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RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? - 1/24/2008 10:13:58 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
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So I asked my son. He is 15. His response-
Well, if you did it, it's because you were doing what you thinks right. So I said, that grown ups werent always necessarily right and he said, yeah well your my mum so it's different because I trust you (yeah well that makes me sound cool, but it's not why I posted it)
I guess it ultimately comes down to trust hey - on either side.

the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 61

RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? - 1/24/2008 10:24:42 AM

BossyShoeBitch

Posts: 3931
Joined: 1/13/2007
From: South Florida
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

The words of my dad still haunt me today: "We don't do that sort of thing! We're not hill people!"

Regards,

Stephan

Imagine if your Dad saw your amazing new picture!!! LOL

_____________________________

A clever man can get out of situations a wise man never gets into...
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 62

RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? - 1/24/2008 10:30:06 AM

CuriousLord

Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline

Dear all:

It was my hope to point out that to be "human" is to meet a series of vague and differing definitions.. that, in the end, you can't say something is or isn't human anymore than you can say if the number 435 is close to 500. You could more accurately say that the subject in consideration (the 435) is close to the ideal (the 500) in ways. Or, more accurately, you could say it differs by 65. Or, with true reverence, you could state that they're simply 435 and 500, leaving the analysis up to circumstance.

Therefore, is a fetus human? The question is silly because it's based off on how close to one's ideal of humanity it is! It's certainly closer than a pile of dirt, but it's probably further than your adult family members.

My point is that if something is or isn't human is irrelevant. That we have to look beyond that to understand the question.

More whispers lost to noise.

(in reply to CuriousLord)

Post #: 63

RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? - 1/24/2008 10:37:37 AM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Stephann, a couple of female posters have asked a rather relevant question: why shouldn't you apply this science-fictionesque idea to males? Make it mandatory to prevent males from procreating. It would be medically easier, as their reproductive organs are... easier to reach. Just a little knot, and hey presto! They're sterile.

Thankfully, your dream will remain a fantasy. Abortion isn't such a problem that we'll ever have to resort to such extreme measures. It's an unfortunate fact of life that women have to terminate pregnancies: but it's not the end of the world. Only anti-choice people would have us believe that.

Lol,that`s a riot,kittin.

Someday,mark my words,there`ll be micro valve(s)/switch(s)
,that will let men switch on,and switch off the little rascals,at will.Someday...

Clap on.<clap-clap>clap off,<clap-clap>,clap on clap off,the "Clapper"......

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 1/24/2008 11:08:25 AM >

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 64

RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? - 1/24/2008 10:39:59 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

Someday,mark my words,there`ll be micro valve(s)/switch(s)
,that will let men switch on,and switch off the little rascals,at will.Someday...

Clap on.<clap-clap>clap off,<clap-clap>,clap on clap off,the "Clapper"......

Owner -
What a great concept for a riddle...

What do you get if you merge the 'Clapper' technology with Viagra?

A wife who applauds when you come home from work.

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 65

RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? - 1/24/2008 10:46:09 AM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

Let's disconstruct, shall we?

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Dear all:

It was my hope to point out that to be "human" is to meet a series of vague and differing definitions.. that, in the end, you can't say something is or isn't human anymore than you can say if the number 435 is close to 500.

Your thread title is "Is a fetus human?", now you tell us you wanted to point out that we cannot say whether it is or it isn't human. If you wished to assert something, you should have said so initially, and not asked a question which misled us into thinking you wished for an informed debate, and not for a battle of opinions (again).

quote:

You could more accurately say that the subject in consideration (the 435) is close to the ideal (the 500) in ways. Or, more accurately, you could say it differs by 65. Or, with true reverence, you could state that they're simply 435 and 500, leaving the analysis up to circumstance.

Therefore, is a fetus human?

What?!!!

quote:

The question is silly because it's based off on how close to one's ideal of humanity it is! It's certainly closer than a pile of dirt, but it's probably further than your adult family members.

If the question is silly, I really don't see why you asked it in the first place, unless it was a poor attempt at rhetoric (see my first paragraph above). And what does a pile of dirt have to do with... oh forget it.

quote:

My point is that if something is or isn't human is irrelevant. That we have to look beyond that to understand the question.

More whispers lost to noise.

If you think other posters' writings are mere noise, I see no reason why you seek for their input in the first place.

_____________________________

(in reply to CuriousLord)

Post #: 66

RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? - 1/24/2008 10:54:00 AM

CuriousLord

Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Your thread title is "Is a fetus human?", now you tell us you wanted to point out that we cannot say whether it is or it isn't human. If you wished to assert something, you should have said so initially, and not asked a question which misled us into thinking you wished for an informed debate, and not for a battle of opinions (again).

..the very first line of the OP starts out suggesting that it's a silly question, then it goes on to say:

It strikes me that arbitrarily classifying as "human" vs. "not human" is not a valid, congruent system of morality. Rather, it's prone to interpretation and seems to be flawed in its very concept.

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 67

RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? - 1/24/2008 11:04:23 AM

Stephann

Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Muttling

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann
The only comfort I have with the concept of abortion today is that before I die, it will go the way of electroshock therepy.

Stephan

I understand what you're saying and I'm sure contraception will improve, but I can't see it getting to the level of doing away with abortion.

On a side note, electric shock therapy is still in use to treat major depressive disorder, siezure disorders, schizophrenia, and several other conditions of the mine. Just google ECT or electroconvulsive therapy.

Muttling,

That's actually why I used the example. I'm not saying abortion would be outlawed or never practiced; only that it's use will rarely be used and considered barbaric.

Regards,

Stephan

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to Muttling)

Post #: 68

RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? - 1/24/2008 11:12:05 AM

Stephann

Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

So I asked my son. He is 15. His response-
Well, if you did it, it's because you were doing what you thinks right. So I said, that grown ups werent always necessarily right and he said, yeah well your my mum so it's different because I trust you (yeah well that makes me sound cool, but it's not why I posted it)
I guess it ultimately comes down to trust hey - on either side.

the.dark.

Which is the crux of my point; parents are expected to do what they believe is best for their children.

I believe if and when I have a daughter, as early as is medically safe, I expect she'll be on the safest form of birth control possible. When she's old enough to accept the consequences of stopping, that will be her choice. There's a whole stack of reasons that aren't even related to pregnancy in favor of the pill; from regular and less painful periods, to better looking skin. By this route, she also doesn't have to ever worry about whispering one day in her mom's ear "mom... I'd like to go on the pill...but I'm afraid dad will find out." If she adamently refuses to go on the pill, I'd (probably) respect her wishes, though.

I also expect to discuss sex openly, and often, just like I'd discuss any other aspect that is important to her life. The first, last, and inbetween lesson I want my children to learn, is that they can ask anything and expect an honest answer, and that they are responsible for themselves. The pill won't prevent her from STDs, and she'll need to know that everything she does carries a risk; but at the same time, there's no need to live in fear of risk, so long as you understand it and work to minimize those risks.

BSB,

Heh, my dad would probably be horribly shocked. Ironically, I probably learned about as much of D/s from watching him kiss my step-moms ass as I did in the Marines.

Stephan

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 69

RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? - 1/24/2008 11:13:50 AM

Muttling

Posts: 1612
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Someday,mark my words,there`ll be micro valve(s)/switch(s)
,that will let men switch on,and switch off the little rascals,at will.Someday...

Clap on.<clap-clap>clap off,<clap-clap>,clap on clap off,the "Clapper"......

Gives new meaning to the phrase "Does this turn you on?"

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 70

RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? - 1/24/2008 11:28:43 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

Honestly Stephann - I did and do see your point, but it was incredibly harsh in it's delivery and that is why I was having the debate with you. Now as you can see, I have two children at two different points and ages of their life. Two different answers. I could of just not noted my sons response, but I did, because it makes it a fair exchange giving both POV. But an important issue to remember is that they are both different and that one can have these thoughts of what one might want to do for ones children, but just as you and I as adults are, they are individuals too, with different issues and points of view and needs - and one size doesn't fit all and until you have that child there and present, the issue is undecidable - one can think and plan all they want, but at the end of the day that is all they are. Thoughts and plans.

I count myself incredibly fortunate I can ask them such a frank question straight out, and know they are understanding what I am saying.

the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 71

RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? - 1/24/2008 11:34:32 AM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Muttling

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Someday,mark my words,there`ll be micro valve(s)/switch(s)
,that will let men switch on,and switch off the little rascals,at will.Someday...

Clap on.<clap-clap>clap off,<clap-clap>,clap on clap off,the "Clapper"......

Gives new meaning to the phrase "Does this turn you on?"

Over to the right,now lower,...a lttle lower,ahhh.Right there,click........

(in reply to Muttling)

Post #: 72

RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? - 1/24/2008 11:36:40 AM

Stephann

Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I must say that I too shuddered at what Stephann wrote:

quote:

I suspect a simple, painless procedure given to all women at the age of (say) 8 will prevent her from getting pregnant, until she decides she wants to reverse that procedure to bear children. A couple generations later, it would likely be mandatory, and 'unwanted' pregnancies would be as rare as polio is today.

A mandatory medical procedure such as the one you imagine above would be in contradiction with medical ethics, as they strictly advocate patient choice in all circumstances. Women are not cattle to be manipulated physically into 'breeder' and 'non-breeder' - which is effectively what you seem to be advocating above. I know that if I had a daughter, such a program would make me want to escape from it; but thankfully, I only have one son.

I would have to second that I shuddered also. and all I can say to Stephann is scarey, scarey invasive shit you are suggesting there -wow-

the.dark.

dark,

This is how you express awareness of someone elses point?

It's easy to jump on the bandwagon, and I know abortion's a touchy subject. If you spend time looking for a politically correct and kind statement from me, I hope you brought your mittens for when hell freezes over.

You and kitten put words in my mouth that I never said. I think abortion is wrong. I also think people should have choice. Individual choice, for me, trumps social convention. I think abortion is the most horrific example of this.

It's not the first time you lept to conclusions I never drew, and I doubt it will be the last.

On the other hand, I fully agree that it's a great thing when children are capable of thinking for themselves, and making rational decisions. I don't see childhood as a time when they shouldn't have to make choices; I see it as a time where they should be encouraged to make the best choices they are capable of.

I'd rather my son or daughter consciously choose to do the wrong thing and face the consequences of it, than do the right things blindly. I just hope I could, as a parent, minimize the fallout of consciously bad choices. I'd love to tell my kids "wait till you're 18, and in love before you have sex, and use a condom when you do." But I won't ever put my kids through the hell my folks put me through.

Stephan

< Message edited by Stephann -- 1/24/2008 11:39:47 AM >

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 73

RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? - 1/24/2008 11:46:03 AM

fluffyswitch

Posts: 1108
Joined: 9/29/2007
From: Buffalo
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

That's actually why I used the example. I'm not saying abortion would be outlawed or never practiced; only that it's use will rarely be used and considered barbaric.

this is my stance on abortion as well. i am pro-choice in that i don't necessarily advocate abortion, and i most definitely do not suggest it as a form of routine birth control. however i am a full believer in the idea of legal, safe, and rare.

i hope never to have an abortion. i really hope that i can avoid that issue entirely in my life. however, no one else other than me and partner are truly in any position to make that decision for me. at the risk of sounding harsh just because it was good for you to raise your child or adopt doesn't mean that it works out like that for everyone (note: this is not meant to be directed at anyone, it's a general statement to society). however i would like to see it legalized and regulated, and safe, instead of having to potentially rely on those coathangers that were mentioned earlier in the post.

as for the issue of morality, i believe (and i state again that it's just my belief) that we all have a set time when we are supposed to leave this plane. we leave when we have done what we were put here to do. if a human is a human at conception, and i have an abortion, i feel (again just from my own religious standpoint) that that may full well be when that human was meant to go.

what it comes down to for me is that legalizing abortion is not the same thing as forcing anyone to have an abortion, and pro-choice is not even necessarily pro-abortion. i just don't want anyone else making that decision for me, especially people who will never know me.

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 74

RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? - 1/24/2008 11:50:01 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

No one put words in your mouth they were yours from your post.
Seriously Stephann, the statement I did shudder at. Politically correct or not, I don't give a damn. It was a personal opinion on the concept of a statement. You are the one jumping to concluesion that it was a personal attack on you or what you said. That is why I continued to ask you to clarify, otherwise I would be just second guessing. I don't know you, nor am I ever likely to, nor would I want to. Again, not a slur, just honesty. As I stated - it was scarey invasive shit you were suggesting. It had nothing to do with you, apart from the fact that you said it. It was the concept of the statement that was shudder-causing. Not you. The only statement I did mention that was to you, was it for females, which you since cleared up.

You just made the statement it's not the first time I have jumped to concluesions you never drew. Maybe its they way you state them that people misconstrue, because it wasn't only me. You are consistantly accusing that when someone who doesnt agree with you or tries to hold a debate as arguing or being defensive, or upset or scared or blahblahblah. Doesn't really matter, because you just did the same to me. Pot Kettle Black.
And you are correct, not the first time, won't be the last I surmise.

the.dark.

< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 1/24/2008 11:51:24 AM >

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 75

RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? - 1/24/2008 12:04:53 PM

Stephann

Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline

Debates rest on a premise of mutual respect for the opposition. Addressing my comments on their merit, vice the shock value you ascribe to them should improve your debating experience.

Stephan

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 76

RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? - 1/24/2008 12:26:52 PM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

I'm not big on the whole 'respect is earned' mantra. I respect everyone, regardless of the orientation or position. I do not use 'respect' as some kind of bargaining tool.
And even an attempt at belittling anothers 'debating' experience doesn't diminish it, but please have at it by all means as at least you are consistant - however it just makes a person look clever to some, silly to others. And visaversa.
Either way, to me, it still makes them simply another person.

the.dark.

< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 1/24/2008 12:27:39 PM >

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 77

RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? - 1/24/2008 12:27:02 PM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

You say abortion is wrong. I say it does not belong to the realm of right and wrong. However unpleasant it may seem, it is simply necessary for some people at certain times. I know many women who got pregnant in spite of more than adequate birth control (myself included) and who willingly ended their pregnancy. None of us has any regrets, and I certainly never felt awful, or guilty. Perhaps a sense of nostalgia over what could have been.

As for putting a daughter on birth control de facto...

quote:

I believe if and when I have a daughter, as early as is medically safe, I expect she'll be on the safest form of birth control possible.

... I find this presposterous. Why not wait until the daughter expresses the need and desire to practice contraception? It's far more respectful of her and of her choices, rather than make the assumption that now that she's able to reproduce she will.

Nobody put words into your mouth, but some of us jumped in shock at what you were suggesting as a solution to abortion. Brave New World sprang to my mind.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 1/24/2008 12:31:03 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 78

RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? - 1/24/2008 12:33:41 PM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
Brave New World sprang to my mind.

I couldn't bring that into my mind but it was on the tip of my keypad. The nearest I could muster was Orwellian, but that didn't sit comfortably. But yes, Brave New World does spring to mind (now my minds reminded, thanks). I must re-read that, haven't in an age.

the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 79

RE: On Abortion: Is a fetus human? - 1/24/2008 12:35:52 PM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

It's seriously lacking some literary punch, but one has to admit Huxley had a vision when he wrote it (1932!!!).

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(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 80

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