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a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 1:21:20 PM   
defiantbadgirl


Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline 		Edwards wanted universal health care. Clinton and Obama only want to make health insurance more affordable. How does that help anyone when insurance companies refuse to pay anyway? How many more innocent people have to die slow and painful deaths because the stupid insurance companies call treatments that would save their lives "experimental" and refuse to pay? The government outlawed many types of execution for death row inmates because they were considered "cruel" and "inhumane," but has no interest in stopping  insurance companies from causing innocent law abiding citizens to die cruelly and inhumanely. God bless America, the land of opportunity to die a slow and painful death through no fault of your own.

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Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


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RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 1:35:30 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Hi defiantbadgirl

I think the type plans that Obama and Clinton have proposed have a far better chance of getting through congress then a universal no pay plan. It does no good to put a plan on the table that the Republicans will not support… they will kill it outright… what good does that do?

I think everyone who can afford to…should pay for his or her health insurance. Those that can’t, under the proposals, will receive subsidies.

The important thing is to be practical and get something rather than stubborn and get nothing.

Butch

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
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RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 1:37:02 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Defiantbadgirl, I'm in agreement with you here.
A Third Party Candidate is looking better and better!

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"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

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RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 1:42:40 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Universal health care is great - but by our experience its very, very expensive, can be very, very inefficient and by no means whatsoever ensures that everyone will get the care they need and paid into the system, often over decades, to get.

The system in the US now isnt one I'd endorse, from what I understand of it, but it would be wrong to see universal health care as a huge improvement if you went by our model. We have more than enough people - who have paid in for years remember - refused treatment because its too expensive for the system to fund. And we also have enough people who die slowly in agony with no regard for their dignity.

It will come DBG, I'm sure. But I think the US would do well to make sure that when it comes its been worked out to avoid the problems we have with ours - otherwise you'd just be swapping one set of problems for another. No comfort to those in need right now I know, but then a system like ours might not be any comfort to them either if it were in place right now.

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 1:43:43 PM   
defiantbadgirl


Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline 		I think it's a better idea to convince republicans to support universal health care. If health insurance companies weren't always looking for reasons not to pay, I would be more supportive of  subsidies.

_____________________________


Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


Collared by MartinSpankalot May 13 2008

(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 1:46:26 PM   
sappatoti


Posts: 14844
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: the edge of darkness...
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Hi defiantbadgirl

I think the type plans that Obama and Clinton have proposed have a far better chance of getting through congress then a universal no pay plan. It does no good to put a plan on the table that the Republicans will not support… they will kill it outright… what good does that do?

I think everyone who can afford to…should pay for his or her health insurance. Those that can’t, under the proposals, will receive subsidies.

The important thing is to be practical and get something rather than stubborn and get nothing.

Butch


While I understand perfectly what you are saying, and I agree that a compromised insurance policy is better than one that gets killed immediately, it still doesn't address the point that the OP was trying to make. That being, private insurance plans will not pay for services, treatments, or medications THEY deem to be experimental.

Using my case as an example, I was paying for health insurance through my paycheck deductions. For the sake of simplicity, it was around $200 per month. What I am afflicted with was not covered by the private insurance plans offered by my employer. So, whenever I needed to be treated, not only were the hospital and office visits coming out of my pocket, but the cost of monthly medications were as well. The medications alone amounted to $600 per month, with the discounts by using generics (when they were available).

So, let's add this up. I was paying $200 for insurance that didn't pay for anything in my case, plus at least another $600 for medications alone (not counting visits, etc). $800/month for medical. What was I paying the $200/month for?

This is the real problem with private health insurance... they get to decide who they're going to pay, what they're going to pay for, and when they're going to pay. The consumers don't get a say... the medical practitioners don't get a say... and the government isn't going to get involved.

Forcing people to pay for health insurance sure looks good on paper... "no one is uninsured!"... but if the insurance they have doesn't pay out for the real afflictions that people have, what's the point?

Who's fleecing who here?

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Never mind the man on the edge of the darkness... he means no harm...

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If you don't like my attitude, QUIT TALKING TO ME!

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RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 1:48:04 PM   
defiantbadgirl


Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline 		Good point LadyEllen. Actually, it wouldn't be a bad idea for both the US and the UK to implement the same health care system they have in Canada.

_____________________________


Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


Collared by MartinSpankalot May 13 2008

(in reply to LadyEllen)
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RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 1:56:10 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		I say this without irony, but I am grateful to the NHS for allowing me to give birth to my son in a pool at St Thomas' hospital. No other system in the industrialised world would have allowed me to be alone with my midwife and husband without me fighting for it. The NHS is absolutely great for a lot of things: we had a top pediatric cardiologist look after him (again, at Tommy's) when it was needed. Remember that the users of the NHS never have to fork out a penny in exchange for the medical care they receive, and that's got to count for something.

It's not perfect, of  course, what with the waiting lists and appalling conditions in A&E, but overall, the universal access is admirable.

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RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 1:59:41 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		There is just no way to convince them... the insurance companies pay them too well.

You cannot take profit out of the business or there will not be an incentive for new doctors and specialists. Over regulation will decrease the quality of healthcare I’m afraid.

The best idea, in my opinion anyway, is to increase regulation of insurance companies to insure quality care and immediate arbitration of denied coverage.

Provide subsidies based on income for those that cannot afford healthcare.

Provide Health insurance for all children under the age of 18 and allow adult children living at home or in school stay on their parent’s policy to the age of 25.

I think we could all live and benefit with this system if regulated properly

Butch

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RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 2:01:38 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		It's really hard to say goodbye
to good friends such as you.
But, since you say you're leaving
there's not much else to do.

Except to pray for God's blessings
as you travel along life's way,
and to wish you good health and happiness
increasing day by day.

So, take these blessings with you
and be sure to keep in touch,
take care of yourself - be good to yourself
and remember, you'll be missed so much!
 
Never mind. I have a box of kidneys going spare, if anyone needs one (1,500 quid a go plus postage).
 
P.S. If the principle of universal health care is affordable health care for all, then surely universal healthcare belongs to a bygone age.

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RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 2:02:14 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		the "system" is uncaring and non-personal.  it is not constantly thinking- can I screw Jane DOe. a system can fall on the stress of its own weight,. by nature a system is inflexable.

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RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 2:04:04 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Hi sappatoti... I did not see your post but I agree with you there has to be reform and regulation...and immediate arbitration or we will be no better than the present system.

Butch

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RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 2:09:16 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		The whole thing is that Healthcare shouldn't be a "business."
There shouldn't be any *profit* in it.
Again, we need to outlaw "Lobbyists" in Washington, D.C.
Big Pharma has them, the Insurance companies have them even the AMA has them!

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

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RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 2:17:34 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

The whole thing is that Healthcare shouldn't be a "business."
There shouldn't be any *profit* in it.
Again, we need to outlaw "Lobbyists" in Washington, D.C.
Big Pharma has them, the Insurance companies have them even the AMA has them!


Popeye… My poor doctor works 7 days a week… always on call… around sickness all day long.  It took him years and years and a lot of money for his education. If he did not make good money I’m sure he would pick another profession.

I sure don’t begrudge Doctors and nurses their money… but I do think insurance and pharmaceutical companies take advantage of the physical misfortune of others.


Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 1/30/2008 2:18:13 PM >

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RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 2:21:08 PM   
Chrisdeb7478


Posts: 23
Joined: 3/28/2007
Status: offline 		I'ld have to agree on that. My other half is on disablity. If we had to pay out of pocket for his meds it would be around $1,000 a month beyond the $90/ now biweekly doctor visits . I think health care would be goosd but it will be hard to make affordable to all

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RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 2:23:18 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		dont get me wrong Kittinsol - I'd rather have our system with all its problems than have nothing. My point was that the US needs to research it and plan it to avoid our problems.

My brother would have died at age 11 from diabetes without the NHS.
My dad would have died from his injuries in a motorbike accident at age 37 without the NHS. Right now he has angina which wouldnt be treated without the NHS (even though his appointments get cancelled repeatedly!)
I would have been crippled by arthritis at age 20 without the NHS, and likely dead from pneumonia as a complication by 22.

Because there is no way on Earth that my family could have paid for any of the treatment any of us got and still get.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 2:30:28 PM   
Gwynvyd


Posts: 4949
Status: offline 		I think insurance companies should be held to better standards, and should cover every thing that is actualy medicaly nessasary. If a Dr. Signs off on it... by gods they should cover it. I pay about $750 on my side of things for insurance for my family ( plus taxes on that insurance.. don't get me started again) Mind you We have damn good insurance. When I was out of work for a couple of months and had to wait for this to kick in.. I was at my wits end.. and could not afford my scripts, or my sons. I have *no idea* how people get along with out insurance.

As with everything with our govt and doing anything for the peoples greater good.. we have to do it in baby steps. I think Regulating the bloody hell out of insurance companies. *making* them treat people.. and Making them lower insurance payments would be a great start. Also funding vouchers for those who can not pay so much ( I will take one thanks!) and covering any child under 18 who's parents simply can not afford it. I agree with allowing a child to stay on the parents insurance until 25, or out of school.

Simply making it accessable to everyone would be nice.. We won't be able to pass it through as universal free health care.. thats simply too radical. But I think it might have a chance if some reforms and discounts were in place.

As much as I hate Don't ask don't tell.. it was a hell of a lot better then being court martialed and numerous other lovely things on site, or simply being disallowed to join up and serve. Mind you it is still a witch hunt... but it has come a long way.

baby steps

Gwyn

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Be the kinda woman that when your feet hit the floor in the morning the Devil says "Oh shit, shes awake..."
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RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 2:40:24 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Lady E i dont think its possible to research and plan for the long term, say more than 20 years ahead. Reason being we cant tell what new diseases or health problems will occur or the impact they will have. The problems with the NHS vary from trust to trust, for example i live in an area with a very high proportion of elderly people, so my local hospitals have to aim more towards age specific problems. People need to remember the NHS isnt just about hospitals, it also covers GPs and Dentists. Overall its a pretty good service.

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RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 2:42:02 PM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		As it stands, it's hard to imagine the US ever accepting the personal tax burdens of care for all. But you're right DBG and I hope things change there.

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RE: a rant: goodbye universal health care - 1/30/2008 2:45:39 PM   
Gwynvyd


Posts: 4949
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

The whole thing is that Healthcare shouldn't be a "business."
There shouldn't be any *profit* in it.
Again, we need to outlaw "Lobbyists" in Washington, D.C.
Big Pharma has them, the Insurance companies have them even the AMA has them!


Popeye… My poor doctor works 7 days a week… always on call… around sickness all day long.  It took him years and years and a lot of money for his education. If he did not make good money I’m sure he would pick another profession.

I sure don’t begrudge Doctors and nurses their money… but I do think insurance and pharmaceutical companies take advantage of the physical misfortune of others.


Butch


I agree with you here.. most healthcare costs are not the Dr's and nurses themselves.. Gods knows we do not pay Nurses nearly enough for the work they do... and Dr's go through years of higher education, make tough decisons work long hours.. and pay out the ass for liabilty insurance on top of that. I would not begrudge them a Dime. ~ esp. the nurses.

Hospitals charge you that $6 for a tylenol because so many others simply do not pay thier bills or have insurance. Yeppers.. it gets passed on to you. See the vicious cycle here? ( I have a friend in hopsitial billing who explained it to me when I wigged out at my bill one time)
Our lovely govt has allowed the Pharm. co's to buy them lock stock and barrel. ( I agree with No Lobbyists!)
Americans are charged many times over for our drugs what they are charged in other countries. ( look at Canada) The other countires got smart and regulated the lil bastards! Why in the hell didnt our Govt? Um.. because they are lining pockets in Washington.
http://help.senate.gov/Hearings/2005_02_17/Aldonas-SenHELP-Rx-2-17-05.pdf 

Even when you look at just one drug the effects are obvious.

This is a study on the prices for manufacturing, the wholesale, and the retail prices of AZT ( a treatment drug for AIDS) in many countries.
http://www.haiweb.org/campaign/novseminar/schulte_text.html

Just something to ponder on.

Gwyn


_____________________________

Self avowed Geek-Girl~
Come for the boobs, stay for the brains.

Be the kinda woman that when your feet hit the floor in the morning the Devil says "Oh shit, shes awake..."
~ Softandshy's "Shiney"

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