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RE: Are the Democrats Tearing Apart? - 2/7/2008 2:40:56 PM   
samboct


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OK, live and learn.  Apparently the democrats have their own misinformation campaign going as well, and I was duped.  I just looked up Bush's DFC citation and the medal was awarded in 1946- not decades later as the rumor mill had mongered.  My aoplogies to all- including ex. Pres. Bush for the slight.

However- I read Martin Caidin's account of Johnson's secret fact finding mission for Roosevelt, (surprisingly entitled "The Mission" IIRC) including the flight with the 22nd where he earned that medal.  Nobody turned back early unless it was engine failure and it certainly wasn't on Johnson's plane.  By the time the Marauders were under attack they would stick together for mutual fire support- leaving a formation was considered suicide.  And yes, there was a lot of luck of the draw- Johnson was supposed to fly in the lead airplane, but his buddy (who I think was ill) decided to go, and Johnson gave up his ride and went shotgun with another plane in the squadron.  I haven't read the book in years, so it's possible I could be misremembering some details, but there was no sense that Johnson didn't have guts.

However, does anyone care to explain GWB's record?  Because from what I understand, he made it through pilot training on the Six-shooter, and then was assigned to fhe Florida National Guard (ANG).  The airplane was hot and had a reputation of being tricky to fly- at which point he announced he had to go work on a political campaign.  Somehow this worked- he wasn't sent to Viet Nam, and he wasn't flying the airplane that the taxpayer spent a pretty penny to train him on.  Or is this more democratic misinformation?

Sam

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RE: Are the Democrats Tearing Apart? - 2/7/2008 2:49:34 PM   
KenDckey


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Sam    I think your info on GWB is an oversimplification but pretty much reality

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RE: Are the Democrats Tearing Apart? - 2/7/2008 3:05:18 PM   
DomKen


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Nearly right.

It was the Texas ANG not Florida. He was trained and qualified to fly the F-102 in 1968, the plane was removed from Vietnam service in 1968 so it was unlilely that an F-102 reserve squadron would be deployed to Vietnam even if the the rule against deploying reserve units to Vietnam was changed. His records indicate he missed his flight physical in 1972 and was not flight eligible from july of 1972 until his discharge in 1973. He did request to be transfered to an Alabama ANG unit in 1972 to allow him to work on a senate campaign. This transfer request was refused but he was eventually permitted to due his duty weekends with an AL ANG unit. No records exist showing he ever attended any duty with that unit. Once he wa back in Texas his attendance at duty weekends was apparently very spotty.

Draw any conclusion you want from those facts.

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RE: Are the Democrats Tearing Apart? - 2/7/2008 3:10:23 PM   
KenDckey


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So back to the thread.   With the party so evenly Divided, do you think it will explode?

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RE: Are the Democrats Tearing Apart? - 2/7/2008 3:27:17 PM   
samboct


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Nope

I always thought the democrats referred to their party as "The Big Tent" though?  The real question is will the Dems put up Hillary who I suspect has less chance of beating McCain than Obama, even if she collects more delegates?

Sam

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RE: Are the Democrats Tearing Apart? - 2/7/2008 4:07:01 PM   
DomKen


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If Hilary does not have an absolute majority based on regular delegates the super delegates will be under tremendous pressure to vote for who they perceive as most electable. The oft repeated conservative talking point is that HRC cannot win the general election. However of all the states where primaries have been held Clinton got more votes in all but 2 contests.

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RE: Are the Democrats Tearing Apart? - 2/7/2008 4:48:46 PM   
KenDckey


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What is the current delegate score anyway.   I know it is out therre but I couldn't find it

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RE: Are the Democrats Tearing Apart? - 2/7/2008 11:35:52 PM   
Alumbrado


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http://www.b-26marauderarchive.org/MS/MS1709/MS1709.htm

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/johnson.silver.star/story/storypage.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,,4217043-103681,00.html

Not everything a politician claims is neccessarily true.

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RE: Are the Democrats Tearing Apart? - 2/8/2008 3:20:11 AM   
KenDckey


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The medals have always been controversial.  All the way back to when he was issued them.   He was a US congressman on active duty in a war zone.   Stinks of politicis to me.   Some brown noser working on some military political agenda.   Proof of course will never be discovered.    Can be likend to Did Davy Crocket die during or after the battle of the Alamo?   Depends on whose journal you read and if you believe the journal is real.   Either way, he died.

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RE: Are the Democrats Tearing Apart? - 2/8/2008 7:44:34 AM   
Alumbrado


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You would want to read the supply logs, where extra supplies were requisitioned for the prisoners taken, to know about the Alamo...

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RE: Are the Democrats Tearing Apart? - 2/8/2008 8:09:30 AM   
samboct


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Al

Seems to me that there's a lot of revision going on long after the fact- very reminiscent of the Swiftboating of Kerry.
But let me put a few more things in context about LBJ climbing into that airplane-
1)  The B-26 was not a popular airplane at the time.  During training, men often referred to the airplane as the Baltimore Whore (the wings provided no visible means of support, and Martin was in Baltimore) and commented about "two a day in Tampa Bay" during training when people were crashing.  Eventually it was shown that the training was inadequate but that was long after June, 1942.
2)  Lae- in contrast to some of the nonsense on the internet, was one of the major Japanese strongholds at the time and the Japanese had overwhelming air superiority.
3)  Maintenance on these airplanes was chewing gum and chicken wire.  The Southwest Pacific was at the long end of a torturous supply line and Germany had first priority.  There were a number of crashes when a heavily laden B-26 would lose an engine on takeoff although pilots in the 22nd eventually figured out what to do.  These airplanes were patched up wrecks and many of the men suffered horribly from dysentery and other tropical illnesses- not exactly confidence inspiring.
4)  Johnson AFAIK was untrained in aerial combat- he couldn't do a damn thing except watch and these were indeed, very risky missions.
5)  In an aside- this was the airplane that Truman had a hard on for- he desperately tried to kill it.  There was a WWII Truman commission, and canceling the deployment of this airplane was one of its major conclusions.  He didn't succeed, thankfully, because the B-26 went on to have a successful career in both Europe and the Pacific.  However, when the Air Force was established in 1947 and there was a renumbering scheme- the A-26 Invader was given the designation of B-26 as the B-26 was stricken from the inventory.  It's the only time this has happened, and some would suggest that this was Truman's final revenge against this airplane.

Thus it took a certain amount of guts just to climb into the airplane.  It would have been trivial for Johnson to write up the results that these units were horribly ill equipped, yet bringing the fight to the enemy while suffering horrific losses while keeping his ass firmly in a chair on the ground, but he wanted to see things for himself.  That none of those articles pointed this fact out clearly leads me to conclude that their biases have overcome their attempts at "fact-finding".  YMMV.

In terms of relevance to the current thread- it's kind of interesting that the same problems continually resurface in US politics.  Kerry's swiftboating critics quickly ignore the fact that those too were risky missions.  Is it my imagination or is it generally the Republicans calling into question the wartime credentials of the Democrats?  OK, my gaffe about Bush 1 earlier in this thread aside?


Sam

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RE: Are the Democrats Tearing Apart? - 2/8/2008 8:29:36 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

Thus it took a certain amount of guts just to climb into the airplane.


Then you should have no trouble explaining why everyone didn't get a Silver Star, instead of just the well connected politician riding along as a passenger.

Unless of course, it is easier to not ask the inconvenient questions.

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RE: Are the Democrats Tearing Apart? - 2/8/2008 9:25:19 AM   
samboct


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Geez Al

That's a ridiculous comment.  Nobody ever said that getting medals was a fair and equitable process- you had to do something while the brass was watching.  If not, you got a TS card.  Or maybe the difference in between being a volunteer and being ordered?  IIRC, until Kenney showed up in SWPA, medals were few and far between.  Were there plenty of cases of heroism that deserved medals?  You bet.  Were they awarded?  Hell no....This is why I bellyache about the revisionist second guessing about who deserves what medal- I think it cheapens the accomplishments of those who sacrificed and died fighting for this country.  How many CMH awardees have said that they're accepting this medal on behalf of all of those who weren't recognized?  Overall, my viewpoint is that troops who got handed medals odds are deserved to get them, but it certainly doesn't mean that those who didn't get handed gongs weren't brave men.  This is one of those cases where having a little faith in the system pays larger rewards than being too critical.

Sam 

< Message edited by samboct -- 2/8/2008 9:30:02 AM >

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RE: Are the Democrats Tearing Apart? - 2/8/2008 9:44:44 AM   
Owner59


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This thread is drifting nicely.....

Can anyone show how the dems are "tearing apart"?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

FYI to conservatives,we like our slate of candidates .

And many of us(normal average American democrats) don`t think that McCain is awful.

It`s going to be McCain,unless "the Gipper" rises from the dead.

Get used to it.

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RE: Are the Democrats Tearing Apart? - 2/8/2008 9:54:18 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

That's a ridiculous comment.


No amount of spin to maintain partisan loyalty to a fiction is going to actually change the facts.
LBJ didn't 'sacrifice and die fighting for his country', he didn't even see combat on that flight, while other members of the sortie did.

Politicians lie. All of them.

LBJ, like any career politician/con artist was a pathological liar.
He lied about shooting down 14 Zeros, he lied about earning a Silver Star instead of getting it by calling in political favors, he lied about Tonkin, the War on Povery, the Great Society, and everything else...it was his non-stop modus operandi his whole life...just like Bush, Kerry, Nixon, Clinton, and the rest.

And expecting to be 'rewarded' for swallowing such BS is precisely the problem.

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RE: Are the Democrats Tearing Apart? - 2/8/2008 9:56:06 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

This thread is drifting nicely.....

Can anyone show how the dems are "tearing apart"?


Same way they always have...

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RE: Are the Democrats Tearing Apart? - 2/8/2008 10:09:14 AM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

This thread is drifting nicely.....

Can anyone show how the dems are "tearing apart"?


Same way they always have...


So you`re an oppinion guy,like KedDckey.Got it.

I was asking for something of substance,though.

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RE: Are the Democrats Tearing Apart? - 2/8/2008 10:13:17 AM   
Alumbrado


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You don't want anything of substance, or you would have addressed the points already raised, you are trolling for people to take your unsupported assertions as gospel.

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RE: Are the Democrats Tearing Apart? - 2/8/2008 10:30:39 AM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

You don't want anything of substance, or you would have addressed the points already raised, you are trolling for people to take your unsupported assertions as gospel.


Projecting,...much?

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RE: Are the Democrats Tearing Apart? - 2/8/2008 10:36:45 AM   
KenDckey


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Now Now guys   can't we all be friends?   LOL

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