. It isn't always the fault of the parent, when a teen makes a mistake. I do hope I drew a clear distinction between getting (or getting someone) pregnant too young a mistake (a mistake I've also made) and the child in question being a mistake; I've never thought of my son as a mistake.

At any rate, my is more along the lines of Cali's statements; that the day will come when reproduction is no longer accidental. That getting pregnant comes only from a conscious decision to reproduce, and not from hyped up hormones, alcohol, or rape. That men and women will probably be able to turn the capacity to procreate on or off with safe, over the counter medication.

Stephan

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Post #: 57

RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? - 1/24/2008 9:57:49 AM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

That getting pregnant comes only from a conscious decision to reproduce, and not from hyped up hormones, alcohol, or rape. That men and women will probably be able to turn the capacity to procreate on or off with safe, over the counter medication.

That's a more reasonable proposition than your initial one.

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Post #: 58

RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? - 1/24/2008 10:01:21 AM

Stephann

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From: Portland, OR
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

That getting pregnant comes only from a conscious decision to reproduce, and not from hyped up hormones, alcohol, or rape. That men and women will probably be able to turn the capacity to procreate on or off with safe, over the counter medication.

That's a more reasonable proposition than your initial one.

I think you didn't read the first one closely enough. I never suggested it would be a government program, only that it would likely become the norm and not the exception because the technology involved will have advanced dramatically.

Just because I'm pro-choice, doesn't mean I'm not anti-abortion. I think abortion is a terrible thing; I also think in many circumstances, people should have the option to make that terrible choice. The only comfort I have with the concept of abortion today is that before I die, it will go the way of electroshock therepy.

Stephan

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"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

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Post #: 59

RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? - 1/24/2008 10:11:55 AM

Muttling

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann
The only comfort I have with the concept of abortion today is that before I die, it will go the way of electroshock therepy.

Stephan

I understand what you're saying and I'm sure contraception will improve, but I can't see it getting to the level of doing away with abortion.

On a side note, electric shock therapy is still in use to treat major depressive disorder, siezure disorders, schizophrenia, and several other conditions of the mine. Just google ECT or electroconvulsive therapy.

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 60

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