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RE: State of the Union Address - 1/30/2008 7:01:13 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


Carter, Dukakis and Kerry tried the we're better than this route.



     I can't speak to the Dukakis campaign, but for Carter and Kerry, I'm calling Complete Bullshit on this.

      Maybe you missed it, but Carter took "we're better than this" all the way to the White House in '76.  With double-digit inflation and unemployment (you know, a REAL recession), plus the disgraceful handling of the hostage situation, Reagan destroyed him in a positive campaign.

       John Kerry ran for President in the ugliest climate I've ever seen.   Unless you were in total agreement with the bile and filth that surrounded it, I'm not sure how you missed that.

    (I was in uniform, and a long way from home in '88.  I do remember the pic of Michael Dukakis looking idiotic in a tank, but his expression convinced me nobody put a gun to his head to get the picture.)

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 1/30/2008 7:04:14 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 81
RE: State of the Union Address - 1/30/2008 8:02:01 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Dom Ken, I thought Clinton hiring people to go physically disrupt Bushes campaign rallies was rather over the top, Craig Livingstone.

There is nothing funnier or more pointless than disscussing the 2000 election with someone who thinks Gore wanted "ALL" the votes counted.  Simply never happened.  He asked the courts to intervene to do a special count in 4 districts, and the USSC said no way, those votes are not more special than any other districts votes.  While attempting to have millitary ballots from overseas thrown in the trash.

Lots of people have a hard time grasping that it is not what they say on tv that matters, but what they actually do (and in this case which court cases they file).  I did see Gore on tv asking for "ALL" the votes to be counted many times, but he was in fact trying to have votes thrown away.  He assumes his followers will just go with the tv blurb I suppose, and he seems to have been correct.

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RE: State of the Union Address - 1/30/2008 8:16:06 PM   
FangsNfeet


Posts: 3758
Joined: 12/3/2004
Status: offline 		Oh dear lord, why all the bickering of which party is better? They're all politicians out for power, glory, and fame. Most of our politicians just joined on of these two power parties not on principle or belief, but by what's more popular in there voting communities.

Anyways, can't we all agree to be happy G. W. Bush h last State of The Union speech?

Soon, he'll only be giving speeches at colleges and special interest conventions. Anyone counting down the days?

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RE: State of the Union Address - 1/30/2008 8:21:14 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

the disgraceful handling of the hostage situation


What do you think he should have done, Rich? I'm still not sure what the right response would have been.

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RE: State of the Union Address - 1/30/2008 9:31:06 PM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		      Embassies are sovereign territory, DC.  The taking of ours was an Act of War.  Negotiations should have lasted exactly as long as it took to get the Special Forces, 101st, 82nd or enough Marines into position for whatever size raid on Teheran it would have taken.  Or a total blockade of their exports.  Or siezing the port cities on the Straight of Hormuz, and seeing if that changed the tone of negotiation.  Lots of possibilities when the other side commits a blatant act of war.  And if we lacked the intelligence, military or logistical capability to do any of those things, the blame for that would go to President Carter as well.

      

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RE: State of the Union Address - 1/30/2008 9:36:38 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
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Status: offline 		I definitely see the appeal of military action and at the time pretty much wanted to nuke Tehran.

Not sure, though, whether a military strike would have brought the hostages home alive.

I don't know enough military history to know (a) how ready the forces were and (b) how much of their state rested at Carter's feet. Did he do a lot of cutting?

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 1/30/2008 9:37:03 PM >

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No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

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INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: State of the Union Address - 1/30/2008 9:38:35 PM   
DomKen


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Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


Carter, Dukakis and Kerry tried the we're better than this route.



    I can't speak to the Dukakis campaign, but for Carter and Kerry, I'm calling Complete Bullshit on this.

     Maybe you missed it, but Carter took "we're better than this" all the way to the White House in '76.  With double-digit inflation and unemployment (you know, a REAL recession), plus the disgraceful handling of the hostage situation, Reagan destroyed him in a positive campaign.

      John Kerry ran for President in the ugliest climate I've ever seen.   Unless you were in total agreement with the bile and filth that surrounded it, I'm not sure how you missed that.

   (I was in uniform, and a long way from home in '88.  I do remember the pic of Michael Dukakis looking idiotic in a tank, but his expression convinced me nobody put a gun to his head to get the picture.)

Carter's 1980 campaign. He took the high road. Reagan had Carter's debate prep book stolen amongst other dirty tricks, The Phildelphia MI speech, claiming Carter had visited the birthplace of the KKK. As another poster asked how was Carter supposed to be have non disgracefully handled the matter.

As to Kerry, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth end of story.  Any and all claims that it wasn't Bush behind them is BS and we all know it. That it was a monumentally dirty trick and shameful beyond all endurance and should, if people really believed in supporting our troops, have resulted in Bush getting not a single vote.

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RE: State of the Union Address - 1/30/2008 9:45:51 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

     Embassies are sovereign territory, DC.  The taking of ours was an Act of War.  Negotiations should have lasted exactly as long as it took to get the Special Forces, 101st, 82nd or enough Marines into position for whatever size raid on Teheran it would have taken.  Or a total blockade of their exports.  Or siezing the port cities on the Straight of Hormuz, and seeing if that changed the tone of negotiation.  Lots of possibilities when the other side commits a blatant act of war.  And if we lacked the intelligence, military or logistical capability to do any of those things, the blame for that would go to President Carter as well.


And what keeps the hostages alive through these actions? I personally agree that the US would have been fully justified in rolling in overthrowing the new government but in the real world that would simply have resulted in soviet armor rolling across the Soviet-Iranian border, at the request of the Iranian government naturally, and then what? Do we fight the Soviets? How does this not spread to Europe? We certainly did not have the troops in Europe to stop the Soviets, not Carter's decision BTW, and strategy of the time was our forces were a tripwire force and their defeat would trigger US use of tactical nuclear weapons. The Soviets had promised to respond to any use of nuclear weapons against their troops with strategic weapons. How many cities burn for 52 men?

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RE: State of the Union Address - 1/30/2008 9:56:18 PM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Exactly how did Gore attempt to steal the election?

Examples?

And how did Gore act like a sore loser?

Examples?

You`re so full of crap....

At least Nixon will no longer be thought of as the worst president,ever. 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      Man, this really the night for "if you don't get it, you won't" sorts of questions, isn't it.

     Someday, Owner you are going to see what your side is willing to do to win, and you'll have to live with knowing you helped.


Man,you really no how to shrink and weissel out.

They were simple questions,in English.

Habla español?

Usted quisiera que hablara español?

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RE: State of the Union Address - 1/30/2008 10:03:12 PM   
TheHeretic


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Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


As to Kerry, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth end of story. 



       Have you forgotten about the forged documents on Bush's military service?  Besides, 3 Purple Hearts in 4 1/2 months is going to suggest to a lot of people that Kerry was simply too dumb to duck.  Considering he was trying to run on his service after what he did when he came home, I'd have been shocked if other vets HADN'T called bullshit on him.

       End of story...  Is that like Al saying "the debate is over" when somebody mentions the shrinking ice-caps on Mars?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 90
RE: State of the Union Address - 1/30/2008 10:06:18 PM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		Domken, why do you slander Veterans so often?  Why doesn't the shield of "Veteran" extend to those you disagree with?  And to date not a single shred of evidence has been put forth that Bush paid or directed them.  

All Kerry had to do was open his records and disprove thier claims.  To date, he has not done so.  That is not taking the high road.  That is being a coward.

I am a civilian ex Air Force brat.  I know my old Step Dad hated Kerry and the Anti Nam movement, long before the 04 election.   I hear a veteran make a claim and a group of veterans make counter claims.  Since its veteran against veteran, I just weigh the claims and look at the evidence which Kerry, for reasons known only to himself, refused to provide.  Maybe its just the way I see the world, but I think that if the sealed records made Kerry look good, he would have released them in a heartbeat.  And that he tactically decided to take the flak rather than expose what he continues to keep secret.  Which is of course his right, and mine to think as I feel about it.


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RE: State of the Union Address - 1/30/2008 10:11:16 PM   
TheHeretic


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Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		       Read back a bit, O59.  Your question has already been well answered before you even asked it.  I don't write for Jeff Foxworthy's game show.

     None are so blind as those who refuse to see.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 92
RE: State of the Union Address - 1/30/2008 10:17:18 PM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


As to Kerry, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth end of story. 



      Have you forgotten about the forged documents on Bush's military service?  Besides, 3 Purple Hearts in 4 1/2 months is going to suggest to a lot of people that Kerry was simply too dumb to duck.  Considering he was trying to run on his service after what he did when he came home, I'd have been shocked if other vets HADN'T called bullshit on him.

      End of story...  Is that like Al saying "the debate is over" when somebody mentions the shrinking ice-caps on Mars?

See you did it here as well. You just impugned his military record and without so much as a rumor to go on. How would you like it if I start making light of your service or anyone you served with? What if I sprinkle in a few outright lies to make you look bad? You or I would simply offer to discuss this in a fashion usually reserved for foreign bars while on liberty but how is a presidential candidate supposed to respond?

If the attacks had stayed on his post war conduct I would have had no problem with it. He did do some stuff that I wasn't terribly pleased with after he came home but none of that changes the fact that he commanded a swift boat in a hostile theater and from all reports and actual witnesses did an exemplary job.

What ashamed me almost beyond tolerance was that other veterans stood by and let what was quite obviously and easily verfiably a pack of lies get told about another vet. That some of those same vet then voted for Bush who used money and connections to avoid being in danger and in consequence used up scarce resources that should have been available to servicemen made it maddening. What made this worse was knowing that some of these vet had squawked for 8 years that Clinton dodged the draft but were going to go out and vote for someone who had doged the draft in a way only open to the wealthy and connected.


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RE: State of the Union Address - 1/30/2008 10:26:16 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Domken, why do you slander Veterans so often?  Why doesn't the shield of "Veteran" extend to those you disagree with?  And to date not a single shred of evidence has been put forth that Bush paid or directed them.  

All Kerry had to do was open his records and disprove thier claims.  To date, he has not done so.  That is not taking the high road.  That is being a coward.

I am a civilian ex Air Force brat.  I know my old Step Dad hated Kerry and the Anti Nam movement, long before the 04 election.   I hear a veteran make a claim and a group of veterans make counter claims.  Since its veteran against veteran, I just weigh the claims and look at the evidence which Kerry, for reasons known only to himself, refused to provide.  Maybe its just the way I see the world, but I think that if the sealed records made Kerry look good, he would have released them in a heartbeat.  And that he tactically decided to take the flak rather than expose what he continues to keep secret.  Which is of course his right, and mine to think as I feel about it.

What part of his records are you talking about? The only thing a little vague has been his discharge date and the date of his honorable discharge. This has nothing to do with the lies told about him by SBVT. The records of his service in Vietnam are public as are all the documentation surrounding his decorations.

As to the discharge there is no court martial conviction as that would be easily verifiable. He did not resign his commision in lieu of prosecution as the record of the investigation would be available through FOI. The only thing I can think of, and I'd like to know as well, is that he still owed some inactive reserve time and Nixon's people held up his honorable discharge when he started speaking out against the war. Bush DoD did the same thing to a marine who spoke out against the Iraq a year or two ago until it got quite a bit of publicity.

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RE: State of the Union Address - 1/30/2008 10:29:13 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


What ashamed me almost beyond tolerance was that other veterans stood by and let what was quite obviously and easily verfiably a pack of lies get told about another vet.




         Things like, "cutting off ears" and the rest of the tales he told Congress and the anti-war movement?

        Let's set that aspect aside though, since I don't see concensus forming.  How about the simple tone of hate and disrespect we saw from, oh, let's say Whoopi Goldberg and company, while he stood there and enjoyed?  That was "the high road?"

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 95
RE: State of the Union Address - 1/30/2008 10:31:14 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
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From: Dirty Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

     Embassies are sovereign territory, DC.  The taking of ours was an Act of War.  Negotiations should have lasted exactly as long as it took to get the Special Forces, 101st, 82nd or enough Marines into position for whatever size raid on Teheran it would have taken.  Or a total blockade of their exports.  Or siezing the port cities on the Straight of Hormuz, and seeing if that changed the tone of negotiation.  Lots of possibilities when the other side commits a blatant act of war.  And if we lacked the intelligence, military or logistical capability to do any of those things, the blame for that would go to President Carter as well.

     


Somehow,after causing the deaths of most of the hostages and scores of GIs,the knuckle-heads would have spun the failure into some sort of heroic effort.

Like they are with Iraq.

How is that the wanna-be rambos imagine their pretend scinarios would have worked out any better.

Carter got them home alive.The did good by the hostages and by America,buy not starting WW III for the sake of stupid pride.

He was also a visionary on energy independence,a national solar bank system,alternative energy technologies,fuel standards,improved efficiency and working towards energy security.

If we had stuck with his plan,we would be using no middle east oil,we wouldn`t be going to war for oil or stuck there.

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RE: State of the Union Address - 1/30/2008 10:45:14 PM   
stella41b


Posts: 4258
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From: SW London (UK)
Status: offline 		Being relieved that it was his last State of the Union speech and passive acceptance of life in the totalitarian regime he's created is going to cost far more that you think.

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RE: State of the Union Address - 1/30/2008 10:50:18 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Hi DomKen

I hope you don’t mind me jumping in especially on history that can’t be changed now BUT…

The lack of action then is still causing us problems today…I think Saddam may have been remembering that history and did not believe we would invade.

I believe that if we were up front with Russia about our intentions to retrieve our hostages with whatever force necessary… and we had no intentions of occupying Iran they would not of interfered.

If we had told Iran we were coming, if they did not release the hostages, and then started building forces for invasion they would have found a way to end the standoff.

Butch

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RE: State of the Union Address - 1/30/2008 10:53:17 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		      *edited away cuz I'm developing a case of impatience and grumpiness.

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 1/30/2008 10:55:42 PM >

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: State of the Union Address - 1/30/2008 10:53:59 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


What ashamed me almost beyond tolerance was that other veterans stood by and let what was quite obviously and easily verfiably a pack of lies get told about another vet.




        Things like, "cutting off ears" and the rest of the tales he told Congress and the anti-war movement?

       Let's set that aspect aside though, since I don't see concensus forming.  How about the simple tone of hate and disrespect we saw from, oh, let's say Whoopi Goldberg and company, while he stood there and enjoyed?  That was "the high road?"

Were any of his claims ever disproven? I know most were never documented but I never saw anyone who could produce evidence that he had never seen or heard of the stuff he claimed. As a vet I know such things are possible so while I am not in favor of washing our laundry in public I do not discount his statements without some evidence.

Although I do note your careful snippage of where I said his post war activities were IMO fair game. But of course you have to make me look unreasonable to make your bizarre position hold water.

As to Whoopi, since "and company" is a little too vague to research, I found where she was castigated for making an off color joke about Bush and pubic hair, since I've been telling similiar jokes since around 1988 I am not bothered by that, but no quotes anywhere that were anti servicepeople. I will not go along with the meme of supporting the troops means supporting this war if that is where you're going. But if an off color joke isn't the high road what the hell do you call where Rove and Bush went? Certainly not the low road? Gutter maybe? Although sewer feels more right to me.

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