RE: Are women born to be bitches? (Full Version)

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RCdc -> RE: Are women born to be bitches? (2/8/2008 4:19:01 AM)

quote:



Men and a few women dont understand these strong bonds that women can have whith each other. Women Feel so deeply and emotionally. Their love for each other is strong and so are all the feelings that are brought forth in us through others words and opinions.


This is Darcy
 
I have to say I think this statement is, pardon my French, complete bollocks.
 
I am a man, and I understand perfectly the bonds that exist between friends, and have bonds and emotional ties with friends, both male and female, than run very, very deep and are are very strong. I am closer to these friends than to my own family, and as much as I love, cherish and adore the.dark.  if one of my friends really needed me to be there then I would, unquestioningly and unconditionally.
 
There is a popular misconception that all women are soooo close to their friends, and that all men are only capable of shallow bonds with their friends, and that they can only be friends with a woman if they secretly want to shag them, but this is simply not the case.
 
I'm sure you're an intelligent woman, but statements like the one quoted suggest that you don't really understand men at all, as not all of us are the same, in the way that not all women are the same. Some men are morons, it's true, and don't get the strength and depth that true friendships can deliver, but equally there are women who have trouble walking and talking in tandem, let alone understand anything beyond the complications of opening a bottle of nail polish or changing the TV channel. We can't, male or female, all be tarred with the same brush.
 
I can't speak for any other man on this board, but my friendships run every bit as deep and strong as any women's, and I'm not afraid to declare my love for my friends, and that I would die, lie or even kill for the closest of them.
 
This isn't a personal attack, I don't know you well enough to judge whether you are worthy of my interest or not, merely an observation on your statement. My regards to your Master.



lusciouslips19 -> RE: Are women born to be bitches? (2/8/2008 4:35:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

Wow! Thanks for disliking me in such a polite manner.
Really this discussion was based on the thread between you and kittensol. You said the thread made you wonder if you subconsciously stayed away from women because they are bitches. Again, I am paraphrasing. Because of course, you are so above that frey..of being a bitch. I'm sure saying you are not interested in me in the least was'nt being bitchy, just polite and honest.

Kittensol evoked a thought in you about maybe staying away from women friendship because of what you percieve as I guess their failings. What you had said about staying away from women consciously or subconsciously evoked quite alot of negative memory in me. it evoked the memory a some mean women. It evoked the memory of a woman bartender at a restaurant I worked at for a short period of time telling me to my face that she thought all women were bithces(except her). She thought women waitstaff were "sloppy". Yes, Its hard to look neat in a tuxedo shirt with those pesky breasts and the fact that women iron their own uniform.

Some women seem to think they have to seperate themselves from other women in an elitist attitude. The QueenBee syndrome of "I am better than all of you ",attitude. frankly, I think that stinks. So whether you intended it that way or not, the fact that you could even hint at the fact that you may seperate yourself from other women, it evoked a bad feeling in me and perhaps in others too.

i never said that men and women dont love having each other in their lives. We adore each other and I NEVER implied otherwise.


I do not very often post entire quotes when they are long, but as you are in the habit of going back and re-edditing your initial words, I have done so on this occasion.
Honestly, what you wrote about the queen bee?  You already have already done.
And here is another prime example of why I rarely respond to any of your posts and made an exception in this one thread.  Because you go off on one.  Because it always comes down to you, you, you.  But not because you are a woman.  Because you are you.  You have problems with someone in your past - what did I say before?  I don't care.  Use whatever excuse you want, it doesn't make you any less responsible for your behaviour.  I don't blame my past on what I do today.  It shaped me and moulded me, but use it as an explaination?
 
So, you made it personal and that is what it comes down to.  It wasn't -  I was repeating how your posts came across and discussing them with you -  which obviously was a waste of time - or maybe not, other people are reading this hey.
 
I have never once claimed not to be a bitch.  I have never claimed to be above any other female or seperated myself from them, if you go back, you will see the concluesion I reached in the discussion with kittin.  It isn't my thread as you implied, it was kittinsol and I simply responded, just like countless others.  As I have said before, I like both kittin and red and enjoy both their postings and the abilities they have.
 
You have called me a bitch.  Yes, I am perfectly comfortable to be called that.  I do not see it as such the horrid turn of phrase others do.  You believe what I wrote to be 'polite bitching'?  I don't do polite bitching, I do my own thoughts on a subject, I do directness, but not polite bitching.  If I do bitch - I do it.  Make no doubt there.
Just because I say I have no inclination to know you, that's 'polite bitching'?  What if I was a man saying that?  Or does it come down to the fact that because I am female you are imposing bitchiness on me?
 
So what it all comes down to - finally - is that bitchiness is simply another word for saying 'disagree'?
Now, that, I would disagree with - but would that make me a bitch?
Or does the fact that I said 'would that make me a bitch' - make others assume I was being bitchy?
 
The case continues...


Again completely misreading my intentions. yes it evoked negativity in me but I never took your statement about women as a personal attack against me. i took it as a sperating yourself from other women because you above "all that". i dont know how you think I think it's about "me me me". I do find it offensive that you take things i say and make giant leaps from me saying one thing about bonds with women to me thinking it was personal. All I did was disagree with your conclusions. The fact of the matter is our relationships(with other women) can ( focus on can not is absolutely) be very contentious filled with great love and hate that circle back round to love. These bonds have been written about in countless books.



RCdc -> RE: Are women born to be bitches? (2/8/2008 4:42:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19
The fact of the matter is our relationships(with other women) can ( focus on can not is absolutely) be very contentious filled with great love and hate that circle back round to love. These bonds have been written about in countless books.


Being female doesn't make them stand out in the great scheme of things.  So these 'bonds' are written about in books, so have other bonds in countless other books, both fictional and fact.  Just because we are female, doesn't make them any more understood or any 'better' or 'different' because they are female.  It's us as individuals that do that, not the sex or orientation we are.
 
the.dark.



lusciouslips19 -> RE: Are women born to be bitches? (2/8/2008 4:47:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:



Men and a few women dont understand these strong bonds that women can have whith each other. Women Feel so deeply and emotionally. Their love for each other is strong and so are all the feelings that are brought forth in us through others words and opinions.


This is Darcy
 
I have to say I think this statement is, pardon my French, complete bollocks.
 
I am a man, and I understand perfectly the bonds that exist between friends, and have bonds and emotional ties with friends, both male and female, than run very, very deep and are are very strong. I am closer to these friends than to my own family, and as much as I love, cherish and adore the.dark.  if one of my friends really needed me to be there then I would, unquestioningly and unconditionally.
 
There is a popular misconception that all women are soooo close to their friends, and that all men are only capable of shallow bonds with their friends, and that they can only be friends with a woman if they secretly want to shag them, but this is simply not the case.
 
I'm sure you're an intelligent woman, but statements like the one quoted suggest that you don't really understand men at all, as not all of us are the same, in the way that not all women are the same. Some men are morons, it's true, and don't get the strength and depth that true friendships can deliver, but equally there are women who have trouble walking and talking in tandem, let alone understand anything beyond the complications of opening a bottle of nail polish or changing the TV channel. We can't, male or female, all be tarred with the same brush.
 
I can't speak for any other man on this board, but my friendships run every bit as deep and strong as any women's, and I'm not afraid to declare my love for my friends, and that I would die, lie or even kill for the closest of them.
 
This isn't a personal attack, I don't know you well enough to judge whether you are worthy of my interest or not, merely an observation on your statement. My regards to your Master.



All I said is that men do not often understand woman. That is not the same as not having good relationships with them or adoring them. I dont know how many times I have to say this before i am listened too. I never said men wouldnt die for their friends or they dont love deeply.

I am not taking anything you or your S.O say personally. How I am being percieved is not my problem. I am not the one taking things personally. I have nothing against anyone and when I tell my opinion, its just that. I also would never dream of telling someone they are not worthy of responding to anymore or that they are or their opinion is unimportant. honestly, it rolls off my back and I could easliy share a cocktail with anyone here, without any ill feelings.



RCdc -> RE: Are women born to be bitches? (2/8/2008 7:32:16 AM)

You made a statement.  You are now changing it.  Saying that men do not understand women is completely different to men don't often understand women.  Again, I still disagree with both statements.
How you are percieved is your problem, how can you not fathom that?  So it is everyone elses problem?  And how you react is other peoples fault because of the way they treated you?

quote:

I also would never dream of telling someone they are not worthy of responding to anymore or that they are or their opinion is unimportant.


That's cool, no one claimed you did.
Me?  I wouldn't share a cocktail with simply 'anyone', because I would much rather spend time with the people I love, like and in Darcys' case, worship.
 
the.dark.



Aswad -> RE: Are women born to be bitches? (2/8/2008 8:16:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Many of us seem to loose much time battling with one another instead of pursuing our individual goals, I completely agree.


Actually, this is one of the things I have forwarded as one of the explanations as to how patriarchy was established in the first place.

Add the appropriate disclaimers about generalizations and speculations to the following...

Men work together by default, and conflicts are quickly resolved. Kind of like that old saying about how men forget but never forgive, while women forgive but never forget. Also, it seems that low-intensity violence is first and foremost a way to "get something out of your system" for men; a catharsis thing. For more serious things, duels have been common throughout history, while murder and firing people tends to fill that role nowadays. Hardly admirable from a humanist position, but certainly something that has worked.

Women tend to get locked into a conflict more easily, and try to gain the upper hand by taking the other person down, rather than by elevating themselves. There is something curiously illustrative about a theme we often see here on CollarMe: someone posts about how they are in a relationship with a man, and he has another woman on the side, or some variation thereof. Instead of realizing that he is the bastard they should be ganging up on, the vitriol is reserved for the other woman. Similarly, as noted in the Slut Manifesto and other places, the objectification of the female genitalia originates with women themselves, as they make it an object of commerce and try to control the market through culture. (Labels like "slut," "whore" and so forth are mimicked by men, but not originated by them.)

It took women working together to realize suffrage, while men did that all along.

There is a fair bit of evidence that we started out as a matriarchal species, so one has to wonder: did men suddenly decide to rise up and overturn the social order completely in some grand design on power, or did women just drop the ball at some point, and then stood around arguing about it for a few millenia before somebody noted that they should get on with the ballgame?

Health,
al-Aswad.



Aswad -> RE: Are women born to be bitches? (2/8/2008 8:29:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Now that I'm getting older, I FEAR the signs of ageing, whilst my brother and other youngish males don't even think about it.


Men are biologically wired to go for the age range 14-24 years... but that's when they're thinking with their cock.

Ideas of beauty and appeal are cultural; most men in the west will think a tribal woman with a mile-high neck looks anything but attractive. Personally, if I have a look at the cover of Desperate Housewives, I see exactly two attractive women there. And they are the older ones (i.e. Lynette and Bree). The rest look good, but they have no presence to them. Given these major differences in how appearance and attractiveness is perceived, and the demonstrated cultural variance, it becomes an interesting question why men are often viewed as growing more attractive as they age, while women are viewed as if their attractiveness depended on youth.

Or, more interestingly, where does the idea that an old woman is unattractive originate?

Health,
al-Aswad.



kittinSol -> RE: Are women born to be bitches? (2/8/2008 8:44:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Many of us seem to loose much time battling with one another instead of pursuing our individual goals, I completely agree.


Actually, this is one of the things I have forwarded as one of the explanations as to how patriarchy was established in the first place.



Yes, as women are busy holding grudges and fighting pettily (NOT prettily) the guys get on with the program, even after they've disagreed.

quote:



(...) low-intensity violence is first and foremost a way to "get something out of your system" for men; a catharsis thing. For more serious things, duels have been common throughout history, while murder and firing people tends to fill that role nowadays. Hardly admirable from a humanist position, but certainly something that has worked.



Perhaps a small level of organised violence acts as a catharsis for conflict resolution, or in general, it helps defuse people's aggressive streak (we all have testosterone in our system, women and men). That's what charmedpet and others have been discussing with the mud wrestling (not my bag of tea, but that's not the point). Do you think that women have been discouraged from practicing much physical activity for the very reason that society did not want them to defuse their aggressivity? Could this be why chicks are far more likely to muse over things and to harbour resentments, for the very reason that as their male peers act it out on the football/rugby/soccer pitch in teams, the sports they tend to practice are mostly as individuals and still against each other?

quote:



Women tend to get locked into a conflict more easily, and try to gain the upper hand by taking the other person down, rather than by elevating themselves.



Why though?

quote:



There is something curiously illustrative about a theme we often see here on CollarMe: someone posts about how they are in a relationship with a man, and he has another woman on the side, or some variation thereof. Instead of realizing that he is the bastard they should be ganging up on, the vitriol is reserved for the other woman.



I'm glad you observed something which is very much obvious to me. Similarily, if a married woman is cheated on by her husband, she will reserve most of her venom for the other woman, not for her husband even though he was, after all, the one who broke his promise.

quote:



Similarly, as noted in the Slut Manifesto and other places, the objectification of the female genitalia originates with women themselves, as they make it an object of commerce and try to control the market through culture. (Labels like "slut," "whore" and so forth are mimicked by men, but not originated by them.)



Are you talking about 'ownership of the cunt' and other apology (as in 'edification of something') for prostitution? That's worthy of a thread all of its own :-) .

quote:



It took women working together to realize suffrage, while men did that all along.



To be fair... the system was already in place that ensured it would take women superhuman will to overcome its restrictions. Otherwise, yes, they did work together, and here are the origins of feminism, I think: women realised that isolation could only do them disservice, and that only by working together could they fight for their rights successfully. Other oppressed groups have come to the same conclusions.

quote:



(...) did men suddenly decide to rise up and overturn the social order completely in some grand design on power, or did women just drop the ball at some point, and then stood around arguing about it for a few millenia before somebody noted that they should get on with the ballgame?



They were placated by their biology; having 12, 14, 15 pregnancies in one lifetime, beginning in early adolescence, is a sure way to make a person stay away from the public sphere. Perhaps they were too busy with the ball game inside their bellies to have the energy to fight for the ball game outside of it?



Aswad -> RE: Are women born to be bitches? (2/8/2008 8:55:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I abhor it, and wish women could show more solidarity and friendship towards each other.


Right... and men can show solidarity and friendship with each other.
Or... people can show solidarity and friendship with people.

Not exactly a novel idea, but it doesn't seem to be catching on among people of either gender. Perhaps because not nuking each other into the stone age is as good as solidarity and friendship gets, unless there is some common ground upon which to build that. And being a woman doesn't seem to provide a lot more common ground than being a human (incidentally, I think that can be interpreted as a good thing, as it lends a certain credibility to that whole "I am a human" idea).

Health,
al-Aswad.



RCdc -> RE: Are women born to be bitches? (2/8/2008 9:07:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Or... people can show solidarity and friendship with people.



Now see that idea completely rocks.  But you rarely get people talking on the common ground that they are human.  If aliens flew down today and tried to take over the world, people would want to kick the aliens arse, take over mars and still fight each others as well for *insertwhatevereasonitmightbehere*.

quote:

 
Perhaps because not nuking each other into the stone age is as good as solidarity and friendship gets, unless there is some common ground upon which to build that.



And that, Aswad is where I see the fatal flaw.  People like to be 'special'... it is ingrained into infants from birth.  You have to be a certain way, get the good grades, belong to a certain soroity or fraternity, group or the best school, because somehow, that makes you belong - but different from the masses.  People embrace to concept of being in a 'group' and united, as long as it is exclusive.  So how do you encorage people not to want the exclusive part?
 
 
the.dark. 



MissMorrigan -> RE: Are women born to be bitches? (2/8/2008 9:13:58 AM)

Your philosophising is phenomenal. While I agree with you wholeheartedly, I see a problem. Remove the focus on gender and people cease being a Dick/Vagina with an ego, we'll have to find another focus. People have a tendency to want to be set aside as an example and it feeds the pseudo elitism monster. So how can people be trained to interact as people without the focus being on gender?
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
Right... and men can show solidarity and friendship with each other.
Or... people can show solidarity and friendship with people.

Not exactly a novel idea, but it doesn't seem to be catching on among people of either gender. Perhaps because not nuking each other into the stone age is as good as solidarity and friendship gets, unless there is some common ground upon which to build that. And being a woman doesn't seem to provide a lot more common ground than being a human (incidentally, I think that can be interpreted as a good thing, as it lends a certain credibility to that whole "I am a human" idea).

Health,
al-Aswad.




MissMorrigan -> RE: Are women born to be bitches? (2/8/2008 9:15:15 AM)

Bugger, Dark, you must have posted as I was writing mine. Similar thoughts, yours far more eloquently stated!
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark



Aswad -> RE: Are women born to be bitches? (2/8/2008 9:20:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I don't NEED to try and humiliate them, they do such a good job all by themself.


Excellent point. Reminds me of something I noted in the thread about Hilton going to jail or whatever: everyone was ecstatic about seeing her "taken down a notch." To me, that always seems petty and vindictive. It was pretty accurately described by Nietzsche in the course of dealing with the common examples of what he saw as the "slave moralitty." Defining oneself through what one is not; defining good by what is evil... always a petty inversion, complement or opposition... it is never "me," but rather "her," etc...

Anyway... you've probably read it already, but if not, it's worth having a look at.

Health,
al-Aswad.



LaTigresse -> RE: Are women born to be bitches? (2/8/2008 9:34:08 AM)

Thank you, I've not read it but it sounds interesting. 



Aswad -> RE: Are women born to be bitches? (2/8/2008 9:41:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bethylovescuddle

if all women are born to be bitches then all men are born to be sex offenders, sure there's probably a rather high percentage of potential ones on either sides but you shouldn't say all women are it ,some of us get offended"!!!!!


Well, as to men, there are actually figures on this...

3% of Danish men (prior to onset of immigration; those subpopulations have been shown elsewhere in Scandinavia to have a 6-fold higher rate) will be convicted of rape by the time they reach my age (i.e. 27). Add a bit of recidivism (may be as high as 50%), then consider that a fair number of cases go unreported, and realistically, it's bound to be in the interval 5-25% lifetime prevalence, which fits with 1 in 4 women being the victims of rape, and many rapists committing more than one rape. But we don't need to give men the benefit of the doubt, so let's just say that 1 in 5 men will rape a woman at some point. Hardly brilliant statistics.

That still makes the rapists a minority...

When it comes to bitchiness, it's a lot more subjective, and the definition is more in question.

Health,
al-Aswad.




LaTigresse -> RE: Are women born to be bitches? (2/8/2008 10:01:14 AM)

Ya, I never have minded Ronnie Ream of Ream Auto Body, calling me a bitch when we went nose to nose, toes to toes, in their front parking lot..... after they totally ruined a new car I owned.

We stopped traffic and I got cheers from an adoring public over that......



Aswad -> RE: Are women born to be bitches? (2/8/2008 10:05:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I've peaked at not building pipe bombs.


We should try that some time. I'm sure a decent model helicopter could carry one as a payload.

Quite off-topic: do you have any idea how loud the noise from a blast cap is at a distance of 50cm or so? [:D]

Health,
Guy Fawkes.



kittinSol -> RE: Are women born to be bitches? (2/8/2008 10:08:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Reminds me of something I noted in the thread about Hilton going to jail or whatever: everyone was ecstatic about seeing her "taken down a notch." To me, that always seems petty and vindictive.



I'm going to come across all bratty, but I can't be mature all the time, folks (fnar, fnar). We were together, Aswy, commenting on how bitchy and vindictive people (most of the women) were about the Hilton incident.

Incident which, incidentally, fits exactly with the theory I was attempting to elaborate on this thread: it was a perfect example. Thank you for bringing it back up from under the cobwebs :-) .



Aswad -> RE: Are women born to be bitches? (2/8/2008 10:08:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

I thought men would punch each other then get a beer.  Everyone knows that men are physical; chicks are verbal.


A punch is a finite response, with clear boundaries in space and time; the downside is sometimes someone will get injured.

A verbal fight is an infinite response, bounded neither in space, nor in time, or even in scope; the downside is an exercise for the reader.

Health,
al-Aswad.



kittinSol -> RE: Are women born to be bitches? (2/8/2008 10:15:40 AM)

A verbal joust can be more brutal than a physical one; something chicks seem to excel at.



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