RE: hard limit (Full Version)

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hopelessfool -> RE: hard limit (2/3/2008 10:38:50 PM)

Magic,

Theres great advice on this thread, and you are right a hard limit is a hard limit. While your owner might, or might not have been openly trying to decieve you, you must decide. I know I can not handle a poly relationship due to my own immaturity. I was confronted with someone who met most of my wants and needs in an owner, and he didnt openly communicate (or I missed it due to my own wants to not hear it) his involvement with another female. After a session the next was to be with his girl, I told him I was not comfortable, he and I talked, she and I talked. I knew even if I tried it and might have liked it. It wouldnt work until I got the kinks settled out with me. If hes not communicating something with you its fishy. If you hate fish like I do ( Allergic reactions) Its time painful or not, to sit back re-evaluate and go, if  I do this will it change me in a way I do not want to be changed. Can I accept everything that goes along with this change. If things do not work on with us. What will happen to me, what will happen to my ( I believe the non thread pulling term is) UM. Reality, If you cant take the change explain this to him, let him know  that this will not work because of such, and move on. Give yourself time to heal, eat a cookie or several cookies, (At least two one for you one for me.) And get back out there and search for one compatible with you.

As for hard limits, I classify them, Ones that are because of emotional trauma, ones because of my own disdain/fear (Not just Im scared but panic causing fear). And ones that aren't really hard, but not really soft either. The ones that are semi-hard can be pushed with caution with out a Woah! Hold on step back a minute.

Alas Its just my two cents.. (Does anyone have change for a quarter?)
-Kitten



LunaticDesign -> RE: hard limit (2/3/2008 10:47:28 PM)

can I have a cookie too?

and to answer your question no but I can make change for 25cents



Erotomania -> RE: hard limit (2/3/2008 11:53:03 PM)

I'm fairly certain that LD is merely attempting to point out his own opinion, and gather enough information to be sure of what he says on the subject before saying anything else. I'm sure everyone here can understand the desire to be sure of what they are saying, before it leaves their mouth.. Or, in this case, before they post the message. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and there's nothing wrong with trying to vailidate that opinion, or explain their reasoning for it. If anything, LD should be commended for attempting to understand another's point of view before making a definitive response, rather than making assumptions without gathering information. When his opinion was challenged, and with no apparant intention of being sure of his views, he attempted to discover that person's own views, with the intent of discussing the difference and understanding that person's own opinion.

I can see no reason why anyone should have responded to his comments with such closeminded criticism, without trying to validate their reasons for it or discover his own reasons for believing his opinion to be true. I'm of the opinion that if he was truly wrong in any capacity someone should have given him a valid reason why, rather than jumping to assume one thing or another about his views. Lack of education and misinformation are two of the most unfortunate and prevailant issues within the BDSM community. Rather than putting down another's opinion, be it valid, invalid, or in fact just a matter of opinion in itself and neither right or wrong, the parties involved should be trying to educate him, rather than essentially 'flame' his posts and make him seem like a pompous, no-limits jerk (which is what, in my OPINION, seems to be certain people's goal in replying to his posts.)

Not to be redundant, but I feel like I should point out once more than everyone is entitled to their own opinion.. And judging someone based on that opinion rather than discussing it seems a tad bit immature.

Just my own two cents.

-Jynxx



RCdc -> RE: hard limit (2/4/2008 1:49:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LunaticDesign

"Of course a slave does not have limits (excepting the ones clearly defined in precontract negotiation)"


Hello Lunatic
The thing is, that there are submissives and pets etc out there who define their limits pre-'contract' and then have that old term 'no limits'(which is an oxymoron, seeing as having no limits is a limit in itself)once the relationship is established, it's not just a slave thang.  Whilst the above is your opinion, and you stated that, you have also gone on to say that the definition stands in books etc which is obviously the case but the books may be as useful as sticky tape on an ice cube - the only difference between me, and some slaves, is that neither Darcy and I like the context of the word and so would not identify myself with it.  Submissive people submit, slaves submit - just because one is a slave doesn't negate self responsibilty nor does it make it impossible to say no at any time - that is the fantasy version that people can throw up to make abuse seemingly consensual.
 
the.dark.



MmeGigs -> RE: hard limit (2/4/2008 4:42:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: MmeGigs
Try seeing this from his perspective.  You have said that there is no compromise on this issue for you - he must move to your point of view.  If poly is part of who he is, like monogamy is part of who you are, you're really asking quite a lot of him but you don't seem to be acknowledging that.  While I don't think it was your intention to do so, you've issued an ultimatum.  If he can't make an absolute commitment to monogamy, his only choice is to leave.  It could be that he's not giving you a clear answer because he's still trying to figure it out, or doesn't like the answer he's come up with and is trying to find some other way. 


Total and utter bullshit.
 
If he was poly, he should have been clear to her in the first place.
If he was poly and agreed to monogamy he accepted responsibility of that decision and now follows it through, not change when it's too late for her to turn back.
Giving him a slight *yay* for at least indicating his preference before she is in a strange country yes - but don't shift the whole 'well your making him change' crap at her.
 
He is the one at fault here by denying his polyamourous leanings and pretending he can be something he isn't.  And yes there is blame when he wont communicate to her a clear message.  Shes been up front from the start - he is the one now walking along the line and not sure what border to cross... which sucks when there are others involved.  If he is trying to figure out a solution then at least he should give her that as an answer.  He hasn't - he is simply waiting for her to make the choice for him.
 
the.dark.

 
There are two sides to every dispute, and it's rare that one side is completely at fault.  I assumed that she was trying to work things out with the fellow, so that's what I spoke to.  If that's what she's trying to do, taking a stance that he is completely to blame and that resolving the issue is totally on his shoulders (even if that were the case, which I think is questionable here) pretty much guarantees that her efforts will fail.  If she's interested in finding a solution she's going to have to try to understand his side of the issue. 
 
Personally, I doubt it can be worked out, but I think the advice I gave was still good.  She's going to be in a better place to move on and look for a new partner if she accepts some responsibility for the problem (apparently neither of them were clear about their needs in this area early on or it wouldn't be such a big deal now) and avoids laying blame.  "We weren't right for each other" is a much more positive place to regroup from than "He did this awful thing to me."  The former puts one's head in a constructive place and lets the situation stay in that relationship.  The latter tends to keep one bitter and drags the situation into future relationships.
 
If everyone here were to agree that she has been poorly done by and the guy is completely to blame, she's still in the same spot and no closer to a resolution.  Actually, it could put her in a worse spot if she's trying to work this out - she may be more sure of her rightness and his wrongness and less willing to listen.  Then again, it could put her in a better spot, helping force an end to it rather than dragging things out.
 
I tried to give her different way to look at the problem and a more constructive way to deal with it.  Whether she succeeds in working this out with her partner or not, she is going to be in a better place emotionally if she can drop the blame and bitterness.  I think that doing that now, while she can talk to him about it and get a real understanding of where things are and why they've worked out as they have, will help her get closure on the situation and move on more happily, with or without him.
 
Maybe he is a jerk and is just waiting for her to make the decision for him.  I still think she's going to be in a better place to make that decision if she can drop the blame and focus what she needs to do to take care of herself - what is going to be best for her.



cherrypez -> RE: hard limit (2/4/2008 5:14:41 AM)

      I think personally that the couple has to have their own definition of what a hard limit is.    I believe that what defines a hard limit for a person, takes time.   I have changed a great many of my hard limits to soft limits or have decided that they are not limits at all.   Some hard limits can change as a person grows and changes.  
   



RCdc -> RE: hard limit (2/4/2008 5:31:19 AM)

Everyone is going to have a diferent pov - absolutely.
In this case, I find that you are wrong - and we agree to disagree.
 
I will disagree also that your advice and different pov and advice is no more constructive a way to look at things than the thoughts that I - or anyone else gave.  To imply it is 'more' constructive is balderdash at its finest.  It's not better, or more constructive, it is simply a different way and just as subject to flaws and problems as any other persons thoughts and view on a subject.
 
Everyone recommended communication.  If he is failing to communicate its worthless to place blame.  No one was doing that.  Saying he was a ass and a fool, maybe - but no one is placing 'blame' persay.
 
the.dark.



magicone -> RE: hard limit (2/4/2008 5:36:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MmeGigs




There are two sides to every dispute, and it's rare that one side is completely at fault.  I assumed that she was trying to work things out with the fellow, so that's what I spoke to.  If that's what she's trying to do, taking a stance that he is completely to blame and that resolving the issue is totally on his shoulders (even if that were the case, which I think is questionable here) pretty much guarantees that her efforts will fail.  If she's interested in finding a solution she's going to have to try to understand his side of the issue. 
 
Personally, I doubt it can be worked out, but I think the advice I gave was still good.  She's going to be in a better place to move on and look for a new partner if she accepts some responsibility for the problem (apparently neither of them were clear about their needs in this area early on or it wouldn't be such a big deal now) and avoids laying blame.  "We weren't right for each other" is a much more positive place to regroup from than "He did this awful thing to me."  The former puts one's head in a constructive place and lets the situation stay in that relationship.  The latter tends to keep one bitter and drags the situation into future relationships.
 
If everyone here were to agree that she has been poorly done by and the guy is completely to blame, she's still in the same spot and no closer to a resolution.  Actually, it could put her in a worse spot if she's trying to work this out - she may be more sure of her rightness and his wrongness and less willing to listen.  Then again, it could put her in a better spot, helping force an end to it rather than dragging things out.
 
I tried to give her different way to look at the problem and a more constructive way to deal with it.  Whether she succeeds in working this out with her partner or not, she is going to be in a better place emotionally if she can drop the blame and bitterness.  I think that doing that now, while she can talk to him about it and get a real understanding of where things are and why they've worked out as they have, will help her get closure on the situation and move on more happily, with or without him.
 
Maybe he is a jerk and is just waiting for her to make the decision for him.  I still think she's going to be in a better place to make that decision if she can drop the blame and focus what she needs to do to take care of herself - what is going to be best for her.



i would like to give my two cents in here too ,-))
of course like always - there are at least to sides of a coin....
like i told before - this negoation was settled in the early stage before a relation was taken.
beside i am not bitter ,-)) neither i blame anyone...
everyone is entitled to change the mind - nothing wrong with that....
but its up to me than to decide what i gonna do... especially cause i have responsibility to a kid and i do take this responsibility very seriuos... first priority period!
i rather like working things out with my partner/ Dom... but thats just me
cause even in a D/s relation... first of all it is still a relationship......
and being honest a compromise on being in an open relationship or a monogamous one just does not exist.

.. beside that in the meantime W/we talked about finally ,-))

thanks a lot for all the advice - i appreciat a lot

p



MmeGigs -> RE: hard limit (2/4/2008 4:33:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: magicone

and being honest a compromise on being in an open relationship or a monogamous one just does not exist.



Sad but true.  I think that there are a lot of couples who would still be together if there was an easy answer to this one. 

I'm sorry if I sounded harsh in my response to you.  I empathize with your situation.  It sucks when it's all so good except that one dealbreaking thing.  Been there, done that.

Take care.  I hope things work out well for you.



whiteslavebitch -> RE: hard limit (2/4/2008 5:17:06 PM)

For me hard limits are non-negotiable, never to be discussed again. end of story.



MmeGigs -> RE: hard limit (2/4/2008 6:08:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Everyone is going to have a diferent pov - absolutely.
In this case, I find that you are wrong - and we agree to disagree.
 
I will disagree also that your advice and different pov and advice is no more constructive a way to look at things than the thoughts that I - or anyone else gave.  To imply it is 'more' constructive is balderdash at its finest.  It's not better, or more constructive, it is simply a different way and just as subject to flaws and problems as any other persons thoughts and view on a subject.
 
Everyone recommended communication.  If he is failing to communicate its worthless to place blame.  No one was doing that.  Saying he was a ass and a fool, maybe - but no one is placing 'blame' persay.
 
the.dark.

 
I'm new to the collar me message boards, and I apologize if I stepped on any toes.  I'm kind of surprised at your comments, though.  "Total and utter bullshit" and "balderdash" don't sound like "agree to disagree" to me, but I'm not going to get all wound up about it.  I've been participating in kinky discussion groups for many years, and I've got thick skin.  ;) 
 



PavlovTrainer -> RE: hard limit (2/4/2008 6:10:15 PM)

I wasn't going to comment because my thoughts had already been stated in general. But the fact that you're in Germany and he's in the US is a HUGE red flag. If he's so interested in you, let him come to you first. Moving anywhere without at least one meeting is potential emotional suicide.

Tell him that you won't talk to him about monogomy ever again..... or anything else for that matter.

John



meticulousgirl -> RE: hard limit (2/4/2008 6:26:19 PM)

5 years ago i started out with a very long list of "hard limits" today and for the last 3 years i have had none except the one that states unless this is forever, i get no permanant marks......

and if He wanted to permanantly mark me....i would accept it, that's how much love, trust and respect i have for Him.....He has every ounce of my being and knows it.

In all honesty it just depends where you are at and what you are ready for physically and mentally.  If your really not comfortable with it, then sit down and talk to Him and say i'm not ready yet that doesn't mean it wont be a never but, for now it's a no, not at this time because, i just dont feel like i'm ready for that yet.

~meticulous~



Hotch -> RE: hard limit (2/4/2008 8:45:15 PM)

You have a pushy Dom is what I think and if your wishes are not being respected then you need to take action to redress the problem.  That being said, it seems like half the profiles on this site have "hard limits" that are nothing more then activities the person currently finds distasteful.  IMO hard limits should only be attached to activities that violate core moral values... or death.



RCdc -> RE: hard limit (2/5/2008 3:29:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MmeGigs
I'm new to the collar me message boards, and I apologize if I stepped on any toes.  I'm kind of surprised at your comments, though.  "Total and utter bullshit" and "balderdash" don't sound like "agree to disagree" to me, but I'm not going to get all wound up about it.  I've been participating in kinky discussion groups for many years, and I've got thick skin.  ;) 
 


Is all cool, no toes stepped on as far as I can see and if it was a case of agree to disagree, I would say that.  Thick skins always good around here !  And welcome to CM.
 
the.dark.



onestandingstill -> RE: hard limit (2/5/2008 4:50:44 AM)

I say if this man's trying to convince you he wants to see others that he will probably do that with or without your consent or knowledge.

People who want an open relationship are seldom able to be monogamous & people who prefer monogamy rarely can be open.

I would not move away from my home country to live with a man who's trying to push in a direction you don't want to go in.
I wouldn't uproot my kid for this chance.
suzanne



Ebonybbw -> RE: hard limit (2/8/2008 4:18:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: magicone

Darcy and the dark

i already did - writing a letter, trying to talk, not pushing - asking him when he has time - and able to give me an answer.
no reaction.... he let me hang in there...
i feel really betrayed cause the whole issue came up directly one day after i quitted my house - we have contracts here in germany too ,-))
fact is - if i am in states.. with a kid.. and there is just one chance i am on his whim.
it is a hard limit for me.. period. i do not have to find excuses why or why not...
a hard limit should be respected in my eyes.
in considering that my life will gonna change and most important the life of my kid i do have responsibility it is just necessary to know a clear statement i can trust on...
or may i am so nut???


It sounds like you are taking a big step and you have rights to feel unsure.  It is not just yourself that you are risking here but also your child's emotional and physical safety.  I feel your Master has not answered you because he doesn't want to and moreso because he doesn't feel the "monogamous" thing... 



Nineveh -> RE: hard limit (2/8/2008 4:46:54 PM)

It depends on what is meant by hard limit between the two of you.  Generally if someone tells me that he has a hard limit I am not even going to go near it.  I expect that if she wanted it to be pushed she would have told me it was a soft limit.  Now there is always room in a relaitonship for limits to expand and change, and that is something that should be discussed sometimes. But if Hard limits are being pushed without discussion that strikes me as a disrespectful violation of trust.



DesFIP -> RE: hard limit (2/8/2008 9:56:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LunaticDesign

Of course a slave does not have limits (excepting the ones clearly defined in precontract negotiation) that is the purpose for having diffrent words for similar things. A submissive is some one who still retains the power to say "no". A slave is someone who doesn't want the power to say "no". I am speaking of course about the actual roles and not refering to pet names you and your partner might have.



Sorry, but that is not so. If a slave develops heart disease and has a pacemaker put in, then she is going to limit electic play. And if the M refuses to listen he/she will be out one slave,

The same is true if he pulls out a dog leash one day and begins wailing on her, thinking it will be a new and novel sensation. If she suddenly goes catatonic, and it unleashes repressed memories of being beaten with one at a tender age, then she's going to add that to her hard  limits list. And rightfully.



sextoygirlNY -> RE: hard limit (2/9/2008 3:41:26 AM)

greetings magicone,

the question i would have is your hard limit is based on fear of the unknown, or damaging moral and ethical issues...

Example:
Hard Limit-"I do not have unprotected sex with HIV positive people"
vs
Hard Limit-"I do not do suspension"

now here is the question, these two can genuinely be "hard limits" but which one can be tested, tried, and explored??? Thats where the definition of limits come into place.  Is something a limit because of fear of not knowing, or because of an incident being implanted in your mind not to do that particular activity.
Breaking the fear, coming through fear, and testing those types of limits are very empowering and there is a great sense of accomplishment once it is overcome.

I used to have a genuine fear of gags. In fact first time i was ever gagged hyperventilated, now Master can stick whatever the hell he wants in my mouth, (no pun intended..lol) Its a limit that i overcame that he tested, and i succeeded!! How wonderful i feel that i was able to explore that....

So magic, it really does depend on what the hard limit is, you have discussed it, you are exploring it, as long as there is patience, time and understanding it should be fine.
wishes you well,
melanie



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